Ultimate powder board

[Jon Dahl]

Raxskis, cute but I am not sold...does bring out the question I raised about doing more with less. My original question was just that, not what everyones different favorite powder stick was. And it is a bit O.T., but ok 'cause it shows different concepts.

[philw]

O.T.

a) WRONG: Skis in general if long and wide enough are quicker than any snowboard, just look at races where both skiers and boarders participate.

Yes, what you've said is of course wrong. It's not however what I said.

Time to leave you to it.

[bobdea]

raxskis, looking at that video it looks like skiboards/snowblades for powder.

the skiers have the same look while riding (barely in control) <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHq43mcdLzE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHq43mcdLzE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

IMHO fine for very specific use like a 250 cm snowboard or a 1200 horse power car but that's about it

[Dr D]

uuuuh skiis faster than boards in deep powder????? what physics class did you take? you are in it to your knees on skiis thats a lot of drag. a big swallowtail on top on the other hand can really move.

[mrresearchguy]

I rode a Spearhead all last season on a variety of surface conditions from deep powder to icy hardpack and was extremely satisfied with its performance. Combined with my Catek FR2 Pro Limited bindings and Burton Driver X boots, I felt like a far more capable rider than my limited skills would otherwise suggest.

[b0ardski]

but I'm guesing the boards an '86

[Jon Dahl]

As thread originator, I am going to call a halt to the drivel, and ask for this thread to come back to the original thread topic. I know it is not just you, but that last post was worthless as far as the original post's request is concerned. Raxskis might be somewhat o/t, but they do show some original thought. Ape man on Burton, well, c'mon now. Lets get real....and no, I am not surly either online or in person.

[b0ardski]

Has anyone tried this board, I've heard good things about the Atomics but haven't been on one yet. Would have bid on it but didn't have the cash, it went for $250.

beautiful board, I have a thing for woodgrain

[nils]

back to original

Felix: frankly those raxskis are all but a good tool for powder and control in power... you can bring yours to the Derby in la Grave this year and we'll see how they perform :). Its true that Derby's are always won by skiiers on 2m-2,10m long skiis performing at least 15-20% faster than skiiers, but its generally because there is always slower places when the skiiers can push and do the duck walk to gain speed where a snowboard is stuck.

Those short powder snowblades are maybe fun, but they will never ( video shows the poor control) be as efficient as a snowboard or powder skiies...

To the topic: its all about what terrain you ride again ( should be kind of concluding theme...) big open faces need longer boards, steeper terrain needs a bit shorter, and trees and more difficult terrain needs something in between...( my opinion). ST are efficient ( i am talking abou 185+ boards) in big open faces and are versatile enough to carve a bit and go home on various bumps and conditions, fish looks perfect when it is turny and smaller turns, and all the rest works ( a door would perform ok in powder i guess if used right)...

N

[Jon Dahl]

I would state the most obvious thoughts on this topic:

1) Big swallowtails for deep unconsolidated open runs. They rule in this arena, with anything else second.

2) Big freeride boards like Tankers work better for a variety of conditions.

3) Short pow specific boards designed for trees will do better in the tight stuff, can do ok on big faces in the right hands.

4) I will only find out if my proposition will work if I build a board embracing the base concepts I have outlined, then go riding. Really doesn't sound too bad to be forced to design/execute and test. Sorta like putting a kid in a candy store and telling them to eat...

If anyone has specific info (design, extensive test riding, etc.) on rockered powder boards, and would like to share it, please post up here. We will be waiting, eagerly, 'cause summer is killin' us!

[svr]

Jon,

here is a little info on my secret project (will be completed in November) as it addresses some of your concerns:

- It is a 200

- Has rocker in both tip and tail

- shape is tapered and is based on both a tanker and a swallowtail

And that is all i will share until I have it in my hands and can share a pic of it.

I am enjoying seeing everyones comments and all of the thoughts on what would be a good powder board.

cheers,

sandy

[scottishboardracer]

Got to recomend the Elan Ascent. I've got the 169 and its great for narrow chutes or in the trees. It got 30mm taper, same as a Burton Fish but just being that bit longer it floats even better. Still light enough to hike with easily. My other pow board is a 198 Undertaker, awesome on big faces, but a real pain to hike with due to size and weight.

[mprovenc]

I own a Rosignol Undertaker 185 and purchased it specifically for out west. I'm 6' 195lbs and felt that the 196 would have been too long for my size.

Two years ago was my first adventure in Utah and had the pleasure to ride it on the last day in a great storm... Flotation was no problem with the wide shovel and the split tail felt great when turning. I rode with hardboots and burton race plates as i've been riding plates specifically since the mid 90's and did not want to travel with two sets of boots... I felt it was a great application and was able to ejoy two great powder days in Utah last year. No deep tech talk here, all i know is that i'm glad i spent the money and rode it in all kinds of terrain. Tighter trees got a bit harder to manouver the 185cm board, but all in all i think it kicks A$$ and can't wait to get on it again!

Marc

[Jon Dahl]

Not sure how this fits in here, but as we all know the schtubbies have changed how we think of board length in carving. If you would have asked here about that idea in 2000, you would get a lot different input on the subject as compared to now. Sure, long boards are stable at speed in unconsolidated pow, but as design and materials have changed in the last few years have we put on blinders when we look at powder snow? This is the core challenge that I offered up in the beginning, and am not convinced that length is the only way to have that. Just some thoughts, as I ponder this.

[felix]

Schtubbys have much more running length compared to a normal board tip while not being much longer in the gates. That's the main reason for me why there are so widely used in the worldcup and then trickled down. For the same turnability they offer more stability. If you don't want to go backwards you better design a powder board that has only one tip (like a Swallowtail). Same reason why raceboards are squared.

The faster you go, other parameters non changed, the longer the board should be. The tighter you have to turn, the shorter. As in a forest you need to float and turn easily, boards with lots of taper perform great. That's the reason I'ld never get a burton fish, not enough taper at all compared to a Never Summer Summit or a LTB Ultrataper that has 4cm and the inserts even more to the back than old Fishs. However you could go longer on any tapered board, as long as the swing weight to the front stays the same without loosing much manouverability.

Those factors taken into account, I love the handmade boards by Powderequipment. They weight one kg less for the same length compared with the lightest other boards. Not that great on harder snow, but if the snow is soft or you have powder there is nothing as stable while still being very easy to turn, even if it gets tight. Off course with the board being superlightweight - you have to take care of it much more.

[nils]

Jon: i agree that lots of things have changed...but basics of snow not that much ( level of riders has increased yes too)..

As for lenght: what you get in a 195cm ST for example with a stiff flex pattern ( not the nitros for example), is also a board that is able to whistand very difficult terrains at various speed: the huge nose acts as a bumper and eats all the bumps, cruds etc that you get after an avalanche, or after the snow has been tracked a lot: its a bit like those new high speed 4WD that just float while bumpers do the work.

I'm not sure a shorter board aka 165-170cm range will have the lenght to master this ( short bumper in a way)..The main difference between modern ST and the Winterstick for example is in the flex and how the flex makes it possible to carve, absorb bumps, relaunch ( flattens the board back) after turns quick etc.. The shape is basically the same as its been for the last 25 years.

Also a big plus of the ST is its STail...faster you go more control you get like a fin in the water but no drag. I have tried a long freeride once ( not as long as 195 ok) and felt the faster i went, the less easy it was to be on the tail for it opposed pressure and would not sink...

cant wait for snow

Nils :)

[b0ardski]

Finally, someone has improved on the 15 year old Voile splitboard interface, on a board shaped like the halfgun. http://www.atomicsnowboarding.com/index.php?id=poacher

If this system could be made for hardshells, I'd be all over it.

I just bought a 169 atomic radon ct V-tail, can't wait to get it on the snow:1luvu:

[b0ardski]

Replaces the osin 3800 which I found too soft for all around with too wide stance options.

This board has 9 out of 10 stiffness for carving, & enough tail for switch.

[BlueB]

She's a beauty. Real veneer or just wood-grain print?

What's the waist / scr on it?

[b0ardski]

except the light color inset but I prefer this to most of the graphics I've seen:biggthump

135.9 eff edge

31.1 tip

25.8 wst

30.5 tail

9/8.75/8.5 progressive tip to tail

9 0f 10 on atomics stiffness scale

I hope the snappy flex stays good for a while.

Anybody have a 1st hand review of the Atomics??

[utahcarver]

A recent sighting in Salty Peaks reveals a new player on the slopes. I spotted a swallowtail called a Powder Surfer made by DNAZ. I'm guessing the size to be a 185 to a 191cm length. The nose and shoulders were BIG (35-45cm) and the flex was very soft in the nose and tails. I asked for a price and was told that when the production models arrive (mid-October?) the price was going to be $650 US plus and that the board that I was holding was not for sale as it had something wrong with it. I asked what was wrong with the board and the sales-dude didn't know.

I went into Salty Peaks to fondle several swallowtails and make a final decision on what I would buy for this upcoming season. Now, I'm on hold until this board shows up in a few weeks. I'll have a camera on me next time I'm in Salty and I'll post some pics.

Mark

[Dr D]

Not sure how this fits in here, but as we all know the schtubbies have changed how we think of board length in carving. If you would have asked here about that idea in 2000, you would get a lot different input on the subject as compared to now. Sure, long boards are stable at speed in unconsolidated pow, but as design and materials have changed in the last few years have we put on blinders when we look at powder snow? This is the core challenge that I offered up in the beginning, and am not convinced that length is the only way to have that. Just some thoughts, as I ponder this.

I think you are right that a change in thinking is on the way for some. I have and ride a 196 nitro drew hicken swallowtail on the really deep days.

I also ride a 168 osin 4807 from the front binding forward they are almost identical in rocker and length. The biggest difference is that the tails are chopped short on the osin. I think a directional board approach has to concentrate on nose design and the long rocker is the key. the osin is stiff out as far as the effective edge extends and then soft to the tip whereas the nitro is soft all over. I think the stiff effective edge is important for control especially on a shorter board. the nitro is screaming fast and stable at speed but harder to control at slower speeds.

I know daveredman loves his prior swallowtail that is a little narrower and stiffer than the regular version. Its a hardboot design but I think the stiffer edges make it more controlable across the speed range without losing the high speed stability the long tails provide.

for all of them a long rocker soft nose is crucial. the long rocker keeps the nose off the snow in a carve as well negating most of the soft nose problems found in carving.

my .02:lurk:

[photodad2001]

This would have to be awesome in some deep dry powder.

edit: Nitro Gun 181

[Dr D]

The local powder mafia has numerous examples of these in several lengths. The 181 is a great all around pow board. the longer versions require deeper dumps to really enjoy.

here's nick on a 181 out of bounds big mtn

how do I embed these things?

[Jon Dahl]

This would have to be awesome in some deep dry powder.

edit: Nitro Gun 181

This is basically what I have right now, the silver version.