Ultimate powder board

[Jack M]

the notch in the swallowtail allows the tail to sink a bit - keeping the nose up. you can do the same with a pintail, but it takes away from the effective edge when on the hard pack. The pintail design works well with a reverse sidecut (like a surfboard) but would be very difficult to design into a traditional sidecut board.

Right, swallowtail works if the board has to be useable on hardpack at all. That way the board can have some positive sidecut while still reducing the surface area of the tail. But the Burton Fish shape is sort of a pin tail. I'm more interested in the theoretical "powder only" machine. I have one of the original Skurfers, I want to try it in powder some day.

mine is the cool yellow one, not this P-town edition:

But that's the shape of it. It's about 165cm long. Wouldn't it be something if this is the shape Jon Dahl is looking for?

One of the main differences here is that the wave is moving

I can't imagine why that matters, but I'm not a surfer. On powder, the rider is moving, so same thing as far as I can tell.

[Rob Stevens]

I have ridden most of these boards, with and without bindings.

I'll tell you, if you want to feel a boards natural turning characteristics, ride it like a surfboard...

Banana's? I found that he nose wandered on them like crazy. The middle of the board sits up so high, it flat pivots like a base high board on hardpack. I did not like that much, but some might as it can come around really quickly. Maybe too quickly. Reduce sidecut? OK. Reverse sidecut? You want to know what you're getting into here. If you can demo, I would.

Fish? It doesn't really plane, which makes it very manageable in tight, steep areas. In the open, it is a bit slow. My favourite NoBoard, but I wouldn't ride it with bindings.

Malolo? A bit better, but not so great (like the fish) for riding the not-so-fresh areas between the fresh.

Big ST's? Sick, if you have the room to let them go. If I was above the trees, or in open trees, I would ride one... Especially off a heli. Long ones are a hassle to vertical, or cross-carry in a pack, or on a sled, so keep that in mind if you plan to do any hiking or rooping.

Despite what the small sticks of the world may say, however, there isn't much substitute for length. A bigger, spooned nose so you can stand on your front foot without pearling and a regular, or shorter tail with little taper and no swallow so it won't sink unless you ask it to, but stay on the surface when you stay centred, like for powder landings.

Those two points are very important to me. I want a board that turns like it would on harder snow. Level, but still able to take front or rear foot inputs. You can do this with big swallows, but you loose some swingability in tight.

I would lean towards BobDea's and others Tanker 170+ reco.

[refried]

So cool reading about pow, sitting here in Europe at +35C. Bring it on boys!

Just few brief thughts:

Open stuff - got to be a swally. Nothing compares in speed and feeling.

Bring the trees into the picture and it changes completely. Something shorter, softer has to be better. I'm kinda ok only on 3800 169. It's probably one of the most versatile boards.

Tanker is great in almost all conditions, but simply sucks in the trees - just too big, at least for our tight steep stuff.

I have pretty high hopes for a Hammer split-tail (not a swallowtail) that I picked last year but never tried. It has big soft nose, freeride type tail but split to the rear binding. Should be quite manouvrable in trees.

4807 is close to what could be an ideal all-round pow board. Maybe if it just had a slightly upturned tail for emergency switch and a length in between the 2 existing ones. I still find the 178 too big for the trees. Big soft boat nose acts as if you had rocker and the stiff tail will carve up a storm when needed.

Verdict: There's no perfect pow board. You always have to compromise on something. Pick the right board for conditions...

Looking forward to come back t BC and to the beggining of the winter...

My best board for for the conditions list is very similar to BlueB's list.

A big swallowtail for powder, The Undertaker gets the most use in deep powder and untracked snow but I'll use others as conditions change.

Trees and groomed mix I'll go for the 3800, I'll ride either size depending on my mood.

the 4807 is a great board, I'll break mine out in the afternoon after most of the powder is gone. it's great for getting thru the crud to get to untracked snow then it lets you carve on the groomed trails back to the lift. it's also one of my favorite boards in the trees.

The Tanker is a great all around board that's not as much fun in powder as a swallowtail but does everything well. I should ride mine more.

I haven't picked up any new boards for a while, I've been thinking of a new Snakehead though.

[utahcarver]

Jon,

It might just be me but, the D1 sure looks a lot like an old Winterstick roundtail. Albeit, with updated shape and technology. If the D1 is as agile and fun as the original WS roundtails were, I'd consider going that route. I'd sure like to get my hands on a D1 to test it out (on a deep day, too). The WS's were a 155cm and were very bouncy in the trees, very quick edge to edge. Here's Nat Young learning how to ride one.

Mark

<div><object width="420" height="341"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/k5qnPiQhjmf4RE9PhP&related=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/k5qnPiQhjmf4RE9PhP&related=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="341" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1e76d_nat-young-rides-the-winterstick_extreme">Nat Young rides the Winterstick</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/messire">messire</a></i></div>

[Jon Dahl]

Mark, kinda thinking along the lines of that old Winterstick round tail. W/o the big taper. And add rocker. I may be asking too much... but I don't think so. Jack, nice find! Funny how that looks a bit like the Lib Banana Hammock...no new things under the sun. Big thing for me is it has to trim up, that is key for speed. Tail stuck deep in the pow will kill speed, as in the Fish. Then be stable at speed. And be short enough for trees. I could add length and do that, but the longer it gets, the more cumbersome it is in tighter trees. This would be a pow day only stick, when you have to hit trees to get what is left of the goods. Keep 'er coming!

[Rob Stevens]

svr metioned the Gentem Sticks from Japan.

The one he describes is in the NoBoard team quiver, sent back to Canada compliments of the Gentem'ers after taking them out NoBoarding in Japan.

It is a great ride, but a bit heavy. Very stable but not super lively. Not ideal as a NoBoard, where weight is a huge consideration, but strapped in, the shape is hard to beat.

You can be sure, no one on the hill is going to have one. You'll be on your own there.

[Jack M]

Jon,

It might just be me but, the D1 sure looks a lot like an old Winterstick roundtail. Albeit, with updated shape and technology. If the D1 is as agile and fun as the original WS roundtails were, I'd consider going that route.

don't forget, Winterstick is still in business.... one of the 3 owners has a daughter in my daughter's daycare class. Went to her birthday party and saw his collection. Great guy.

www.winterstick.com

[Rob Stevens]

www.gentemstick.com

Many of you will appreciate the sentiments and outlook of this companys owner / shaper.

[svr]

Sandy:

Still holding that Tanker for you. Will be in touch in October.

Back on topic, the Dupraz 5'5" may work wonders in this size range; I think we are talking about a real surf machine on snow here.

Bola

www.allboardssports.com

303-415-1600

Yes Bola, I still want it...send me an e-mail when you are ready and we will settle the deal.

cheers,

sandy

[tahoetrencher]

Why do you think they call it the "UNDER" taker?

Trimmed out at speed it cannot be seen.

Trees aren't the goal on a bottomless day

They're the commute

[Dr D]

The most versatile that I have ridden for powder is without a doubt the 4807.

The boat nose gives it a surfy feel without compromising the normal sidecut. IT also gives it a very long and soft rocker nose.

the shorty swallow tail could be improved on a little by giving a little rocker for the occasional switch situation.

that said there is nothing like a true swallow tail for screaming down a wide open face.

I think you need to decide what terrain you are going to be riding the most and work from there.

I would like to try a Dupraz shape with split tail and with a short swallowtail.

the spoon nose can be wider without affecting the sidecut provided it happens after the rocker starts on the nose.

love the stiffer board with soft nose concept of the 4807 the most.

[Mike T]

... is one that I acquired cheap enough to not care whether I ding it up or not! I am always thrashing my powder gear. "Skilled and stoopid" mode all the way on powder days.

Both the 4807 1778's I own fit the description well, and no, neither of them is for sale :D

[refried]

I don't think an Undertaker is anything like a Winterstick, they look and ride completely different.

If you ever tried to ride a Winterstick on a groomer you will see a difference

[Jon Dahl]

Is this thread about a Fantasy stick called the ULTIMATE POWDER BOARD

or about what everybody currently has in their quivers?

Riding on groom is totally different of course?

I do not want to try and ride a winterstick on groom...

This is neither. It is about one specific set of parameters, one board to ride deep unconsolidated powder, both tighter trees AND wide open faces. With stability at speed, and still able to slash the tighter stuff. Simple question is; can it be done? Is the tech there to accomplish it? I'd really like to hear from someone who has some time on a rockered board in deep pow, and hear their opinion. Everything I personally have seen leads me to think it is possible to build a board that will do it. As I said before, if it were just big open bowls, I'd break out the 181 Nitro Sabre and go. 2 feet or less, the 192 Tanker comes out, no brainer.

Also, I do like to see what everyone is using as a powder board, unless it is a short Burton twin tip....been there, done that, too.

[refried]

I don't know where you ride but there are very few days that I can ride without having to spend some time on a groomed trail. I don't have access to a helicopter or cat so I have to ride a lift and groomed trails to get to them. having the ability to ride a groomed trail is important.

I haven't found the ultimate powder board but I have a good variety of boards that work well for pnw conditions. I'd like to pick up a Pogo longboard and a Spearhead this season but I don't think they will be the ultimate powder boards either.

Not all powder is the same, If we get dumped on with light snow I'll grab the Winterstick but if it's moisture content is higher and its heavier I'll ride something else.

[tahoetrencher]

:lol::lol::lol:

[utahcarver]

Bola, though it's been years since I've seen Mr. Milovich, I know that he is a very talented and decent human being who is admired and known by many people across the world. My comparison of the roundtail to the D1 was to demonstrate the genius of Dmitri many years ago and to show that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. I've seen Bordy's/Phil's review of the D1 and I trust their judgement. The video 'splains everything, eh?

Jack, I wish Winterstick would bring back the roundtail. I wonder if the Severe Terrain models are their modern-day answers to an old design. Next time you see this guys' collection, could you take pics and post them on BOL? I have no shame when it comes to this kind of stuff. :(

I saw an advertisement today for this weekends upcoming ski/snowboard sales. The newest blurb to sell skis is 'rocker' and 'reverse camber'. I guess what is old is now new. If you were around when (Tom) Sims produced his 'Ultimate' models, all of them had rocker. Of course, they also had skateboard laminated-type constructon. Milovich designed his decks with rocker built into the noses.

So, today when I was about my town, I grabbed an old pair of Wayfarer's to wear in the sunshine instead of my Oakleys to say, "Hey, what's old is new."

Jon, please keep us up informed as to your quest. This is exciting to watch and read about.

Mark

Here's some local boys playing with 'reverse camber' and homemade hammocks.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dl9ObdlK8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dl9ObdlK8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[bobdea]

yea, I guess you mean this undertaker

Hmmmm, looks just like a winterstick, that is original huh!

Maybe you can get this to submarine like a pair of skis in sierra cement

but then you would be on at least a 40 degree slope and of course in a massive avalanche...hence the name undertaker:biggthump

that board is nothing like a winterstick, ride one and you'd see

they look similar but the other swallowtails like the rossis and nitros will pound through crust and wind pack nicely where the winterstick is scary on anything but the lightest of fluff.

John dahl, the more you say the more I think you either need the rossi half gun http://global.skipass.com/gearguide/snowboard/2007/rossignol/Half-Gun.html or a smallish tanker type board with a touch of taper but not much. wider is better in pow so that's something to consider as well.

[Jon Dahl]

Thanks for the 6am entertainment! Notice how short they made those rockered boards? Granted, they weren't going really fast by binding mounted rider standards, but for noboard it was pretty decent.

Bobdea, that is kinda what I am thinking, that length but a wider tip/tail and rockered.

[Jack M]

Jack, I wish Winterstick would bring back the roundtail. I wonder if the Severe Terrain models are their modern-day answers to an old design. Next time you see this guys' collection, could you take pics and post them on BOL? I have no shame when it comes to this kind of stuff.

It would be pretty easy for me to arrange an interview with him and get pics of his collection. It's on my to-do list.

Putting myself in Winterstick's shoes for a minute, I would hazzard a guess that they figure the swally is the only powder board they need. I don't know what the functional differences were between a ST and RT, I would think the end result would be pretty much the same. Or maybe they don't want to bother with an RT because of the Fish and all its clones. I dunno.

Here's some local boys playing with 'reverse camber' and homemade hammocks.

That's almost what I'm talking about but imo they really missed the mark on length. Man I really want to try my Skurfer on powder now!!

[Rob Stevens]

That bindingless video shows why too rockered and too wide is likely not the best idea. With the exception of pearling the nose, they couldn't sink them properly.

The rocker in those boards, like the hammock I rode, seems to want to make the board sit on top of the snow too much for its length (half the board is showing most of the time!), squirming around. The width is also trying to make it sit flat while the rider is trying to edge.

I don't piss on fun and those boys are having fun. The ride just looks squirrelly to me. There are things I do like about their setup. The width in the air is forcing the nose back to the riders front foot, making drops easier and they've got the foot flips down.

So you know, this is not fast, by NoBoard standards. Fast is fast. There is not one speed for one and another for strapless. It's just more catastrophic when you don't get it right and snow conditions are much more important.

On the rocker thing, it seems to me that if your board has to take a rigid shape, like a surfboard, an old laminate snowboard or the wakeskate-type arrangement the PDS guys are riding, you have to build in the rocker or it won't "describe" a turn when you lay it over. A decent use-specific core flex will reverse-camber when you edge it AND it will still make an effort to keep edge contact if you run into hard snow.

As far as "porpoising" your board when you ride, I like it to do this on request. If the profile forces me to the surface (rocker and a really wide nose) I loose ultimate control of my depth in the snowpack. The Winterstick was made in a time when the best riders could barely turn left, let alone right. Depth control? As surfers, they likely knew nothing about it. The ideal, modern shape should default to the surface under normal trim (Nose, but tail, too, just slightly less), but be diveable with the right, subtle hint from the rider. Unless you're a novice and need the float at all costs. Sure... there is a type of insane snowfall accumulation that might leave you wanting a wider profile, but it happens so infrequently, building your all-rounder to work perfecly here would be building a real bear to handle under "normal" 2-foot-o-fresh conditions.

Jack. If you want to have a time, rope-free ride your Skurfer. If you want to have a GOOD time, leave it on the wall as a testament to what was thought of as performance in another day and demo a NoFish. Don't like Burton? Put surf deck on a shorter, freeride board and have at it. If you really like it, go to the site and get a proper pad. The material and knob profile work much better in powder than surf decking.

[tex1230]

I liked the video, because it shows people falling trying something new...

Why would you want or need your feet free to think you are skating

or surfing? I am skating and surfing now on my snowboard and this concept

on groomed would be insane with boards and bodies all over the slopes...

This is the return of the Snurfer circa 2000

I am not saying it would not be fun but is there not enough Surf and Skate

commercialization already...enough cool clothes now?

Sorry but I say no no no no no no no no no no and no

I have no idea what you are saying here...you don't like the noboard idea or you like watching people flail?

[Dr D]

Thanks for the 6am entertainment! Notice how short they made those rockered boards? Granted, they weren't going really fast by binding mounted rider standards, but for noboard it was pretty decent.

Bobdea, that is kinda what I am thinking, that length but a wider tip/tail and rockered.

You would do better with a 168 4807 than with a half gun. similiar tails and midboard feel but the 4807 has way more rocker in the nose and the midsection is stiff enough that it carves well in a pinch.

[bobdea]

You would do better with a 168 4807 than with a half gun. similiar tails and midboard feel but the 4807 has way more rocker in the nose and the midsection is stiff enough that it carves well in a pinch.

yeah, that or a prior pow stick

Gilmour claims the half gun carves up a storm

the pow stick is supposed to as well

do they still make the 4807?

still would bet on a tanker or if you have a size ten or bigger foot tanker wide. I have the 177 and 187 both are good jack of all trades bow rides the 177 rules the trees, the only thing I can imagine that would be better would be a bigger wider taper board like a fish or a khyber. Been on the biggest fish and it's not enough for me but they do work so well in the trees

[Dr D]

I almost picked one up off ebay on the cheap just to try it out. anybody else ride the Rossi halfgun? what about its big brother? I heard that there were quality issues but then they said the same about the 4807's and mine have never given me a problem.

there are no 4807's being made currently although there are a few of the dynastars still out there in old new stock land. the later model osins with the ghost flames and the thicker wood grain striping are great. the earlier ones with the thin woodgrain stripes and no ghost flames had fragile noses.