Carving on Ice

[Erik J]

I ride mostly ice at my home mountain here on the East Coast.

I'm always looking to improve so I'd like to get a thread going on what people have found to best handle hard conditions.

Looking for technique mostly, there are quite a few best board threads already.

What are the fine details that you have found to top off your carving skill - all the little things that help to really rail?

[JJFluff]

This probably won't help much as far as describing technique but I find the days I struggle are the days that I don't go for it.

Being tentative entering a turn never works out right. You need to have confidence entering and drive into the turn even on the hard stuff that you think might cause you to lose the edge. When you hold back your body position is wrong and not where it needs to be. The place where it is on those perfect snow days.

So my best advise, be confident and trust the edge, ride consistently both on bulletproof and soft groom.

[carvedog]

early, round, smooth. And lots of retraction at the bottom of the turn.

not that we really have that much ice out here.

[Erik J]

This probably won't help much as far as describing technique but I find the days I struggle are the days that I don't go for it.

Being tentative entering a turn never works out right. You need to have confidence entering and drive into the turn even on the hard stuff that you think might cause you to lose the edge. When you hold back your body position is wrong and not where it needs to be. The place where it is on those perfect snow days.

So my best advise, be confident and trust the edge, ride consistently both on bulletproof and soft groom.

Brain techniques counts for everything! I think you have very sound advice here.

Just yesterday I noticed that I wasn't quite "on it", so I stopped, took a look around, took a deep breath. On the very next turn I noticed that I wasn't looking into the turns enough. I found that just simply looking farther into the turn, my rear leg automatically stayed with the turn more, and kind of "stuck" the last 1/3 of the turn. Yet another lesson for me that focus is everything.

[Jack M]

This post will get harpooned for sure. The only way I can get it done on ice on toeside is to really emphasize dropping the hip in and down, leveling the shoulders, and yes, facing the nose. If my hip isn't down, it's game over. Only way I can see to get there is facing the nose. My right hand (I'm goofy) usually ends up on the side of my front boot cuff. Heeside is less of an issue, and I'm more of a face the bindings guy on that side.

But yeah, take a shorter board out of the quiver, minimize time in transitions, get turns started early, and drop the hammer. Gotta commit early, fully, and drive hard. If you let the board run at all, it will get going too fast and then you're done.

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

[Erik J]

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

Thanks Jack, I'm comfortable on ice but I'd like to get better.

[queequeg]

early, round, smooth. And lots of retraction at the bottom of the turn.

I find that works well for me, seems to me that once your edge is set on the ice, it is in there pretty hard so the problems I encounter are usually during the exit stage because the edges feel "sticky" during the release when your body is traveling back over the edge of your board and so it isn't as easy to guide the board beneath you with the same certainty and confidence. If you unweight the board faster and more aggressively by retracting more thoroughly and rapidly, this seems like less of a problem.

Otherwise it seems to me that when I'm riding on ice and doing well it is because I am initiating my turns smoothly, and not too aggressively. It seems to me that you have to feed the board into the turn very accurately when you initiate, but once you are in the turn you can still punch out the turn pretty hard. Whenever I'm riding on ice and not doing well at it, it feels like the problem is always in my initiation - standing up too tall, not paying attention to the feedback the edge is giving me, not giving my sidecut radius the time to track into its groove before pushing against the board.

And yeah - Angulation reeeeaaaally affects my riding on ice too ... I think it was a really icy day when I first figured out what was so magical about proper angulation. Night and day. All day I couldn't do a damn thing right, and I remembered reading jacks angulation exercises where you are reaching for the boot and tried it - I've never seen a single technical detail have such a profound on my performance. Angulation is pure magic. Before that I just didn't get what was so important about angulation.

But this is an area where I could still use a lot of attention. Some days I can dial it on ice, other days ... not so much. And yeah, from what I've heard you're the one that should be providing the advice on this subject!

[Mike T]

This post will get harpooned for sure. The only way I can get it done on ice on toeside is to really emphasize dropping the hip in and down, leveling the shoulders, and yes, facing the nose. If my hip isn't down, it's game over. Only way I can see to get there is facing the nose. My right hand (I'm goofy) usually ends up on the side of my front boot cuff. Heeside is less of an issue, and I'm more of a face the bindings guy on that side.

If you face the bindings on I believe it is still possible to drop the hip, it's just that if you drop the hip from that position then you're dropping it behind the waist of the board rather then even with it. Does having that hip behdin the waist cause problems? This is where I need expert help... seems like it should still work...

What's your opinion on bringing the "heelside hand" (right if goofy, left if regular") across the board? In your favorite heelside pic the toeside hand is well across the board. On toeside it seems to me that bringing the heelside hand across the board (and down) helps keep the shoulders level hip down position nicely, but doing it quickly (i.e. as quickly as you need to for ice carving) is a skill that I have not yet mastered.

Edit: when I say across the board, I mean "bring the hand past the boot rather than touching it". Essentially, the toeside analog of what you;re doing heelside in your avatar.

[Jeffrey Day]

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

You know Jack, I was thinking the same thing!

Eric, I've seen you ride @ Sugarloaf on conditions that I stuggle with, and probably always will, and you were rippin' it!

This is a great topic. Like you, I'd love to get better at carving on ice. Sh!t, I'd be happy to get more proficient(@ spelling!) on skied off, end of day snow.

[Jack M]

What's your opinion on bringing the "heelside hand" (right if goofy, left if regular") across the board? In your favorite heelside pic the toeside hand is well across the board. On toeside it seems to me that bringing the heelside hand across the board (and down) helps keep the shoulders level hip down position nicely, but doing it quickly (i.e. as quickly as you need to for ice carving) is a skill that I have not yet mastered.

Edit: when I say across the board, I mean "bring the hand past the boot rather than touching it". Essentially, the toeside analog of what you;re doing heelside in your avatar.

I only do that when I'm really trying to lay it out on toeside, on good snow. When trying to be careful on ice, I think that move is not a wise one. Too easy to end up with your chest facing the snow that way, an then you're effed.

[Hotbeans]

I'll offer this up for comment:

When I'm on ice, I've got two common issues that, if I'm NOT doing this, I wash out, skid, or hop the edge (which REALLy f(&k'd up my ankle the two weeks ago when I was on the Virus. Simply due to too much compression force when the edge caught again..and again..and again. still hurts.)

1. reaching for the boot cuff (which I correlate to proper angulation)

2. maintaining my cg directly over the carving edge in a *mostly* seated position. IE: low and stacked.

When I'm on the coiler (short-radius board), I can use my legs to kind of pop up out of the carve during transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex while feeding the board through the turn. Tricky because keeping my cg directly over the edge while all this is going on typically requires more finesse/balance than I've got going on at the moment. Fear of ankle/faceplanting keeps the focus on high alert.

[KingCrimson]

transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex

Can you clarify where in the turn you start to compress?

This is a bit like what I was talking about in the EC thread.

I was taught that carving anything can be viewed as a merrygoround. As the horses go around, they move up and down. Synchronize this properly with where you are in the turn, and you'll be railing.

This picture from BoosterTwo in Jack's "Cross Over, Cross Under, Cross Through" shows the rider just past the apex of the turn, beginning to compress (the first capture shows near-full extension) so that he has somewhere to go when he unweights the board, shown by the little "wheelie"

This is an issue I still have. I believe I am still doing cross-over turns. Simply rolling the knees over the board would do nothing for me in a turn; my merrygoround timing is off.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Hotbeans]

Thoughts? That pic illustrates a Hero-Snow Hoedown! I thought we were talking about riding ice?!!

I start my compression once the edge 'finds' it's track in the carve and I have my balance centered. So, probably first 1/8 or 1/6 into the turn. I start to come out of it when my cg is moving rearward (but still over edge) after apex getting ready for extension for transition (maybe 3/4ths or 4/5ths through 'half-c' carve?). I (and this may only apply to my riding!) extend my legs a bit to unweight the edge, transition cg forward (or board back if you like), roll board over to next edge, gradually weight new front edge.

[Pow]

I find the most important part about riding ice is to angulate! and also putting much more cross-under into the cross-through helps as well. I always miss the "totally laid" feeling when im riding ice, but anything close to a double arm carve is impossible to do on ice with any confidence. I find that i wind up bringing my board to my inside hand and my outside hand basically never touches the snow because my body stays above the board and doesnt extend outside like we tend to do in good snow. Not to doubt your ability but i dont think youll ever successfully rail like in your avatar picture on ice, Eric! Thats snow style, not ice;)

[KingCrimson]

Thoughts? That pic illustrates a Hero-Snow Hoedown! I thought we were talking about riding ice?!!

I start my compression once the edge 'finds' it's track in the carve and I have my balance centered. So, probably first 1/8 or 1/6 into the turn. I start to come out of it when my cg is moving rearward (but still over edge) after apex getting ready for extension for transition (maybe 3/4ths or 4/5ths through 'half-c' carve?). I (and this may only apply to my riding!) extend my legs a bit to unweight the edge, transition cg forward (or board back if you like), roll board over to next edge, gradually weight new front edge.

Snow conditions aside, it does show angulation and cross through, along with weighting.

See this is where I'm confused. You unweight with extension, the rider in the photo clearly unweights with retraction.

Also, you extend AFTER the apex, not before, which is how I have been taught. Also, you get forward before the edge change? I always use the tail to throw me into the next turn. Just ask any of the SoCal carvers, sometimes I end up rocketing skywards and crash down

So many ways to get down the mountain and they all work. Man, carving is cool.

[Pow]

you anywhere near albany this friday? ill be riding Jiminy peak on the boarder of Mass tomorrow. That'll definately have some ice you can experiment with!

ohh, and judging by your textbook carving images on BOL, the only tweak that would benefit you on ice in my opinion is to bring your upper body in and up and keep it over your board instead of extending it out, more simmilar to mike T's body position in his avatar photo.

[Ian M]

See this is where I'm confused. You unweight with extension, the rider in the photo clearly unweights with retraction.

Also, you extend AFTER the apex, not before, which is how I have been taught. Also, you get forward before the edge change? I always use the tail to throw me into the next turn. Just ask any of the SoCal carvers, sometimes I end up rocketing skywards and crash down

Maybe this will help clarify...when I see ice or hard snow, I just crouch straight down, lowering my shoulders and body before starting any carving. Then when I initiate the carve, I am extending my legs out, adding pressure until the apex. Lots of angulation here through the apex, then legs pull the board back toward me and all I'm thinking about is how low my shoulders were at the beginning. The board crosses under me with my legs very compressed, shoulders not coming much above where they were in the carve.

In my head it is so much simpler, because all I think about is keeping my shoulders low. Everything else is auto. Add to that Carvedog's "early, round, smooth" advice, and it definitely works for me! Make any sense?

[KingCrimson]

Understand 100% The thing is, on the GS board, I cannot carve if I'm not like that. The board will not hook up, and if it does, well, good luck decambering it! Again, that video of me a month ago shows a good way to make a badass board seem very boring. If I have learned anything about carving, that is it.

It works for me, it's fun being that low and feeling just plain aggressive. I feel like I'm playing defensive line for 4 hours straight but never get hurt. I LOVE that sensation of being low.

This is what confused me about what Hotbeans was talking about, he pretty much seems to be the opposite. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

[Jack M]

1. reaching for the boot cuff (which I correlate to proper angulation)

yes.

2. maintaining my cg directly over the carving edge in a *mostly* seated position. IE: low and stacked.

When I'm on the coiler (short-radius board), I can use my legs to kind of pop up out of the carve during transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex while feeding the board through the turn. Tricky because keeping my cg directly over the edge while all this is going on typically requires more finesse/balance than I've got going on at the moment. Fear of ankle/faceplanting keeps the focus on high alert.

You don't want to do this on ice. Big up-and-down motions upset your cg and make it tougher to maintain balance. Cross-through keeps your cg quiet and steady, like the suspension of a car.

[Hotbeans]

Jack, I hear what your saying on this and I agree. For me, though, this is a different tool to use. I relate your reference to what I term "surf-style" and does certainly involve smooth, quiet upper body movements. Maybe if I describe it as keeping low ("sitting in the back seat") and rolling the board underneath me to make the transitions with very little dynamic movements? (just using angulation of knee's and hips to transition from edge to edge.)

I also have found my previous description useful in that 'compressing' in the apex seems to lock in the edge much better (read: higher G's!) and the shift of cg rearwards and then extending allows for a much more dynamic (tighter, faster) carve. If I pull it off correctly, I can pop out of the carve and just feel the edge *crunch* into the next turn.

I really need someone who can shoot a decent vid segment. Might try tomorrow.

[John Gilmour]

Stay vertically over the edge in all phases of the turn. It's a bit tricky a sort of contortionist move...especially for crossing under turns.

Make sure your cants + toe heel lift are perfect. And I mean perfect. Consistent Ice is the perfect opportunity to dial in your bindings for their optimal settings.

Tuned edges- of course don't skid at all -to keep them sharp.

Level shoulders.

be changing direction before the fall line.

[Erik J]

Make sure your cants + toe heel lift are perfect. And I mean perfect. Consistent Ice is the perfect opportunity to dial in your bindings for their optimal settings.

Any do-it-yourself suggestions that I could use to dial in better?

I'm on AF600's (M28), Madd 170 and TD1's with 3 deg toe lift, 6 deg heel lift about 65 deg front and back (basically keeping my toe and heel just over the edge). I have no canting - my boots are bolted together at the hinge. I ride in walk mode.

Would you explain the "Gilmour bias" a little more?

[John Gilmour]

After I've been dialing in so many people with TD1's on 170's you likely are close to it. Just understand that by the time the snow that is being cut reaches your rear toe... you could hang over a bit more without booting out as opposed to your front heel. Because there is less edge cutting in front of your lead heel.

Move your toe and heel carriages about 1-2 (preferably 2) holes closer to the toe side edge on your rear boot and flatten to about 60- 62 degrees. (Look carefully at your binding lug overhand on your td1's you can go a little flatter with Cateks (and you can add some lift and cant).. which would give you a bit more power... its just that you probably should be on a 18.5-19.5 wide board with 28.0 to be optimized. Likely 19.0.

The TD3s might also solve your problem with the bail lugs. I think... but I have to see one to tell.

Move your front boot carriages about 1 hole closer to the heel side edge and hopefully you won't boot out at all. Try not to go over 67 degrees. if you can drop to 63 degrees... that likely would be better. Its worth it to belt sand your rear boot tip a bit...if you feel so inclined.

Now heel the board over on the carpet flexed so the belly is on contact.. you should be able to get the board over to 55-60 degrees without boot out.

That's it...pretty simple.

Now ride with more bias in your riding ie. use the rear toe more for toe side and your front heel more for heelside.

The board becomes two mini siamese snowblades.... the heelside one centered under your front heel and the toe side one centered under you 4th toe.

As you shift your weight to front heel and rear toe... be aware that you feed the dollar differently for each. The rear toe dollar feed is more radical. You also have a lot of board to feed in from the front during a toe side turn....it feels weird.."alien" at first.. but then is super effective once you get the hang of it.

This "Gilmour Bias" helps even more with soft boots....and really is needed if you expect to power up at all with soft boots.

since each pressure point is the start of the perfect board curve.. you have to use the other foot to feed the rest of the board into that curve you started. DO THIS BEFORE YOU HIT THE FALL LINE.

So for the heelside cheat.... put your back hand on your rear boot..

for toeside cheat put your lead hand on your front boot and press down during a carve.

Keeping your bias in your boot cuffs means slightly more forward lean in your rear boot and less in your front. that way your leg shaft of your rear foot is closer to the toe edge and your front leg shaft is closer to the heel edge..

Are you in Aspen?..I could show you instead..

"Gilmour Bias" also makes it easier to balance laterally on the board... you don't feel like you are riding a thin center line tightrope.. instead it makes the tightrope wider in feeling while making the board feel narrower ... you can ride the board "Middleless" and directly transfer your weight to the edge by stepping... and make the middle of a fat board start to disappear. You know the feeling of carving a jet ski or sea-doo back and forth???.... it's that steeping feeling... but not as exaggerated.

[Jack M]

Jack, I hear what your saying on this and I agree. For me, though, this is a different tool to use. I relate your reference to what I term "surf-style" and does certainly involve smooth, quiet upper body movements. Maybe if I describe it as keeping low ("sitting in the back seat") and rolling the board underneath me to make the transitions with very little dynamic movements? (just using angulation of knee's and hips to transition from edge to edge.)

I also have found my previous description useful in that 'compressing' in the apex seems to lock in the edge much better (read: higher G's!) and the shift of cg rearwards and then extending allows for a much more dynamic (tighter, faster) carve. If I pull it off correctly, I can pop out of the carve and just feel the edge *crunch* into the next turn.

I really need someone who can shoot a decent vid segment. Might try tomorrow.

I *think* you're talking about a cross-over transition there. If you can pull it off on ice, then great. It's a fun way to ride and as you surely know you can even get air between turns this way. However, a cross-through transition results in the least displacement of the cg, and therefore greater stability, which will be helpful on ice. This is the goal of all suspension systems. Cross-through requires compressing at the turn transition (edge change), like in that sequence of boostertwo.

[John Gilmour]

............+1

cross unders on a short board w/ sc tight radius is a really easy way to control speed w/o dulling your edges on ice and frozen granular