Getting down and riding the pencil line turn to turn?

[1xsculler]

My nemisis. I always seem to pick up too much speed and have to slarve it off. On a gentler slope where speed is not an issue I can carve and connect pencil lines all day long…well almost!!!

This sport is so darn terrain and grooming dependent, i.e. increase the slope by a couple of degrees or encounter some bumps and my run goes to slarving hell!

[RRrider]

I relate to this statement.  

I’m struggling to find your question?

If it is, are you experiencing the same:  yes.

if it is how are you approaching this challenge:  I’m working on trying to put more input into the board as i carve, by bending my knees more and getting down lower in the middle part of the carve, while angulating the board up and trying to keep my shoulders parallel to slope, to give the edge a more solid hold on the snow. My hope is this causes the board to engage more, bend more, shorten the radius of the carve, and thereby slow me down, allowing me to control my speed without slarving (which is what i do when speed exceeds my comfort level).

i would like to use effective radius of the carve to control my speed.  But i believe i don’t engage the board enough so im more of a passenger in the carve, and can only do it on certain terrains where i feel comfortable with the speed given to me.  Then i slarve.  I believe i should be able to adjust to a wider range of terrains with a pencil line carve by adjusting the energy level i put into the board.

i am also playing with binding & boot set up plus different boards to see if any of these variables makes it easier for me to do this (and they do…but technique is king…good guys can carve on anything…less good guys need more ideal circumstances…that’s me).

i welcome any feedback on this belief of mine / coaching on how to think about this & improve, as there are some really skilled folks in this forum!

[pow4ever]

that's the fun part.
There is a tech article on this topic exactly.  we get the concept but actual execution is not easy to master.

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Carving-the-Steeps.pdf
 
similar to life when we play on easy mode - most do well with some practice
when we got thrown a few curve balls - we need to be quick to adapt/flexible and face the challenges head on.  

stumble but never fall (too hard) - carve on friend

i think it as energy management

shallower slope - less energy to managed. technique is less important 
steep slope - much more potential -> kinetic (esp for us clydesdale class)
margin for error is tiny.
angulation, rotation, dragging body part, make the board turn are method to dissipate build up speed/energy.

when i start out i purpose to not wax board and unzip jacket as method to slow down lol...

Once we get better - it's easy to stall out because we carve away too much energy.  finding the balance and enjoy

[1xsculler]

All of that is me!

In my dreams I carve with the best of them and then I wake up and fight the slarve with all my might or just stop altogether and start out again on the never ending struggle. 

[RRrider]

Thanks for the article @pow4ever!   it's a nice summary of the key factors.

I also like the concept of energy mgmt.  Technique puts the forces where they should be (namely over the inside edge at the right time) and muscles allow for controlling and managing the kinetic <-> potential energy transfer.

Balls required to keep committed when that board's acceleration surges on a steep firm slope!

I need to work on all three (technique, muscles, balls!).

Edited March 5 by RRrider

[skhil]

While I won't deny the things mentioned in this article are important it somehow neglects the problem stated in the topic. At some point speed control becomes necessary to carve.

There are two ways allowing you to reduce your speed while carving.

The first one is obvious: make sharper turns with the part along the fall line as short as possible. I'm pretty sure everybody does that without even thinking.

The second one is to finish every turn with a little uphill climb. It's not hard to do if the slope is wide enough. Although it's not as intuitive as the first one but it's a really effective way to shave off the speed.

Edited March 5 by skhil

[philw]

Well, I think it's a perspective problem.

I'll ride railed pencil-thin carves with zero-length transitions when the conditions are good for that, but I'll switch to any of a range of turn styles for other conditions.

I do not try to make the mountain conform to a single tool in my toolbox; I just use the right tool for the conditions, varying what I do continually. 

By analogy think of the guys who want to drag their armpits on novice runs. It would be a mistake for them to try to do that on a mogul field, or in deep snow.
 

If your goal is to use one single tool [turn] for all purposes... I think you'll fail. Relax, learn to vary your turns as needed, don't fight the mountain, work with it.

[RRrider]

100% agree @philw.  Clearly in powder, in tight trees, moguls etc, I'm using other tools and techniques.  I approached this thread assuming I had already made the decision that carving was the tool I wanted to use, and how to improve my execution of this decision.

Edited March 5 by RRrider

[Frenchy_in_SD]

11 hours ago, pow4ever said:

 

when i start out i purpose to not wax board and unzip jacket as method to slow down lol...
 

I got a parachute to sell you !!!

That will slow you down enough, I think.

or you may lift up and let you fly above the straight liners trying to slam into you. 

[st_lupo]

Some observation from my pov:

A lot of people over-drive the "balls" you need to attack the steeps (because they try it too soon?) and it builds an unnecessarily big mental hurdle in everybody else.  Practice the basics on terrain that you can master and graduate to steeper when you are ready.

Mastery over speed control is alpha and omega in freeing yourself from the tyranny of the mountain and the snow conditions.  The degree that you can ride within your acceptable level of risk is completely dependent on how well you can manage speed.  A big part of this (for me) was realizing that I was consistently letting too much speed build up even before the first turn.  You very likely accelerate through the apex of the first turn, so you need to learn how to keep your pre-turn speed low enough so that the exit speed is acceptable and controllable.  Given you have a good entry speed, it's only edge pressure and completing those turns that are going to keep the speed in check unless you want to start skidding >yuck<.

This leads to... the realization that steepness is your throttle.  If you can ride your favorite trail with your hardest repeatable pencil carves and decelerate, then your are ready to move up to something steeper, not before. 

Assuming that you've browsed the tech articles and know what you should be practicing, do it.  Try to make virtually every turn of every run valuable.  Maximize edge pressure on every single turn.  Analyze what works and what doesn't.

Groomers are like refined sugar, but crap conditions builds character.  Stay out when the trails are rutted up and teach those legs to ride hard but lite.  It's kind of an oxymoron, but you want to be able to set an edge with maximum pressure and at the same time you need to conform to the contours of the terrain.

Age is a factor.  Don't mean to sound ageist but the general HB carving population is probably getting older and we either survive long enough to see a decrease in our abilities until we throw in the towel, or we get seriously injured.  I'm getting into an age where I have to start thinking about that more and more and I'm not happy about it.

The only person you should measure yourself against is you.  Are you having fun?  Are you getting better?  If no or no:  take a deep breath, slow down and try to break the problem into smaller bite-sized problems.  Prioritize them and attack them.  What gives you the worst problems?  Steepness, ground clutter, ice, being able to carve repeatably,...  Then pick _one_ item and focus on that until you solve it.  There is no magic or talent required here.  Repetitive hard-work and reflection should get you on the path to improvement.

[pmorita]

One swing thought that helps me when I start loosing it.  Let the board pass under you for a bit longer before you are into your next turn.  It lets me be leaned over and on the downhill edge sooner so I get a tighter turn and dump more speed.  Turning uphill also helps plenty.  

Then I can focus on those straight lining private school racer kids.

[1xsculler]

3 hours ago, st_lupo said:

Some observation from my pov:

A lot of people over-drive the "balls" you need to attack the steeps (because they try it too soon?) and it builds an unnecessarily big mental hurdle in everybody else.  Practice the basics on terrain that you can master and graduate to steeper when you are ready.

Mastery over speed control is alpha and omega in freeing yourself from the tyranny of the mountain and the snow conditions.  The degree that you can ride within your acceptable level of risk is completely dependent on how well you can manage speed.  A big part of this (for me) was realizing that I was consistently letting too much speed build up even before the first turn.  You very likely accelerate through the apex of the first turn, so you need to learn how to keep your pre-turn speed low enough so that the exit speed is acceptable and controllable.  Given you have a good entry speed, it's only edge pressure and completing those turns that are going to keep the speed in check unless you want to start skidding >yuck<.

This leads to... the realization that steepness is your throttle.  If you can ride your favorite trail with your hardest repeatable pencil carves and decelerate, then your are ready to move up to something steeper, not before. 

Assuming that you've browsed the tech articles and know what you should be practicing, do it.  Try to make virtually every turn of every run valuable.  Maximize edge pressure on every single turn.  Analyze what works and what doesn't.

Groomers are like refined sugar, but crap conditions builds character.  Stay out when the trails are rutted up and teach those legs to ride hard but lite.  It's kind of an oxymoron, but you want to be able to set an edge with maximum pressure and at the same time you need to conform to the contours of the terrain.

Age is a factor.  Don't mean to sound ageist but the general HB carving population is probably getting older and we either survive long enough to see a decrease in our abilities until we throw in the towel, or we get seriously injured.  I'm getting into an age where I have to start thinking about that more and more and I'm not happy about it.

The only person you should measure yourself against is you.  Are you having fun?  Are you getting better?  If no or no:  take a deep breath, slow down and try to break the problem into smaller bite-sized problems.  Prioritize them and attack them.  What gives you the worst problems?  Steepness, ground clutter, ice, being able to carve repeatably,...  Then pick _one_ item and focus on that until you solve it.  There is no magic or talent required here.  Repetitive hard-work and reflection should get you on the path to improvement.

Maybe practice Norms a little each day rather than make slarves my norm!

 I’m only 80 years young and my ten year plan is to win the Head of the Charles rowing regatta again at 85 and 90…LOL! One can dream!

[timbox18]

Not sure if this will be of any use to any of you, but please check out this video of short turns:

Maybe 2 weeks ago, I was doing laps on a green runs at Gore Mountain, and decided to do a bunch of really short turns to get myself to bend my knees more, and use my shins turn...

It was really helpful to be able to shift my weight from side to side quickly so I do not hold a turn for too long, and it got me to more actively ride my board, instead of it riding me...

This also seems to help me when riding crap chunky snow...

And another rambling thought is that when I look further ahead and plan my next few turns, I ride better than if I am looking too closely at the nose of my board...

[Rob Stevens]

4 hours ago, st_lupo said:

Some observation from my pov:

A lot of people over-drive the "balls" you need to attack the steeps (because they try it too soon?) and it builds an unnecessarily big mental hurdle in everybody else.  Practice the basics on terrain that you can master and graduate to steeper when you are ready.

Mastery over speed control is alpha and omega in freeing yourself from the tyranny of the mountain and the snow conditions.  The degree that you can ride within your acceptable level of risk is completely dependent on how well you can manage speed.  A big part of this (for me) was realizing that I was consistently letting too much speed build up even before the first turn.  You very likely accelerate through the apex of the first turn, so you need to learn how to keep your pre-turn speed low enough so that the exit speed is acceptable and controllable.  Given you have a good entry speed, it's only edge pressure and completing those turns that are going to keep the speed in check unless you want to start skidding >yuck<.

This leads to... the realization that steepness is your throttle.  If you can ride your favorite trail with your hardest repeatable pencil carves and decelerate, then your are ready to move up to something steeper, not before. 

Assuming that you've browsed the tech articles and know what you should be practicing, do it.  Try to make virtually every turn of every run valuable.  Maximize edge pressure on every single turn.  Analyze what works and what doesn't.

Groomers are like refined sugar, but crap conditions builds character.  Stay out when the trails are rutted up and teach those legs to ride hard but lite.  It's kind of an oxymoron, but you want to be able to set an edge with maximum pressure and at the same time you need to conform to the contours of the terrain.

Age is a factor.  Don't mean to sound ageist but the general HB carving population is probably getting older and we either survive long enough to see a decrease in our abilities until we throw in the towel, or we get seriously injured.  I'm getting into an age where I have to start thinking about that more and more and I'm not happy about it.

The only person you should measure yourself against is you.  Are you having fun?  Are you getting better?  If no or no:  take a deep breath, slow down and try to break the problem into smaller bite-sized problems.  Prioritize them and attack them.  What gives you the worst problems?  Steepness, ground clutter, ice, being able to carve repeatably,...  Then pick _one_ item and focus on that until you solve it.  There is no magic or talent required here.  Repetitive hard-work and reflection should get you on the path to improvement.

This is a great take. 

I’ll focus on a couple of things that would be extensions of the above…

The first is that carving is not that technically hard to understand and that all the information is out there and has been for decades. In that way, you’re doing what needs to be done, Skuller. The issue then becomes your ability to do “more” of what you already do. Speed, vertical and lateral movements all need to accelerate, or have a “wider” operational range. 

I don’t mind sounding ageist or build-ist, so I will. As a long time instructor type I don’t beat around the bush too much. Anyone with me in that environment payed to be there, so I should do them the courtesy of giving them direct feedback. If you can’t make the movements that allow steep terrain carving, then you’ll have to be happy with the pursuit, not absolute accomplishment. Your build is also very important. Most of the great softboot carvers I know are shorter, lighter, flexible and very fit. Stranda Lars is an excellent carver. He can also go from the seated position into a handstand and back in two movements. James is a rock climber. If they don’t wreck themselves, they may be able to keep carving very well into later life. 
If I knew your physical stats, I could tell you almost immediately what your chances are of improving in the way you want to. The one stat I do know that you’ve mentioned is objectively enough to say be happy with what you’re doing, learn to “centre pivot” and play the long game. 
 

 

[pow4ever]

i over use "like" but what st_lupo and Rob articulate much better than i ever could.
you get a heart; you get a heart; everyone get a heart!
so much wisdom here.

Balance - speaking from someone who is self proclaim King of the Green
Practice is good but if we always ride green/blue - you are going to have hard time riding steeper stuff - gotta be ok at being "suck" at it because it's something new.

ride early groom, black - maximize our chance to practice on optimal condition that's just beyond our comfort zone. 

ride sub-optimal condition to make us more versatile carver.

it's been a long time but i finally start to understand how to setup properly for me - style, bio mechanic, fitness level and etc.  (still not dialed in) but getting closer.

i am at the age when physical conditioning is starting to decline so i had to pivot/evolve.  it's as much physical as mental.  gotta be ok with not able to perform at the same level as few years ago.  aka "older i get greater i was".

those were the day where ppl just flabbergast point at me "you! you! you are amazing" now ppl barely turn their head on the chair lol.  realized/accept i am doing this for me because it's fun and i enjoy the hunt/pursuit.  if i can carve effortlessly like other here i might have quit a long time ago.

the flow state require us to push just beyond/near our limitation and consequence matter.

[Corey]

6 hours ago, st_lupo said:

The degree that you can ride within your acceptable level of risk is completely dependent on how well you can manage speed.  A big part of this (for me) was realizing that I was consistently letting too much speed build up even before the first turn.  You very likely accelerate through the apex of the first turn, so you need to learn how to keep your pre-turn speed low enough so that the exit speed is acceptable and controllable.  Given you have a good entry speed, it's only edge pressure and completing those turns that are going to keep the speed in check unless you want to start skidding >yuck<.

This is absolute gold. Very well said and a great simplification of a series of dynamic events.

Said another way: It's not the current turn/edge angle/whatever that's the problem, it's how fast you were going at the end of the previous turn. 

[pow4ever]

some of my down hill mountain bike friends have no sense of self-preservation.
same with the down hill skater.  guess we are just wire differently.

i am the so call pansy(when it comes to breaking bone, bodily harm ) and i am ok with that label.

[1xsculler]

I found a hill that turned out to be very conducive to my carving ability, i.e. the Holiday Lift at Snoqualmie Central. It was perfectly groomed and just the right slope so I could connect pencil lines and even turn back up the hill a little when needed to slow down. It bored me and it would be a hill few of you would even consider (their bunny run) BUT I loved being able to connect pencil lines!

[pow4ever]

23 minutes ago, 1xsculler said:

I found a hill that turned out to be very conducive to my carving ability, i.e. the Holiday Lift at Snoqualmie Central. It was perfectly groomed and just the right slope so I could connect pencil lines and even turn back up the hill a little when needed to slow down. It bored me and it would be a hill few of you would even consider (their bunny run) BUT I loved being able to connect pencil lines!

right but if we want to ride steep with comfort.
we gotta be comfortable with the uncomfortable.  One have to get outside of the comfort zone.
or be comfortable/content with just ridding stuff that's fun for you.

Lots of ppl tell me that want to do 'x" but their action doesn't match their intention.
Which is ok... we all need a bit of mental gymnastic to get through the day. 

Maybe i will see you at Head of the Charles! Harvard?  i is a simple college drop out but guilty by association.
 

[Gossamer]

There is no shame in "Slarving" it is better than "death by tree", never let pride cripple you. 

[1xsculler]

This carving thing remind me of a beginning snowboarder, i.e. your first learn to go from toeside to heel side on a very gentle slope and you feel pretty good…that is until you try to do it on an intermediate slope and then you feel like you’re starting over!

[st_lupo]

9 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

I found a hill that turned out to be very conducive to my carving ability, i.e. the Holiday Lift at Snoqualmie Central. It was perfectly groomed and just the right slope so I could connect pencil lines and even turn back up the hill a little when needed to slow down. It bored me and it would be a hill few of you would even consider (their bunny run) BUT I loved being able to connect pencil lines!

That's awesome, but don't let it bore you!  It sounds like you've got a great baseline to refer to now, and I'll bet that if you keep working at it on that same slope you will improve your technique even more.  If your tracks are deep enough to survive from run to run, use them as a guide.  Repeat the same run and keep your turns and transitions in the same general areas.  Focus on tightening your turns each run by pushing your ability to angulate the board.  Reaching/touching your front boot-cuff with your outside hand is a really good mnemonic for this.  By using your previous tracks as a guide you will get clear and immediate feedback on how your progression is going.  Keep trying to turn inside your previous tracks.  Repeating this will develop your balance and board feel.  Eventually you will probably notice that you are going slower and trenching deeper, you might even notice that you start ending the run with a dusting of snow on your knees...  Now try something steeper!

Focus on that mnemonic (I don't think you can over exaggerate that movement)  and it will get you pretty far (it tends to stack your body correctly rotationally and it forces your board to angulate steeper).  Other problems will eventually arise (backward weight shift on aggressive turns, etc), but don't worry about those until they show up. 

 

[1xsculler]

I really appreciate your reply, especially the reminder about using that mnemonic which I think will help me to move forward in my carving IF I don’t run out of birthdays first!

I can’t tell you how much better I feel about my carving after yesterday on an easy run and this  reply with your advice. 

[big mario]

Keep drilling on that easy pitch to build and reinforce your neural pathways and muscle memory. Rinse and repeat on gradually steeper pitches until it becomes rote and boring, then hit that pitch and see how you do

mario 

[barryj]

On 3/5/2024 at 7:32 AM, 1xsculler said:

My nemisis.

Hey Scully,

I know your pain brother.......   but at this point and time I'm just ever so happy to be out on the Hill and if I get a good turn or two I rejoice in that!  Always working for more/better turns but two surgeries  and being on the AIL sidelines (seemingly forever) has shown me I'm mortal and appreciate the struggles and accomplishments life or the hill  throws my way.

Carpe Diem ........and don't forget to enjoy the day!