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Aspen grooming is dangerous.


John Gilmour

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I have been coming to Aspen since the very first day Snowmass opened. Dec. 17, 1967. Bamboo poles and all.

If you go back to the 1980's there used to be signs that said  "please fill in your hole" because the snow was so fluffy if you wiped out you left a dent in the slopes. Not anymore those days are long gone .

I remember taking off my snowboard  in 1987 and trying to walk and sinking in to my shins on the packed powder.- on the trail!

There was not so much of an advantage to riding alpine gear, and many days the snow would be a bit soft for alpine gear ..trenching too deeply. aspen was softbooters dream.

 

Now... Snow grooming quality has steadily decreased year after year.

Sure it's ridable, but not amazing as it once was. The snow is really EAST COAST hard. Like what you would expect at Killington, in VT , on a mediocre day at 2:30 pm on a Saturday. In fact I would bet that Killington had quite a few days with better grooming than Aspen this season- despite the heat wave, the rain etc.  And IMHO Killington is one of the worst of New England's larger areas for Grooming.  Typically Stratton, Mt. Snow, Loon, and Gunstock all do much better.

It's not the worst. Hunter Mountain is ready dangerous for snow surface. And Ive experienced really bad snow at Crotched Mountain ... sooo bad. But that's after a melt down RAIN AND  cold snap.

But for the West ????? AND NO RAIN, NO MELT DOWN?? What's fogging on Aspen? Mike Kaplan Aspen CEO is splitting on us. Or maybe he already left.

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/kaplan-announces-he-will-step-down-as-leader-of-aspen-skiing-co/

 

Alpine carving practically "requires" good surface to really really enjoy yourself. This season at Aspen I can expect to catch jackhammers at high speeds on most days. And that's while riding a much more forgiving soft boot set up1 Buttermilk used to be the Mecca for old pro surfer carvers.

I have always enjoyed Aspen, its 350 days of sun (not so this year) and its amazing snow management made it a perennial favorite. The World Carving group, expression session, bromada- we all came here to carve.

However, as a FIRM warning to people on this site who really want to experience excellent snow- you won't find it in Aspen any longer.  My suggestion for your epic snow adventure is to go to Vail Beaver Creek.

The lift lines won't be as bad as Vail, but the snow quality is several magnitudes better than what has been in steady decline at Aspen. I posted something similar last year.

Just look at the FIS race we had last week and see how many PRO FIS racers had issues. Prinoth who can lay down some excellent cord was in charge of the final grooming product, but Aspen obviously didn't give them much to work with. Lots of racers were having issues through "straw pile" . 

Racers eventually adapted to find different lines, and there were some really weird late race upsets. Like Jarod Goldberg getting 6th from 56th. Two ties from team USA for 13th late in the game.  That should never happen. Typically courses degrade and after 30-40 racers you will have difficultly cracking into the top 10-15 spots.

I'm not even sure I could consider a professionally injected FIS course to have any comparison to Aspens base snow..... but those Prinoth guys seem to make a good product both for top competitions and recreationally (Montucky)  if they have enough time with it.

It's been a really good snow year for Aspen, with no rain. its been plenty cold. Yet all four Mountains Highlands, Ajax, Buttermilk, Snowmass GROOMING has been lackluster. Probably Buttermilk has suffered the least but still is considerably off its buttery mark.

There really is no reason  to pay Aspen's exorbitant restaurant costs, sky high hotel costs, difficulty to get here with expensive flights, and their $224 daily lift ticket rate for weekends and holidays UNLESS the SNOW is STELLAR.

Breckenridge and the front range win for Snowbunnies, Aspen's cougars are legendary if that's what you're after. Night life has eclipsed all the other resorts ...but again $$$$. Lots of very business savvy over 40 women with no kids looking for the private Jet guys with more $$$ (who ironically could care less about the income of the women they date) are here. So those women seem to be forever single. And since most carvers are older men- maybe that's a plus? 

Vail Beaver Creek has aggressive and frankly belligerent on snow staff- I was almost run into the trees once by their on snow staff- on purpose. food isn't very good either. And their parking is true pain, but the snow is at least heavenly.

So what have been your thoughts about the snow this year at your resorts compared to Aspen?

I interviewed a few grooming staff and they blamed it on the tillers used which crush the air out of the snow as opposed to the Big round rollers they used to use.

I rode a sheet of ice with pebbles in it today that was really steep and I had maybe 2-3 degree margin for error side slipping the entire 800+ vertical feet.

A friend of mine fell and was knocked out. because of the grooming and was quadriplegic paralyzed for 15 minutes at Snowmass and was taken to the hospital . Doctors said he needed mandatory spinal surgery. Only his  Apple Watch auto dialed 911 and saved him. Seems to be fewer ski patrol around.

I managed to get him the care he needed to fix his 2 vertebrae and put his ribs back in place.  So he is now improving. But I don't want any of my friends from this site to experience what he went through.

Maybe you get lucky and have a few great days. we are getting 18" of snow in the next 3 days so maybe we will have a few good days sprinkled in.

But if you are an older carver and can't afford an injury and possible surgery I'd wait for the grooming to turn around. We probably lost a few good groomers with tons of experience to retirement. Frankly any good east coast groomer worth his salt could make Aspen snow amazing. It practically snows every 3rd day. But still its super awful!

I can ride a variety of crap conditions, after all I rode hard boots on the East coast for decades. But it's been really bad here. I hurt my back a few weeks ago m(bette now) when it looked fresh groom but it was just a skim job over irregular frozen plate underneath.

I can make it look to others on the lift like its good conditions, by slicing through icy stuff and leaving a trench that has some staying power most of the time , but some of  this stuff.... I can't put a dent in it.

 

You have been warned.

 

Edited by John Gilmour
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1 minute ago, John Gilmour said:

[snip]

I have always enjoyed Aspen, its 350 days of sun (no so this year) and its amazing snow management made it a perennial favorite.

[snip]

 Frankly any good east coast groomer worth his salt could make Aspen snow amazing. It practically snows every 3rd day. But still its super awful

 

These statements seem incompatible.  Does it snow every third day, or does it get lots of sun?

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Ah,how can that be ??,  you ask... well that's the Aspen Paradox. 

 

Aspen gets most  of its snow, like 80% , at night . We typically have a disproportionate amount of bluebird powder days as a result and almost no wind. (not this year though- many cloudy flat light days in a row and no huge dumps either)

Also if a day starts out as cloudy typically the sun pokes out quite BRIGHTLY for a few hours before the lifts close. Making it feel like you had a sunny day even if the forecast was partly cloudy. This hasn't been the case this year , which should have made it easier for groomers to make a good surface. 

Edited by John Gilmour
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The reason is the screed which is the last thing to touch the snow leaves these small current grooves, less down pressure, with faster Cats, have created crappy groom, this style is now prevelant world wide, the older larger groove groom is not coming back either…I have been complaining to the Management as well as mountain managers for over 10 years when the smaller grooves first showed up….they always play the stupid card with their responses, fact is, they are compressing the snow so much in places that there can be no grooves at all in those zones where people slide to a stop, as well as crowned areas… dangerous is what it is                                   I      hit a couple runs today that were 2 day old groom where I had to go numb as I slid through as if I was in and ice rink……for fun John   Ask Travis Benson Aspen mt . Manager if he recalls me asking him 😁 before I asked Peter King another mt. Mananger, Rich Berkley who manages all skico equipment, we had email discussions starting 10 years ago… always the same responses then, they are the same size they always have been, or there isn’t enough snow this year…38 years at Milkland I remember the larger “Ride the Edge” Groom was Incredible!!!  but it is gone forever😳

 

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1 hour ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

HARD disagree 

Well my personal favorite is chalk . But for the median level carver I see more of them getting in early morning  groom good stuff and sometimes calling it quits just when the chalk starts getting good . However I’d like to see anyone carve the junk I was on today . I watched on of the better snappy laid over carving skiers just eat it in front of me without him I would have hit it too. 
 

I took to hardboots and when everyone else was in soft boots (early 80s)  because of increased control on harder snow because in the 1980s in New England we mostly had surface gap gun artificial snow and there were not that many “snow cannons “ yet . 
 

I probably should have tried to video the conditions but if I dropped my phone e it would have taken off. 

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I was actually getting a tad bored riding good groom this year so I started seeking out 1-2 day old groom to improve my riding. Holy cow did it work and I even ended up having a lot of fun doing it. Body position and turn placement became amplified causing any mistakes to come to the surface. I almost prefer old groom to fresh bad groom.

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24 minutes ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

I was actually getting a tad bored riding good groom this year so I started seeking out 1-2 day old groom to improve my riding. Holy cow did it work and I even ended up having a lot of fun doing it. Body position and turn placement became amplified causing any mistakes to come to the surface. I almost prefer old groom to fresh bad groom.

Who needs those groomers anyway:)

Edited by b.free
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 Carbin Marvin come on out to Aspen !  There’s more ungroomed slopes here than groomed so by all means come and give it a shot .

Spent the morning with a cute skier that  I was riding with last week. I hadn’t heard from her in 5 days  and this past Monday she was in the park at Buttermilk because it was the only good stuff there . Flat light . A skier cut her off and she ended up behind a snowboarder that had cut in front of her . As she was the downhill skier she avoided him even though he really cut into her path blond hard and suddenly - so she went off the trail because the edges were ungroomed .

she woke up in the ER.  Helmet distorted stitches in her neck - almost broke her law hitting the tree, hematoma on her right knee, and sprained left ankle (in hardboots no less).  Ribs bruised badly and 2 knocked out of place . 

She was so out of it she was looking at the ER tech and couldn’t see half of the techs face .  So I get a text from her and she was sulking . I brought her some Arnica and she was like “don”t be shocked I have no make up and I’m really banged up”.  She looked like she had picked a fight with MS-13.
 

Come on over Marvin it’s a total party here. Lots of morphine  , fentanyl, dilaudid, 
Available after your last run. 
 

I will swap to Beaver Creek next year . Every year it has gotten worse , and when it gets to the point that a good day at Killington beats the best days at Aspen … it’s time to re-evaluate my risk profile . 
 

Guys - I’m not kidding . It only hurts me to say this because I certainly won’t get more  fun people to ride with  if I tell people to go elsewhere .

 Car in Marvin , people will believe you - if you come to Aspen we will go ride ice together - I’ll do it in softies on a Powder board . At least you and I won’t get hurt . 

Edited by John Gilmour
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$hithole lovey groom has been pretty spectacular again this season. We'll see what happens once we hit melt freeze season.  Come slum with us sometime John, ain't much of an apres scene, but the riding has been stellar

Mario

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19 hours ago, Odd Job said:

Sounds like hero snow for...

Carve Master Curt!

It’s beyond  only a few ice riders that I know . Certainly Jack M. and  Beckmann would have a field day on the ice .  But the Loaf gets that on occasion . When it iced up in VT it just made the skiers ⛷️ move so slowly cautiously and reduced the chances of them coming into your path .

 

30 minutes ago, big mario said:

$hithole lovey groom has been pretty spectacular again this season. We'll see what happens once we hit melt freeze season.  Come slum with us sometime John, ain't much of an apres scene, but the riding has been stellar

Mario

LCI company is great no matter what the conditions . I can’t afford any of Aspen anprès scene  anymore except for the awesome museum parties where my turtles are on the list . **** - I’m not even in the list - they are .

 

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Riding in NZ @ Cardrona the evenness of the groom depends a great deal on the temperatures. If the snow is even slightly slushy at the end of the day, with temps around 0C/32F or just higher at the time of the groom then there will be significant level changes at the border between one groom pass and the next.

Had some good correspondence with the Head of grooming at Cardrona after a particularly rough groom compared to the high standard they normally manage. The change in levels made it impossible to carve safely, indeed crossing from one groom pass to another was a tricky transition even when just skidding turns. 

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So just recently since 12 March we got a bunch of snow. So we went riding some of the powder and of course I’m waiting for some of the grooming to kick in. That way I can kick into high gear.
 

Well, we were supposed to get 40° temperatures today so I figured why not do the low altitude buttermilk first because they usually groom the entire mountain, and then it’s gonna get really icy after today so that when we can kind of cross Buttermilk off the list and just do the high altitude sections of the other mountains that won’t have lower altitude freeze thaw.

 

I parked a Buttermilk West and I was kind of surprised, because only half of the trail underneath the lower part of the chairlift was groomed, and it was pretty choppy. Then I ran into Softbootsailor who is carving very nicely underneath the top half of that chair lift. Those conditions were very good. Pitch was mellow and the trail not very wide for western trails- but he had chosen the best of the limited terrain that was groomed  .

 

…so I get pretty excited seeing that nice tiny trail and thought maybe I can actually ride some good groom on some steeper terrain .

The connecting trail between buttermilk Easton buttermilk west was groomed.

Then from the main chair. It seemed like only the top section, and then one trail down to the bottom was actually groomed. The bottom was very scratchy and could have been done a lot better- kinda dangerous for Buttermilk- I thought . The bottom was very icy and funneled people together sorta tight. I avoided a blind side collision from another Snowboarder turn actually turned that negative into a positive by giving him a couple pointers on how to ride better he was a 16-year-old 220 pounds and wasn’t used to checking over his shoulder he could’ve flattened one of the 35 pound kids on the slope. But the way conditions were he didn’t have much maneuverability on the ice as a novice- Lowe intermediate from Texas- and he was on pretty good brand, new gear, a directional board and still he was having trouble.

 

So we went over to the Tiehack side, and again it was really only one trail from the top that was groomed to the bottom of Tiehack lift.…and it wasn’t that seamless overlapping grooming that we’ve come to know and love from Buttermilk, there were ridgelines all over it from the grooming, and only some sections were really good. I was kind of blown away because I was really expecting fantastic conditions.

Now, granted, last night was a Monday night, probably a lot of the grooming staff had the day off, but to get three trails for your lift ticket price seems a bit stingy.

Joey Waltemath, she’s the operations manager at buttermilk . X games is long gone… not sure what she is overseeing right now.

I couldn’t find the job description for Aspen Ski Company, but I imagine the job descriptions are pretty similar between different ski mountains. Here’s the mountain description for Homewood.

And since I worked in Buttermilk during X games running sleds , at one point, I do recognize quite a few of these job descriptions mentioned as being part of her job as head of operations.

Duties and Responsibilities
• Responsible for the overall Mountain Operations including the following departments; Lift Operations, Lift Maintenance, Snowmaking, Grooming, Terrain Parks, Trail Maintenance, Weddings, and Special Events.
• Oversee the management and administration of operations to produce an exceptional guest and employee
experience.
• Develop and maintain company policies and procedures regarding guidelines established by regulatory
agencies and best practices in the ski resort industry. Assist and produce direct reports with budgetary
responsibilities as necessary.
• Assist direct reports with the development of budgets, goals and objectives to improve the performance of
each operation.
• Attend and actively participate in all senior team, leadership meetings, operational meetings, and required
company functions.
• Communicate information to all Mountain Operations staff to ensure the proper distribution of resort
activities and general information.
• Responsible to oversee and participate in the hiring and training for all employees to ensure a professional
on mountain team is developed.
• Evaluate performance of all staff members regularly, including disciplinary action as needed.
• Complete proper paperwork and reporting as required by operations, human resources and legal regulations
are done in a timely and accurate manner.
• Ensure the ski lifts are being maintained and operated in accordance with the rules and regulations of
CPTSB, ANSI regulations.
• Plan the necessary inventory to be ordered and stocked with the necessary supplies to maintain all
equipment for the resort.
• Oversee the scheduling of snowmaking production to ensure a successful winter skiing experience. Track
all water usage for billing process. Monitor electrical usage to control overall expenses for the company.
• Coordinate and oversee the grooming schedule to ensure a quality guest experience on the mountain.
• Responsible to ensure all drivers are licensed and all vehicles are maintained in accordance with the DOT rules .

(for instance Joey had me do a license for snowmobiles ) 

I willsee if I can find out the other Directors of Mountain Operations for the other three mountains of aspen,, and their emails so if your experience is not the Aspen brand experience you paid for and expected as a “brand” is a promise of quality - you can email your comments about your experience and past expectations to them and CC the new Aspen CEO and CC your comments here .

 

Then you can monitor in real time Aspens improvement. Let’s see if we can keep the comments to known riders with more than 10 years if Aspen carving . Of course anyone coming from the East Coast for the first time would probably think, well at least it’s as good as the East Coast and sunny. But what we really want is that type of groom style that’s practically hero snow all the time.
 

For years we have relied on Aspen weather and grooming quality to host a number of snowboard carving events .

the Aspen Expression session 

the World  carving session 

Bromada

and more. 

As I gather Emails hopefully we can help Aspen regain their place for reliable bluebird carving days - seamless grooming , and consistent grooming quality from top to bottom .

I don’t know how many of you read this if you don’t ride Aspen. But if you are having trouble with the grooming quality going down at your favorite mountain locally, I’d encourage you to start a similar thread listing your mountain.

Good trail maintenance helps reduce a lot of accidents, and with so many people on this forum being over 50 years old we heal a lot slower. Probably a lot of us are over 60 years old.

Edited by John Gilmour
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We got a ton of snow over the past few days. So after a horrible day at Ajax - with most of it ungroomed - I decided to go to buttermilk . Surely you need some consistency of slopes for beginners . It was a real mess.  March 16 with about 6 inches of fresh. What I would normally expect are a few nice groomed trails with a lot of powder left to dove in and out of - but certainly to have groomed trails . 
 

Only the connections between tiehack, buttermilk and buttermilk West were done once again . The highest speeds anyone felt comfortable with were sun 10 mph. 

A jarring experience , one skier with me suffered a twisted knee .  I just couldn’t get over how easy it would have been to just run the groomers ina quick skim in the morning - but once again neglected . 
 

Even the ski instructors were struggling with their students sprawled all over on the slopes with at least 1 or 2 on the ground .

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Seriously, LOOK at the Screed on the Cats, the last thing to touch the snow!!!  Little 3/4in. grooves

Increase the Cats Speed, reduce the down pressure and tilling sequences, the runs and width of grooming on all runs...

Yea, that equals a bunch of crap, compared to 20 years ago

Like I said, I have complained, Milkman, Joey, Michael, some of my 50 year Instructor friends and many others voiced their displeasure, starting at least 10 to 12 years ago... all to no avail...and John is correct, when he says it is Dangerous, particularly when you have inexperienced users... 

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So much new snow now, it’s been good carving.  Like really the best all season 3 days ago. We got tons of snow today… zero scratch or hard snow plate right now.. it’s like mid winter conditions. 
 

if we get regular snow like this it’s pretty tough for the groomers to mess it up. I did find out that a key groomer employee  we needed was fired for driving the cat down the Aspen bell drunk after a holiday party…so that’s likely a big part of it. Wish Mike Kaplan didn’t fire the guy. 

Edited by John Gilmour
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On 3/9/2023 at 6:43 PM, Carvin' Marvin said:

I was actually getting a tad bored riding good groom this year so I started seeking out 1-2 day old groom to improve my riding. Holy cow did it work and I even ended up having a lot of fun doing it. Body position and turn placement became amplified causing any mistakes to come to the surface. I almost prefer old groom to fresh bad groom.

Well, come on over, this would be your Favorite I guess, the grooming on Racers Edge on Tiehack today

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Pictures of the poor groom definitely helps one see the problem versus pictures of turtles.

That is crazy bad for any ski area and one would think truly unacceptable for Aspen. I would definitely skwal that though…just sayin. Stay safe out there!

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