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Sidecut Radius


JohnE

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My Donek Rev 163 is 8-9.5 scr.  I don't see any  disadvantages....you just have  to be prepared it will switch directions in the blink of an eye just by thinking about it, it's that responsive if you want it to be and it will pitch you in the woods if you don't stay alert and on top of it!      It will also cruise and sideslip if needed but when going that slow you can actually feel it grumble and not want to track well under your feet as it just wants to haul ass.......and Turn!    You can get ALOT more TPR with a smaller scr....Turns Per Run.

I good exercise we do is see how many full turns you can squeeze out just between two lift towers. with typical 13-15 scr I was getting 8-9 good turns.....on the Rev I can easily get 12-14 if I'm pushing it!    

Great for smaller mtns. and tighter and/or crowded runs.  It's my weekend "hard charging carving and dodge the obstacles" ride for sure!     

Fun on a big mtn. if you pick one run and work it but not the All Mtn explore every run ride imo.

When I go to Heavenly I'll bring a couple of boards and use the Rev for the first couple of hours of hard charging  on the same run/lift until my legs tell me it's time to switch or the crowds get too big to dodge and then switch to my Swoard Dual   to cruise or carve at a more casual pace.

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Hometown Hero 144, 6.6m.

A bigger board would make illegal speeds easier, and could turn at the same time, but if we were racing then I could just straight line, if I could be bothered. I'll usually be the fastest person on the slope who is actually turning and in control.

And I can carve happily even indoors. And ride powder all day.

Downsides? Can't think of any. I've been riding steadily smaller boards as I got better. Like surfboards, it's a style thing 😉

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I think my Madd 158 reissue is supposedly around 8.5m scr I think and very good fun. It's stout enough that at anything like a normal speed I don't find it to be trying to send me into the woods. It'll growl at me if I try to stretch a turn too far. My Proteus 180 is 13m and needs a lot more commitment to make a sharp turn, but will hang in on really long turns somewhat better, and blows through variable snow way better also. My favorite board ever was a custom Coiler Racecarve - 180cm, 12.5m radius which, although it was quite stiff, for some reason would turn inside almost anything on softer snow, but was nowhere near as good on ice as either of the other boards.

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Lib Tech Short & Fat 146 with 5.8m scr I believe. Well the board is rather wide (286mm) so it's possible to ride with pretty relaxed angles without too much boot outs. Still not wide enough though. The downside of trying to do laid down carves with that board is this:

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Basically just riding the nose and tail of the board there and if the snow is softer, you'll just carve a trench and boot out, like here:

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6ft. 165 lbs.  3 strap...Union Force SB set up

Descent snow at Sams Knob today, 1st day out...38th season on a Stick

Burton 158 3D Double Dog with a 7.6 rad.  Liked this Stick, even better than the Land Lord series, the 3D aspects are quite marvelous, will devour Pow when available...I really like having moved all my Sticks to shorter lengths, mixed with all the new technology, a long way from the 173 Supermodels years ago...

2122737719_1583DdoubleDog.JPG.a0541ba7ad6ff42312b055ef79f303ae.JPG

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Keep in mind can be SCR blended and can feel quite different depending on whether it’s single-radius or multi-radius blend (and if blended, how that was actually done).

10.5 is currently smallest for me, on a 165 Rad Air Reto Lamm. That’s ok for high speed fast riding, but not practical when things get tighter or surfing in trees or tight spots…I just haven’t been at hills where I’m doing that lately (unfortunately). I will eventually get a high-150cm, 8.5-9m wide board as a do-everything, go-anywhere rig.

In the meantime, Bruce is making me  his widest-possible 163 10m contra blend to work over, the wider Coiler version of SG’s 164 Soul Titan. So that will be the softboot groom ripper for this year.  😈

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Nothing smaller than a modern SL on hardboots; my current one is 11.5-13m (164).

Softboots? Eh whatever it is, I'm against toy sidecuts made for bro brahs though. 9-10m or so turns to about my given height in radius, so nothing smaller than 9-10m I guess. I don't know.

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16 hours ago, philw said:

Hometown Hero 144, 6.6m.

A bigger board would make illegal speeds easier, and could turn at the same time, but if we were racing then I could just straight line, if I could be bothered. I'll usually be the fastest person on the slope who is actually turning and in control.

And I can carve happily even indoors. And ride powder all day.

Downsides? Can't think of any. I've been riding steadily smaller boards as I got better. Like surfboards, it's a style thing 😉

Interesting reference to “illegal speeds”—I’ve seen some YouTube videos referencing that, is it a real thing? Like no going over 40 on a blue? Is this a “you know it when you see it” analysis or do they have radar guns? 😄 

I mean on the racing point, straight-lining is not usually how one races or rides on-piste. So isn’t that actually a good example of one downside tradeoff?

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My Flagship is 8.3 I think. The downside/upside (depending on how you look at it) of a shorter sidecut is that if you pressure the edge with any authority it comes around RFN. It’s ok just tipping it over gently but I need to spend some more time with it to get the best out of it. 
 

For those of us who like to go fast and not necessarily be turning uphill all the time a longer sidecut is better. 

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Too small a radius and you'll make 1000 turns in one run and be cooked for the day after not many runs.  I've sold or not bought a few boards because of that.  Smaller radii also have a lower "speed limit" for carving.  My favorite carving boards for use on good conditions have been around 14m to 16m.  My favorite short board, so far, to my surprise, is the F2 Speedster World Cup 163 SL which is listed at 9.8m.  I believe it's not a single radius sidecut though.  I also had a custom Donek Proteus 163 that was awesome, at 10.5m (parabolic).  We'll see how my new Winterstick 163 compares at 9-11.5-10.5m.  There are a lot of short boards I haven't tried though - Kessler, Oxess, Virus, to name a few.

7 hours ago, Corey said:

I think the Madd 158 nose was in the 6.x m range for that crazy initial hook. 

I'm not sure about that, I bought Fin's original 158 and compared it against a 2007 reissue I also had.  Despite being more like 155cm long, the o.g. definitely had a longer effective radius.  I believe they were elliptical, not VSR.  @John Gilmour?

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My Ride Yukon 172W is 9/8/9 and ideal for the tight trails I frequent in the northeast. I haven’t found any downsides other than wishing the nose was a bit decambered like my Donek, which cuts through chop much better.  I’m no speed demon either so more turns to keep speed in check suits me just fine. I don’t find it squirrelly in a straight line either. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

A shorter radius requires slower railed turns and a longer radius allows faster railed turns. I notice very starkly how, when coming off of 18 and 20 meter Furbergs, I must tip onto rail at much slower speeds on my 10-13 meter Donek. If initiating too fast, the board wants to too-quickly turn out of intended turn radius. Conversely, many people, when trying a Furberg for the first time, report falling onto their faces at their first attempt at tipping onto rail. This for lack of speed needed to rail the long radius sidecut. (See Angry Snowboarder's Furberg review pointing fingers at the board rather than his own poor technique.)

While the speed of railing boards with long radius sidecuts is exhilarating, I prefer. for sake of safety, slower turns with shorter radii for railing amidst other riders and skiers. 

I find that, off piste, long radius boards like the gen one and two Furbergs vastly outperform shorter radius boards. The evenness of edge pressure begets easier maneuverability (pivots, slarves, smears) at low speeds. It makes for safer and more predictable edge hold on steep ice (eliminating shovel or tail hooking). It also affords better stability at high speeds, where the board is not twitchy and can safely transition across edge angles and pressures (drift) within a single turn.  

Of course, how a given sidecut translates into riding characteristics depends on a host of other design attributes like profile, flex, effective edge, etc.

Edited by TWM
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/6/2022 at 7:33 AM, JohnE said:

I recall that Sean at Donek told me that a shorter SCR will be squirrely at higher speeds. However, I only want to ride as fast as necessary to carve and I try to always be on edge. 

I noticed a pretty big improvement in stability at speed when I went from a 16m to 20m sidecut radius, even though I dropped the length to a 156 from 158.  Although the increase in stiffness and width on that new board might also have had something to do with it.  I think it all depends on what kind of riding speed you want, I noticed I have to go faster to carve with the same edge angles and inclination as before on the 16m and it ends up with me having a faster overall speed then some of my friends riding on a 12-14m radius sidecut.  They end up getting in more turns per run but I end up getting in more runs.   It does however work much better for me keeping up with my wife when she is on skis making medium radius carved turns going 30mph.  

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2 hours ago, kitejumping said:

I noticed a pretty big improvement in stability at speed when I went from a 16m to 20m sidecut radius, even though I dropped the length to a 156 from 158.  Although the increase in stiffness and width on that new board might also have had something to do with it.  I think it all depends on what kind of riding speed you want, I noticed I have to go faster to carve with the same edge angles and inclination as before on the 16m and it ends up with me having a faster overall speed then some of my friends riding on a 12-14m radius sidecut.  They end up getting in more turns per run but I end up getting in more runs.   It does however work much better for me keeping up with my wife when she is on skis making medium radius carved turns going 30mph.  

Wait, **record scratch** 156cm x 20m? 

Are you carving on this? Or is it a big mountain freeride board or something? That’s….even longer than a true 185-190 GS race board! How does it have enough effective edge for the speeds required to make that come around?!?  😱
 

*Edit* so it’s a Knapton Twin? I was watching one of Ryan’s video a little while back and I think he said his sidecut was around 10m or so? You’re doubling Knapton?!?

Edited by ShortcutToMoncton
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37 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Edit* so it’s a Knapton Twin? I was watching one of Ryan’s video a little while back and I think he said his sidecut was around 10m or so? You’re doubling Knapton?!?

I'm pretty sure Ryan is riding  SCRs in the 17-20m range now. 

Check this thread, watch the vid and read the comments. 

 

 

Edited by lonbordin
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47 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Wait, **record scratch** 156cm x 20m? 

Are you carving on this? Or is it a big mountain freeride board or something? That’s….even longer than a true 185-190 GS race board! How does it have enough effective edge for the speeds required to make that come around?!?  😱
 

*Edit* so it’s a Knapton Twin? I was watching one of Ryan’s video a little while back and I think he said his sidecut was around 10m or so? You’re doubling Knapton?!?

Yep, Knapton Twin.  Ryan's on a 19.5m radius x 156cm these days, I was lucky enough to get a couple runs on his last season before ordering mine so I knew what to expect (also decided to get mine about 10% stiffer).  The shorter length and wider stance width makes noseroll 3s quite a bit more effortless than on my previous boards.  The extra clearance width of it let's me push it harder in carves so with tight, high inclination (non laid down, no snow touch) turns it decambers to more of like a 12m turn.  If I do euro knapton style laydowns it turns at the full 20m radius depending on how much edge pressure I put on it.  It rides great, don't have much videos of me riding it yet but here are a few selfie stick clips (will need to ride with someone that can film at some point to see it turning better as selfie stick videos aren't very good for that and holding the stick can be awkward for spins).

Specs 156cm x 33.5cm waist width, 33.9cm underfoot, 20m sidecut, extra stiff.  

 

 

Edited by kitejumping
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1 hour ago, kitejumping said:

Specs 156cm x 33.5cm waist width, 33.9cm underfoot, 20m sidecut, extra stiff. 

Thanks for the info! I've been thinking about around 160cm x 30cm waist width with 16m sidecut so glad to hear even more extreme specs can work. Really appreciate people pushing boundaries!

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Super interesting!! Yeah the Knapton video was probably a few years old, I guess?? 

I’d love to try one out!! Obviously there’s some finite sidecut number that’s too large. I’ve owned ~185cm Donek and Prior race boards in the past that had 15-ish sidecuts; I thought they were amazing for big Mach 1 carving in the Rockies, but I sold them once moving back East. I wouldn’t have dreamed that putting something even larger on a short wide board would be a great idea! Really awesome. 

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