Ultimate powder board

[bobdea]

I almost picked one up off ebay on the cheap just to try it out. anybody else ride the Rossi halfgun? what about its big brother? I heard that there were quality issues but then they said the same about the 4807's and mine have never given me a problem.

there are no 4807's being made currently although there are a few of the dynastars still out there in old new stock land. the later model osins with the ghost flames and the thicker wood grain striping are great. the earlier ones with the thin woodgrain stripes and no ghost flames had fragile noses.

been on a undertaker, rips pow nice but does not like hardpack. it does however slay crusty pow very well

[utahcarver]

Jon,

Check out this Prior 176 swallow on the groomers. It looks like with the Prior you can get two boards for the price of one!

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Mark

[b0ardski]

Cool footage I Turner Mt.

Where else can you park next to the lift with 20 open spaces???

[refried]

I have a Judge (now called the Half Gun) and it does rip. It's very similar to a 169 3800 in shape and how it rides. I've never had any problems with this board or my 4807. I'd like to replace my 176 Pow Stick this year but don't want to pay retail for it, it was my favorite board a few years ago and I do miss it. I think it wasone of the best all around boards I've had.

Jon, your welcome to try any of my boards let me know and I could drop it off on the way back from Baker.

[dredman]

176 Prior PowStick narrowed down to a 23cm waist. Simply wonderful as seen in video. Powder, packed, or mixed conditions....Fun Fun Fun!

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[John Gilmour]

yeah, that or a prior pow stick

Gilmour claims the half gun carves up a storm

the pow stick is supposed to as well

do they still make the 4807?

still would bet on a tanker or if you have a size ten or bigger foot tanker wide. I have the 177 and 187 both are good jack of all trades bow rides the 177 rules the trees, the only thing I can imagine that would be better would be a bigger wider taper board like a fish or a khyber. Been on the biggest fish and it's not enough for me but they do work so well in the trees

I was the Winterstick rep. I owned a bunch of Round tails and swallow tails. The winterstick round tail was the better board for tight trees and powdery monster sized moguls because the tail pivoted instantly. It was just barely tolerable on hardpack because the nose flared so much. The original Sims Fe series was also a swallow tail- as were so many boards like the burton cruiser (barely) and Flite.

I've ridden them all in powder. Some of the best powder only (from heavy to light powder) were the Sims Fe Pro 160 and 170's (Best had Oak/ash cores...rare). The Winterstick swallowtail with powder skeg was an odd monster. If you ever did sink the nose... there was almost no way to bring it back up- you couldn't easily lean back and pry it up because it had so much surface area it worked like an anchor. If you had lots of pitch or speed then it was fine.

I rode the Dupraz and struggled with it- forced it. I'm sure it would do well in Les Arcs.

I bought the Dynastar- (liked my demo) but gave it away after 3 runs.

IMHO the Rossi Judge 159 is still the best powder all around board. The tail never gets caught- good for tighter trees. It is surprisingly stable.

I do claim it carves up a storm. lol....

Especially when dialed in perfectly with a reasonably strong set of boots (not with overly stiff boots and highbacks which would prevent proper angulation) and bindings to keep the softer flex pattern in line to work as if the board were stiffer. You can make this flex like a pretty decent carving deck.........really.....

It works well in light powder- loose crud, ball bearings, clumpy wet snow, rain, and slush- it even surfs well on water..lol..- I was one of only two snowboarders to make it pond skimming this year.

BUT- the board needs strong rider input... you have to monitor that edge and set up perfectly or it falls apart.

The flex pattern on the judge starts to feel stressed when carving over 25mph. You have to really feel the entire edge and pay attention... but if you do it works beautifully. The flex pattern is too soft for carving fast on chalk without having to really watch it.

I could really improve on the edge hold with some carbon in the right places. As for durability- I'm shocked mine did not explode.. the worst enemy for my board was united airlines baggage handlers.

The fiberglass is a lot better than what I am used to seeing in Rossi product..(surface resin stress cracked the crap out of the tail...but it refused to break or delam. I liked it. I even bought another longer one off of Bola- but I am skeptical about it. Longer is not always better. You can only go as fast as you can maneuver and slow down. Personally I'll take the car with super premium brake upgrade good suspension and tires instead of 20 more horsepower. (Meaning...I might customize my 159 with a carbon butterfly with a drastically new shape). The tail is too soft for serious carving... but if it was stiffer I likely would have snapped it off doing a boot grab high speed carve. Torsionally.. it is way too twisty. But given the materials and restrictions I think Jeremy Jones did a phenomenal job of designing this.... I would not at all be surprised if it is the single board design he is proudest of.

The Winterstick swallowtail was pure misery on hardpack.... a knee destroyer. The severe taper constantly twisted you when carving high on edge on hard pack.

What I liked about the Rossi Judge was the ability to charge on powder- not caring how deep it was so long as you had speed. Speed is the key to those boards.

Powder behaves like a liquid...

waterskiing- water behaves like a liquid.... until your fricking flying... then its like cement.

I figure... I go fast enough to make the powder start behaving heavier anyway. Then you have the best of both worlds- support for your turns at speed and -a nice big pillow if you mess up.

After going back from the Judge to a directional non swallowtail freeride..... I struggled to get through heavy snow- the tail felt like there was a dead 10lb weight on it. Not having the advanced set back of the Judge just made me fight the snow- incinerating my rear leg. I went from a 159 Judge to a Never Summer Premier T5 165 that was wider.... Yet- I felt more float and maneuverability on the Judge..... and I could carve better, go bigger... and tear through trees with more confidence.

To me.... twin tips that aren't being spun constantly are nothing more than fashion statements (don't stray too far from the herd.... of be made fun of... I say "so what" ride the snow ...not popular opinion.) . IMHO most freecarving softboot carvers would rider better on a 159 Rossi Judge semiswallowtail (if they ride angled and have the right sized feet) than on the vast majority of directional freerides.... except maybe for some boardercross models I have not yet ridden... and then......well........... powder...///// well you give that up to the boardercross' decks overly stiff flex.... and then you may as well be on hard boots.

If you want to ride soft boots on North East hard pack only.. a boardercross board is a good choice.

PS. if any one is eyeing that last 2005 demo Rossi Judge at Out of Bounds... Vin Q already has it set aside for me. This year I'm gonna customize one of them... and hopefully have it for people to mess around on whenever they come to Aspen.

________

K ENGINE

[utahcarver]

John G:

Have you ever ridden the Jeremy Jones model from Rossi? My buddy, a former Rossignol employee and devotee swears by the Jones deck for all things soft booting. In previous years, he had me hooked on the Rossignol Levitation which, though it had its limitations, was one of the best production all-mountain boards made several years ago, IMHO. I ran hardboots on my 172 and it excelled in powder and helped me learn how to carve a snowboard on cord.

Your insights into the Judge indicate to me that a modern-day powder rider must have some savvy in how to select his/her weapon of choice. IOW, what I find to work for me on my mountain and conditions may not be the best choice for someone in BC or Vermont. As much as I advocate the Milovich designs, they were made specifically for a small window of opportunity as far as powder surfing is concerned. When Dmitiri tried to 'turn the corner' and make his designs cord-friendly or park-friendly, they simply did not translate for a lot of riders.

So, does the Jeremy Jones Rossi have promise?

Thanks John,

Mark

[Rob Stevens]

I was just up at Mike Wiegele's heli op in Blue River on the weekend, riding some bikes off the swell new EuroCopter.

In the shop we were pitting out of, they had some demo gear for the winter. I held and flexed a Prior Spearhead... That looks like my next powder board. Round tail, big nose, nice taper, but not too silly. Length (175) and weight (pretty light) were all bang on.

For sure, it looks like one that will float like a bastard, but still trim to the surface. It also has a round, shortish (not Fish short, though) tail that a guy could pivot on like crazy, but still be there in a hard surface turn, or not sink too much off a drop.

No pics, but I'm sure they're out there..

[snowboardfast]

Dupraz D1 179 Best board for me so far in powder but is fun for general riding as well. Works best with soft boots. I have spent a lot of days on it in both hard and soft boots and have decided it is best with soft boots. I have tried softer plate binding on it and still like it better with soft boots.I will always own one as I really like it! I am surprised that John G said he struggled with it as I feel it is easy to ride. You must ride it without loading the nose too much as it is designed to be ridden mostly with equal weight on both feet. I ride it with the recommended width marked on the board and my stance is not set back on the tail. I have not ridden it in trees much as I just don't spend much time there. I think this board is a great design and is fun! This will be season 31 this year and I will have fun with this board.

[Dr D]

ooooooooh what a concept seems like it might be a little overkill on the narrow side though.

I'd try it:eplus2:

[Dr D]

if you put some sidecut in it and made a more normal width nose with a narrow tail it would be almost ridable on groom

[Dr D]

?????? I have and I don't

for me the float was what hooked me on snowboarding and took me off of skiis forever. I skiid from age four to sixteen and haven't been back since.

I like the concept though it just needs to be wider. I would say on the order of 10 inches or so at the nose and maybe four at the tail ridden like a skwal would be interesting. I think you could add enough sidecut to make it rideable to the pow. rather than extending the sidecut out to a wider nose, I wonder what would happen if you pie sliced your sidecut radii instead of aligning them on the parrallel.

[Dr D]

you would probably enjoy riding a surfrodz with soft boots. very similiar concept.

[Jon Dahl]

I held and flexed a Prior Spearhead... That looks like my next powder board. Round tail, big nose, nice taper, but not too silly.

Yes, my concept board would be shaped similar to the spearhead. I'm thinkin' if you rockered it some more than it is, you could do with a little less length. Perhaps only rocker the tip/tail, and have some camber between the feet. I still need to talk with someone who has worked with rockered shapes before finalizing it. The creative juices are flowing!

Refried, I may want to borrow that Judge this winter, kind of a test pilot mission...

[utahcarver]

I was in Salty Peaks (in Salt Lake City, Utah) today and asked to see their swallowtail section. Plenty of swallowtails to choose from, Winterstick, Voile, Nitro, O-Sin 4807, Prior. I was having nervous twitches in my knees and feet seeing all that happiness.

Anyway, the Prior swallowtail and the Spearhead really caught my attention. I'd sure like to have a board that could do double duty: deep soft days followed by several days of packed powder groomers and soft conditions in the trees. I think the Spearhead would be that board but, being a swallowtail adherent I'd like to have the Prior swallowtail (181), too. Oh, and the prices were $600 US and above for any board I saw. As much as I'd like to add another Winterstick swallow to my quiver, I've now been tempted to get a board that I could put more days on.

So, bottom-line, I was very impressed with the Spearhead 178cm and I think I could really enjoy this board.

Mark

[Skully]

I was in Salty Peaks (in Salt Lake City, Utah) today (Lots more words), Prior.

Anyway, the Prior swallowtail and the Spearhead really caught my attention.

Mark

Wow, the Salty Geeks actually have some Priors in stock?

So how many WCR Metals did they have? (NOT)

[utahcarver]

Curt,

Yep, that's funny about Priors in SaltyPeeks. I didn't ask to see the super-secret stash of alpine boards. I'm sure I would have been asked for a sign or token, or a secret handshake. :D

You can't let that stuff sit out on the sales floor and have riders think you aren't core. Any semblance of a skiing influence might be seen as a 'selling out' to big corporate interests. Which makes me think of what I said to the kid in SP. I told him that the parent company of O-Sin was Dynastar. He seemed puzzled as to why a ski manufacturer would make snowboards. Silly wabbit.

But, really, the Prior Spearhead looked promising and I loved the Prior swallowtail. Hardbooter got any demos of both? Did Dave ever find the D1? I'll look in my garage again and see if it is there.

Mark

[Skully]

But, really, the Prior Spearhead looked promising and I loved the Prior swallowtail. Hardbooter got any demos of both? Did Dave ever find the D1? I'll look in my garage again and see if it is there.

Mark

I don't think that hardbooter currently have a demo Spearhead or Swallowtail. They do have Khyber though.

I don' think the D1 has shown up yet. It would be nice if it were in your garage, they might get a chance to see it again if you had it...;)

[felix]

I rode a lotta powder boards last season, from Dupraz D1+, Apo, Never Summer Summit, various longboards (for me a longboard is rather a universal but a powder specific board) from LTB and Tanker, some STs, Jester Element, Rossi Undertaker 185, Pogo Swallows,.......

The board that stands out for me is the Powderequipment Type B in 190cm.

I wrote a resume off some of the boards in this thread here: http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4013&highlight=powderequipment

After testing several other freeride boards during that season , i rode the Type B again at the Longboard Classics and again it exelled against everything. It's not the best board on hard slopes (2.8kg if you opt for the clear topsheet in 190cm just means being way lighter than any other board in this length) but once you get it on the slightest bit of powder it just excells. Due to the shape it rides open bowls just like a Swallow, however in forest due to the low weight it turns with only a bit more power than a true pintail like Never Summer Summit or LTB Ultratapers.

Once my 2m 2003 tanker breaks down (I hope it holds up for one more season, just installed 8 extra t-nut inserts for real powder days to have either 12cm or 16cm of setback because it doesn't float enough...) I'll go for the "Type B".

[philw]

I wrote a resume off some of the boards in this thread here: http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4013&highlight=powderequipment

Useful; it's better when people provide some data rather than just stating stuff. Those conditions sound fairly radically different from the sort of powder I ride, which is probably why you're using radically different gear etc.

[felix]

Nah off course I love riding real powder and not just the odd 15cm from last night, but mostly conditions aren't perfect (I get maybe 5-10 perfect powder days with 60cm+ fresh per season - and that's with travelling to the places where the fluff arrives). And by riding long long boards that float well as well as going fast I can stay on top of those 15cm barely touching the hard old snow underneath - while other people just moan about bad conditions and call them unrideable. Those conditions weren't changeable, so I had to adapt. If its perfect conditions most powder specific boards excell, some like Swallowtails even the better.

I like to load the front foot on turn initiation, be it on the slope or off-piste. To do that I need flooooaaat. If you're riding like 95% offpiste on your back-foot - well than you better check out some boards that offer real pleasure off-piste. I don't think there many people who put extra inserts into their tanker to provide more float - but I don't wanna adapt my technique but take the board that suits my technique.

I rode the Powderequipment Type B later that year after about a 1m dump (during the Longboard Classics at Stuben this year) and it was even better. Tried a Dupraz afterwards and just didn't understand how it came that a board I usually like doesn't perform at all like the board before.

I often freeride corn snow, and for that the longer the more secure. I rarely use hardboots for freeriding anymore. With hardboots I'ld rather use Swallowtails all the time, or at least very long and rather narrow freeridesticks.

My favourite afternoon and bad weather tool is however more and more my custom Raxski (cut out of a snowboard). The first batch of Raxskis is just being produced. There's not much resemblance anymore with the early Raxski prototypes. I will setup some fat Raxskis with softboot binders for this season wile others I use with my snowboard hardboots. Riding forest no other snowsporttool is as quick and turny like Raxskis. We might setup a model with dynafits if the sales go well.

[b0ardski]

I've been hoping to see snowboard compatable Dynafit bindings. It's the next step towards a universal interface system.

I will be buying scarpa tx boots this season, and will try to modify/cut in snowboard stepin heels. A Dynafit type toe combined with a stepin heel is the future of snow sport boot/binding systems.

The boot can be powder soft to race stiff with variable flexes inbetween, and use an interface that works with all types of glisse equipment, skis/snowboards/teles/skwals/alpine touring/splitboards/crampons/snowshoes

even lunchtrays & shovels:eek:

Felix, tell us more about the Raxskis???

sorry for the threadjack

[felix]

you can google about it, homepage hasn't been updated for a long time - however most information on the net isn't that up to date. that's how for example how my cutted through snowboard Raxski looks like. It's held in the air by Tom, the inventor.

[philw]

Front foot: Interesting. I ride what I think is balanced front-back, and I don't think there's any significant fore-aft weight shift for me in powder at turn initiation. I'd like to see how that works - got any video? The only weight shift I can really think of doing is stalling the tail to slow down, but that's a different deal and really only a tree move. Some novices sometimes load their rear leg to get a sort of "weather vane" effect in deep snow, but I don't think anyone could keep that up for more than a couple of turns.

Perfect Powder: Indeed. Where I live, some people describe the zamboni shavings on the indoor slopes as "powder", and I've even seen people trying to ride Fish on it! Obviously riding a little fresh on a skier-pisted-base is good but different from riding fresh on untracked, irrespective of depth.

Corn Snow: It's been a few years since I did a corn-snow heli week; I just like that stuff less than white-smoke powder even when you hit it precisely right. Of course you tend to be riding the open slopes at that time of year, so big boards would likely work well.

Riding forest no other snowsporttool is as quick and turny like Raxskis. We might setup a model with dynafits if the sales go well.

I'd like to see some of those ridden well. My guess would be that a well ridden Fish would blow away anything ski-oriented in deep powder set in reasonably steep trees, but I don't know of course. My rationale: (a) boards are faster than skis in powder; (b) you can't get the slalom-ski independent-leg-action advantage when riding deep powder; © the fore-back breaking action (see above) is hard to do if your feet are both in the same plane.

What's the design philosophy of these?

[felix]

O.T.

a) WRONG: Skis in general if long and wide enough are quicker than any snowboard, just look at races where both skiers and boarders participate. Once going above 100km/h two independant sticks just allow to eat up more shocks than one stick, look at the speed of professional Big Mountain skiers, it's way above that from snowboarders. At la Grave at the derby de la Meije even Monoskiers are quicker than boarders year after year - however I would say that this is due to the very best monoskiers (like Xavier Duret - known for Duret Monoskis) participating while no really quick boarders like Castelberg or others participate.

As long as its steep enough and tight in trees I'm much quicker on Raxskis compared to riding a Pintail snowboard shape, not depending on snow conditions - and that's with a fraction of experience on Raxskis compared to snowboards.

For Raxskis the speed limit is different. I'ld say above 90km/h the principle doesn't work anymore. However on moguls, beat up powder, or tight runs due to the manouverability (we timed that it's possible to change direction about 3 times per second) its much quicker than any other snowsport tool - because of stability. You can straightline nearly everything (seen many people speculating how it's possible that on spring snow there is a long straightline down a 60° field, debating what tool was used to walk up straight there - noone even thinking that this was possible on downhill), as by moving the weight backwards you directly brake. This principle has been used for very early snowboards too, and off course for the predecessor of Raxskis the Figln too. The main difference is that the fins are used for turning too. Raxskis are fun and easy to use in powder, but off course slower (the pictured ones would run about same speed as a slalom ski in powder when pointing straight). They really shine whenever conditions get bad or you're going down somewhere too tight to turn. Hucking cliffs also doesn't work too well on raxskis. I jumped down a 4-5m high windlip 10-15m far, but that was about the maximum I still felt in controll, much easier on skis or snowboards.

b) on Raxkis you have really independant leg action, one skis is basically enough, as it uses much less power than skis or snowboards I have done quite long descents on one Raxski only getting down 300-400m vert without stopping or arriving tired. Good video material will follow up later this year. Old handycam style videos simply don't cut it.

c) On Raxskis you have to skis, just like on skis. Otherwise we would have called it Raxboards..... The principle relies nearly only on fore-aft movement and weightshift from on leg to the other. To turn you just load the weight onto the foot in the direction you want to go. Learning to Raxski takes about 10-30 minutes for a snowboarder (meaning after 30min every snowboarder who tried it got down any descent upto 40° steep, onpiste or offpiste). Even people who have never skied or snowboarded before learn it in two to three hours.

You can find some more pictures here: http://picasaweb.google.com/FelHartmann/SkitripDachsteinUndHintertuxImMai#

Here you have a one-footed video: http://picasaweb.google.com/FelHartmann/SkitripDachsteinUndHintertuxImMai#5210018938338261618

(the snow was really heavy, due to 1m of fresh snow 2 days before and then being the first day with above 0° C. temperatures (actually 20° at 2700m on Dachstein Glacier). This was end of May.

On this shot you see the difference from an average snowboard track (Tanker 200) to a straightline Raxski track, about 35-40° steep: http://picasaweb.google.com/FelHartmann/SkitripDachsteinUndHintertuxImMai#5210021162352081138

This is a rather old video, with old-type Raxskis which required much power (because you had to lean back/toiletseat) and weren't nearly as efficient as the newer prototypes:

If you want to know more about Raxskis I'ld ask you to open up a new topic by pasting in the old inforation however, this is becoming way off topic.