Aspen grooming is dangerous.

[John Gilmour]

Today the uneven grooming on Ruthie’s almost cost me a blown knee and dislocated shoulder - I backed off just in Time the first run was ok  the second - awful. Too many hidden land mines of soft pockets and launching hard groom overlap edges. It f’ing launched me multiple times in the same turn.  A hard boot board might have snapped. 

I can’t imagine they wouldn’t fix this tonight , it was very deceiving because it “looked good. And  seemed groomed nicely ….”  But it wasn’t .

 

Sigh after three days if good carving - they messed it up again. .

Doug was one of the groomers let go - the New CEO better rehire this guy. 
 

Aspen firing its  best groomers with decades of experience  which can’t be replaced easily , the reliable snow is the big draw for Aspen - it isn’t the over priced restaurants with changing chefs and ever shrinking portion sizes, lack of parking, exorbitant hotel rates, and now pilots the can’t seem to land the planes reliably as they divert to grand junction or just cancel flights that  would have landed in the past. The snow quality was the draw. 
 

Look at pics of SES 2006 to see how amazing the snow used to be.

Thanks for those tiehack shots - that’s what I’m talking about  . I wish I had video of the Snowmass ice .

Slopestar is coming up to ride and I’ll bet the groomed conditions down valley at Ski Sunlight will be superior to Aspens . He’s going to do a day there and the  Buttermilk. We will see what he says … hard to imagine Tiny Buttermilk with so little acreage, to groom to be beaten by a local ski resort with very limited resources.

You may as well fire Michelangelo while  he’s1/4 way through with the Sistine chapel ceiling .  He’s probably easier to replace than the best groomers at Aspen. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by John Gilmour

[John Gilmour]

8 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Well, come on over, this would be your Favorite I guess, the grooming on Racers Edge on Tiehack today

Nicely done . At least you can see that’s dangerous!

[Odd Job]

Are you telling me Aspen can't attract/retain/train snow grooming talent and the lower class brobrah resorts like Loveland can??? (that grooming looks worse than Loveland's).

I did see the Director of HR salary range for Aspen Ski Co and I thought it was low for Denver; definitely way too low for Aspen. Maybe it's the same for the groomer ops jobs??? Just guessing.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Odd Job

[st_lupo]

12 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Well, come on over, this would be your Favorite I guess, the grooming on Racers Edge on Tiehack today

WTF!?  How do you ass up grooming that bad unless you are trying to f- it up?  I can't imagine that the ungroomed slope was worse than this?  How are you supposed to drag your hand on the ground without breaking a wrist?  And a hip, and a rib, and a collar bone, and your neck?

This horror story, pics of the Vail lift lines, and friends telling me about traffic from Golden to Summit County in the winter really take the edge off of not living in CO anymore.

[Ladia]

Well $10 beer and $35 parking doesn’t do it, so they need to make money somehow, let’s cut some money on grooming. But compare to pictures above Kirkwood is great.

[fluxgame]

I'm getting ready to plunk down for next season's Ikon pass and was going to go for the Base Plus Pass so I could visit Aspen, but this thread has me questioning. Are things that bad Aspen isn't even worth the visit?

[John Gilmour]

10 hours ago, fluxgame said:

I'm getting ready to plunk down for next season's Ikon pass and was going to go for the Base Plus Pass so I could visit Aspen, but this thread has me questioning. Are things that bad Aspen isn't even worth the visit?

I would not bother with Aspen until it gets its act together IF the main reason you are coming here is for its legendary  perfect corduroy.  Certainly food wise it has plummeted in quality and soared in price while portions are insultingly small.  Sure the lamb chops at Cache cache are phenomenal (like insanely good)  those are $90 and actually compared to what else you can buy worth it. But the rest , so Much has become absurd. I have been taken to Catch Steak 3 times and everytime it’s been mediocre - though you could easily run up a $1000 bill For 4 not including drinks or desert.

the happy hour at Clarke’s is just about the only truly good food for reasonable prices left in town , and I’m not going to consider Zane’s chicken wings great food …. Filling but nothing you could eat all the time.

I think Loveland groom is superior , so is Copper , Vail , Beaver Creek just blows Aspen out of the water . 
 

But don’t write off Aspen for good, there’s a chance the grooming could improve , but frankly the level of skier here now is not the best or as discerning … many of our better skiers are aging out. So it’s not the town that was so proud of snow quality like it once was. The best skiers can not afford it as easily. It’s the finance visitors who can, and they can’t turn well enough to tell the difference in groom

However weekdays when there I are fewer “ikon weekends’ people here … Ajax has almost non existent lift lines .  The lunch vibe IMHO is one of the better ones .  And it’s awesome having the silver queen less than 5 blocks from everything. Practically everyone gets on the hill. 
 

Today I got a later start . Thought I would take the shadow mountain  lift to cut over to Ruthie’s which turns out was a complete mess when it should have been beyond perfect today . It could have been amazing with a minimal of grooming effort, but it was neglected. No one was going over 15mph on it.  Most  under 8-10 mph. 
 

I could see most of the hill -  and it was as pretty uneven . I took Spar gulch down which was only 2/3 wide because they didn’t bother to groom it all.

The Lon lift lines at Beaver Creek are starting to seem tolerable because at least the snow is good , and I bet Centennial this year has been beyond “EPIC”.

Edited March 25, 2023 by John Gilmour

[kitejumping]

41 minutes ago, John Gilmour said:

I would not bother with Aspen until it gets its act together IF the main reason you are coming here is for its legendary  perfect corduroy.  Certainly food wise it has plummet in quality and soared in price while portions are insultingly small.  Sure the lamb chops at Cache cache are phenomenal (like insanely good)  those are $90 and actually compared to what else you can buy worth it. But the rest , so Much has become absurd. I have been taken to Catch Steak 3 times and everytime it’s been mediocre - though you could easily run up a $1000 bill For 4 not including drinks or desert.

the happy hour at Clarke’s is just about the only truly good food for reasonable prices left in town , and I’m not going to consider Zane’s chicken wings great food …. Filling but nothing you could eat all the time.

I think Loveland groom is superior , so is Copper , Vail , Beaver Creek just blows Aspen out of the water . 
 

But don’t write off Aspen for good, there’s a chance the grooming could improve , but frankly the level of skier here now is t the best … many of our better skiers are aging out. So it’s not the town that was so proud of snow quality like it once was.

However weekdays when there is little ikon weekends people here … Ajax has almost non existent lift lines .  The lunch vibe IMHO is one of the better ones .  And it’s awesome having the silver queen less than 5 blocks from everything. Practically everyone gets on the hill. 
 

Today I got a meter start . Thought I would take the shadow my lift to cut over to Ruthie’s which turns out was a complete mess when it should have been beyond perfect today . 
 

I could see most of the hill -  and it was as pretty uneven . I took soar down which was only 2/3 wide because they didn’t bother to groom it all.

The lines at Beaver Creek are starting to seem tolerable , and I bet Centennial this year has been beyond “EPIC”.

Centennial has been good, but upper centennial they groom maybe once or twice a week, and not the full width of it, middle centennial is great, lower centennial or 1876, same issue, it's great when it's groomed, but it hasn't consistently been groomed the full width, and they don't always groom it every night.  Usually it has mogul fields along the sides of it, and it's not that wide to begin with (at least for a 20m radius board to close turns).   Same with golden bear at arrowhead (one of my favorite groomers for carving), it's usually only 1/3 width groomed with moguls on the sides this year. I think covid remote workers moving to mountain towns + airbnb driving up rent costs for places locals used to be able to afford (1-2bd places) has really killed the labor force here, and now we all get to enjoy the lack of groomer drivers and other resort staff as a result.  I think I read in the local news not too long ago there are on average 8 job openings for every local worker here.  

Edited March 24, 2023 by kitejumping

[softbootsurfer]

Howdy, maybe because I am 77 and remember 38 years ago when I started surfin over at Milkland, how the grooming has been getting worse in both quantity and Quality especially over the last 12 to 15 years…by not using the front blades, the tillers, down pressure, combined with the small  grooves, we have a very inferior product other than early to mid season temps, that keep the snow dry and easily groomed, it is when the temps get warmer, that they do many runs,when the snow is still soft, then freezes overnight that there is some real inconsistency, Carving on any surface that has inconsistencies and or holes demands caution to prevent injury…like I said, I remember the Bigger Grooves and basically the entire mountain being groomed side to side so when they keep saying  “we haven’t changed anything” and denying that the Groom sucks compared to what it was… my opinion from 38 years of watching the equipment is it is not the Drivers, rather the way the manafacturers have reduced the cost by designing the current system to have less drag, less fuel, increased speeds, small grooves requiring fewer cats equals cost saving and that Bonus stock option for the CEO

[JohnE]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:35 PM, softbootsurfer said:

Well, come on over, this would be your Favorite I guess, the grooming on Racers Edge on Tiehack today

That looks TERRIBLE! I was at Vail in late January. They listed all the runs that had been groomed. I rode most of them and couldn't find any corduroy. I thought "well, maybe this was groomed at some time in history but not in the last 24 hours". It sucked. Aspen and Vail can't (or won't) produce good grooming but little old Loveland does a GREAT JOB!. I've been there once a week all season and every day starts with wonderful groom. A couple of weeks back one of our favorite runs was groomed 12 CATS WIDE!. 

(But don't tell anybody). 

Maybe Loveland can up their lift prices to $200+ per day and quit grooming. 

[John Gilmour]

My memory lines up with Softbootsurfer. Just look at SES 2006 in this site .. that snow was good and it was like that for almost any day of the season except early November and right after the New Years Cold Snap and of course freeze thaw in April.

I think the cost of living caused by all of the above has driven the cat guys away. I think they should get $80 an hour and free quality housing based upon the quality of the product they make me meal vouchers from some of the better restaurants- to me they are the true rockstars.

The resorts are putting all of their priorities in the wrong places. Aspen is putting a high speed detachable chondola in to replace the 2 lifts serving ruthies.  That will destroy Ruthies groom before it can thaw from the shade at around 9:45 -10:15 am. The lower level skiers fed from that hotel complex will track out the slopes starting at 8:30 by 9:30-10 am…and there will be no relief on less busy days.

And the Pandora expansion just takes away from side country the locals loved and puts their sleds even further from the lifts. I doubt the trail cutting will be up to the level of the rest of Ajax, as trail cutting seems to be a lost art. Few people have it. 

 

[JohnE]

On 3/24/2023 at 9:49 PM, John Gilmour said:

 

I think the cost of living caused by all of the above has driven the cat guys away. I think they should get $80 an hour and free quality housing based upon the quality of the product they make me meal vouchers from some of the better restaurants- to me they are the true rockstars.

 

 

We very often go down to the office at Loveland after a morning of great carving and rave to the people there about the wonderful grooming. The Groomers are the Rockstars of our sport!

[b.free]

I personally like variable conditions, riding only perfectly groomed runs is kinda boring. Very often I ride slopes which weren’t groomed for a day or two and it’s fun. Brings your skills to a different level. 
 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by b.free

[st_lupo]

9 hours ago, b.free said:

I personally like variable conditions, riding only perfectly groomed runs is kinda boring. Very often I ride slopes which weren’t groomed for a day or two and it’s fun. Brings your skills to a different level. 
 

 

I agree on this, but then the conditions you just highlighted look pretty soft and dry.  That is absolutely fun and teaches how to balance pressuring the board while also being dynamic and compliant over a choppy surface and is one of the conditions where carving boards still have an unfair advantage over most things (imo).  Based on John's description of the freeze/thaw cycle at Aspen and the photo from Soft Boot Surfer, I am imagining shitty uneven grooming early in the evening that freezes into ballistic plate through the night with 2 to 3cm square edge steps, yowtch.  

[John Gilmour]

Still waiting for good consistent  grooming. An Aspen local said after Doug was canned another groomer left and another ski company poached another one of Ajax groomers and Snowmass lost their best groomer.  The groomers can afford to live here, and the aging population of periodontal  cougars is scaring them off. 
 

‘’Monday they did buff out Ajax, (FIS was really awesome) but with some sketchy ruthie soft spot traps, overall it was a relief to have some grooming , but again it’s gotten pretty bad. Today was 5 inches of powder on frozen scratchy groom.  Yesterday was Aztec  totally uneven lumpy AFTER grooming, and that was pretty treacherous, usually it’s carveable but this was skid skipping city. 
 

…even with this complaining, probably this week was the best of season so far, and a far cry from what the snow can be. 
 

Inhave high hopes for tomorrow’s groom.
 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by John Gilmour

[Cthulhufish]

On 3/24/2023 at 7:16 AM, Ladia said:

Well $10 beer and $35 parking doesn’t do it, so they need to make money somehow

Don't forget the $3k season pass.

Ski Co seems to be focusing on "exclusive" experiences with their new Aspen-X brand. Now you can pay a few hundred bucks to stand on snow and drink overpriced wine outside the Sundeck.

Anyway, I like Ajax for the steep mogul runs, not the carving. And we have been dipping in and out of Spring weather lately, so the snow quality varies a lot.

[queequeg]

Is there any evidence of Aspen Ski Co correcting this unfortunate development in the grooming quality? I have been thinking about taking a week or two off to ride in Aspen this winter, but I'm not willing to pay Aspen prices if the trend suggests the grooming will look like this . Say it ain't so!

On 3/23/2023 at 12:35 PM, softbootsurfer said:

 

 

[b.free]

13 hours ago, queequeg said:

Is there any evidence of Aspen Ski Co correcting this unfortunate development in the grooming quality? I have been thinking about taking a week or two off to ride in Aspen this winter, but I'm not willing to pay Aspen prices if the trend suggests the grooming will look like this . Say it ain't so!

 

This picture of one black runs in Buttermilk, which oftenly closed for the public, i would not judge all 4 resorts by it. So far, after 10 years living in CO, i have never been bugging about Aspen mountains grooming conditions. Btw, big group of carvers are going back to Aspen this coming season in Feb. 7th - 16th!

Edited November 9, 2023 by b.free

[queequeg]

26 minutes ago, b.free said:

This picture of one black runs in Buttermilk, which oftenly closed for the public, i would not judge all 4 resorts by it. So far, after 10 years living in CO, i have never been bugging about Aspen mountains grooming conditions. Btw, big group of carvers are going back to Aspen this coming season in Feb. 7th - 16th!

Thanks ! I was under suspicion that this is the way to look at this; I appreciate the confirmation. My plans are not totally solidified but I’ll likely be there when y’all are :D.

[John Gilmour]

It also depends on how you ride. 
 

From my style of low to the snow high speed carving , I really benefit from having a very clean, even grooming suface  with  no groomer  ridgelines, and no unexpected bumps or death cookies. If those sort of things exist, I can’t ride at the speed I typically ride at safely.

 

I’ve loved Aspen grooming for as long as I can remember, I was even there opening day at Snowmass with my mother, I’ve always loved Aspen. However, the new grooming machines really squish the air out of the snow it feels more like East Coast conditions on some days and frankly, a lot of the East Coast groomers could do a lot better job than the current staff at Aspen.

 

If you want to ensure a great time, I would split your time between Aspen and Beavercreek 

There also used to be low-cost eating choices in Aspen you could eat at little Annie’s, the red onion, and a few other places there are no low-cost eating options

You should budget for about $180-220 a night for two people with a single glass of wine . And unfortunately, the food quality has gone downhill. The attitude has been. Let’s throw a little stale trust truffle oil and fried parsley on average french fries and charge $23.
 

For me, the big draw for Aspen has always been that almost every day has a few hours of sunlight without flat light and many days are just bluebird days start to finish that has also changed in recent years but still it’s probably your best bet in colorado  for a sunny day. 
 

Last season we had good early seasons now and good late season now but from Christmas to the third week in March it wasn’t very good. which was shocking because many nights it snowed a few inches overnight, so I was expecting fantastic conditions. 

 

I’m kidding I’m really debating whether or not to buy a season pass this year or  to go to other resorts. That’s really hard because I’ve got a fantastic place to stay for free in Aspen..

Edited November 10, 2023 by John Gilmour

[softbootsurfer]

I am going to say it one more time, it is NOT THE CAT DRIVERS, it is the SCREED that puts the Grooves in the SNOW, they changed it, now maybe 14 years ago, they are much smaller, the Grooming is like that now worldwide!!!

The reduced down pressure, less tilling..no front blade, with the tiny grooved Screed for the finish is a bunch of Crap !!!  It let's their Cats haul ass all over the place, cuts fuel cost, giving the CEO that Bonus...It makes the Snow HARDER and slicks off after one person goes over it, it is particularly dangerous on Crowns were skiers slide to stop, It doesn't matter to Ace on his Squall or my skiing buddies, It matters to Gilmore, it matters to Cliff and Curly, it mattered to Mike and Joey, it matters to me, I really don't care if it doesn't matter to some HB on a 180 Gun with sharp edges either OK...Mangement has ignored the complaints as it was mostly from just a few Locals, though my 50 year Instructor friends started compiling 4 years ago to no avail as well...now mixed with the warmer temps the perfect Groom of Old is just that, you have to be Old to remember just how Good it was...

[John Gilmour]

Rode today Nov. 30th waited until 10:30 for it to soften up . The  conditions were what you might expect at 2pm at Killington on a holiday weekend .

except … there is no one here . It’s not a holiday weekend , it’s not the east coast .  And frankly it’s not Aspen Mountain brand .

New CEO 

typical Aspen opening day conditions are really good sometimes bordering on amazing early season groom. 
 

this year …. Sigh.  Only the top of the mountain was open so no top to bottom skiing forcing downloading . 1 hour lift lines ,  and we are not Vail. That was Ajax.

snowmass only elk camp lift - pretty much one trail . 

The new CEO  grade so far it’s an D- , F would be if he didn’t open . 

[lonbordin]

I want to be empathetic... and tell you I feel your pain.

 

But that would be a lie.  


As the kids say, "Git' Good!"

[Odd Job]

6 hours ago, John Gilmour said:

this year …. Sigh.  Only the top of the mountain was open so no top to bottom skiing forcing downloading . 1 hour lift lines ,  and we are not Vail. That was Ajax.

So is Aspen for the plebs who couldn't afford the Yellowstone club now?

[dhamann]

sounds like T2 at the river pushing to open while the colors are still pretty. we're at least due for a couple good 6" storms at some point. it can only get better. thank a snowmaker.