Riding the Boiler Plate 4mm Lite and getting a lot of heel side rotation

[KB303]

I have been essentially working through Mark Fawcett’s Graduated Plate System to work up to the BP. Starting with the Gecko Carve on the GS board (SG Full Race 175), this unlocked a couple breakthroughs for me, namely riding more relaxed (less from the muscles and joints), which allowed me to focus more on my technique. As a speed freak (and you can blame my skiing background as well), my habits / tendencies are to stay near the fall line instead of completing my turn and slowing down. Riding the Gecko finally helped me relax and focus enough so I could work on completing my turns and consistently carve down the blues rather than blasting through 8-10 turns then having to scrub some ridiculous speed. 

Switching the Gecko to the SL board (VIRUS SL Hypercarbon 168) also yielded a very intuitive feel and more relaxed riding - that is, less tension in my feet and legs and more fluid in my hard-charging style. After that, switching to the Boiler Plate on the GS board seemed pretty automatic. No adjustment period at all. Except for one weird thing. 

Starting with a very slow speed at the top of the hill or on a catwalk, when I put even just a little bit of pressure on the heel side, my back foot seems to shoot forward uncontrollably, causing a big rotation and of course a skid. This caught me so off-guard on the first day, one time I actually looked down at my binding to see if I wasn’t clipped in correctly or something. So bizarre. Also after the first day riding the BP, I concluded I must have been fighting that tendency to rotate / skid on the heel side turns because my back leg and my glute on that side were quite sore. I thought it might have to do with my axle placement. I have a 47 cm stance width, and I initially had the BP axles 56 cm apart. I’ve been primarily using Sigi’s instructions for the SG plate on where to place the bindings relative to the axles. This seems easier for me (and gives me a range to shoot for) than to try to approximate the location of the ball of the foot relative to the axle. So following his instructions, I wanted to make the plate / board less reactive by moving the axles out. Now I’m at 59 cm for the axle width. The center of the front binding is 5.5 cm behind the axle. The center of the rear biding is 6.5 cm ahead of the axle. Sigi’s recommendation is 4-8 cm for the setback (or set forward). 

This seemed to help a little, but the rotation is still very prevalent at slow speed, and at high speeds I’m getting some big, skidded heel side turns. Not always, however, so I assume I’m figuring out how to compensate for this rotation, which obviously isn’t a good long term plan. 

Sorry about the long history to get to the primary question(s).... 

I’m not sure where to begin to diagnose this: 

• I don’t know if it is something caused by the BP, or is the BP just revealing something else that’s wrong about my setup or technique? 
• The way the rear foot shoots forward, I considered whether a greater splay would help, lowering the angle on the rear binding. I’m currently riding at 58 / 55, slight outward cant on the front (I think it’s 0.2) and 0-cant on the rear. I have no idea if this would help, but it seems like it might encourage me to keep my foot and hip back. Likely shooting in the dark here. 
• Or is the low torsion of the 4 mm Lite causing a big reaction to the board through some pedaling action? It seems like maybe that could be the case in high speed turns, but the slow speed stuff is especially confounding. 

Since there seem to be a lot of different directions that I could go with this, I’m hoping to get some advice from the community to help my trial and error be more focused on likely successful outcomes. Thanks, all. 

Keith 

[Jonny]

I'm having trouble picturing how this is happening - is your back foot forward lean adjuster set very loose perhaps?

I will say that with the BBP 4mm Lite I found myself MUCH more comfortable when I turned it around and rode with the fixed axle in front and the back foot floating. I'm on a Proteus 180 which likes a fairly centered stance, but in this configuration I feel like my long-ingrained technique of pouncing on the front foot to initiate and then progressively weighting the tail to really finish the turn across or even up the hill works more naturally than when the front foot is floating.

[lonbordin]

29 minutes ago, KB303 said:

my back foot seems to shoot forward uncontrollably,

Ok either it does or it seems to ..

Uncontrollably? C'mon the whole system at low speed is well within your bodies ability to control.

What are your hands doing during this phase?

What is your upper body doing?

If you grab your pants does this still occur?

Even a hand held smartphone video would go a long way here...

[Mr.E]

I found I didn't like to ride plates (BP or SG) with SG's axle recommendation. I looked at how my UPM JJA boards were set up and imitated that- on a 4x4 set up and with the BP that is prety well maxing out the axle spacing. With axles too close, I felt like the back of the board was harder to control (at any speed). I've also found that in general I've added a couple of degrees less to my rear foot on iso plates.

If you haven't, make sure all the hardware is adjusted and tightened appropriately, just in case.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Mr.E

[KB303]

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

I'm having trouble picturing how this is happening

You’re telling me. It was hard enough trying to figure out how to describe this. What I have above is as clear as I can get in trying to describe what the board is doing and what my body’s telling me. I can imagine how much trouble there must be in trying to picture this. 

I'm riding the .951 WC’s. Forward lean is a bit more on the back than the front boot. Stock setup with the springs. Nothing’s loose. 

Thanks for the input on your experience with riding the fixed axle up front! I will give that a try. 

[KB303]

59 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Ok either it does or it seems to ..

I guess I have to go with ‘seems to’, which is why I said that. When this happens (at both slow and high speed) my hands are at my sides for balance, and my upper body is stable (not rotating), shoulders square to the angle of the front binding. Haven’t tried this while holding on to my pants. I guess I could give that a try at slow speed. I don’t know if that would be much of a test at high speed since I can’t reproduce this as often at speed. Sorry, no video of this happening. If you think of when you first learned to ride (well assuming your experience might be similar to mine) and you loaded up the front foot and kicked forward with your back foot to cause a heel side skid, it feels like that. But in this case you’re balanced on both feet, you’re pressuring your boots to get onto the heel side edge, and you’re not kicking your back foot forward. Since this happens when I’m not doing anything that would normally cause a heel side skid like that, that’s why I call it ‘uncontrollable’, and weird, catching me off-guard, bizarre, and confounding. Wish this made more sense. 

52 minutes ago, Mr.E said:

prety well maxing out the axle spacing. With axles too close, I felt like the back of the board was harder to control (at any speed).

Sounds similar to what I’m experiencing. I appreciate the tip on maxing out the axle spacing. Since I saw a little bit of improvement today moving from 56 to 59 cm, I may need to try 62. Seems crazy given my 47 cm stance width, but probably worth a shot. Thanks! 

[barryj]

Would love to see some photos of This setup...with boots attached to see where your BP axles and boots line up.  Anything would give us more to go on.

Your BP setup  4x4 or UPM?

I love my BP 4mm Lite V2 and had a similar skating issue.    Moving plate back 2 sets of inserts helped but widening  axle stance helped even more!  

[KB303]

Thanks, @barryj for the suggestion and for your experience with the BP! Really appreciate it. Here are some photos of the setup. 
 

[KB303]

Forgot to mention, 3* cant disks, and 4x4 mount. Also the center disk is mounted on the front set of holes in order to get the setback relative to the axles that I was trying to achieve. Since that moved my stance back from center and the setback on the Full Race is already 60 mm, I opted to mount the BP lower assemblies 2 cm forward of center, thus putting my stance at a net 1 cm forward of center. Perhaps that wasn’t necessary if moving the plate back produces better results. Then again today’s setup has this forward mount vs last week’s was centered, and these issues seemed to be a bigger problem last week compared to this week. But of course there were other changes as well, namely the axle spacing and the binding setback from the axles. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by KB303
Added ‘4x4 mount’

[Mr.E]

If you think about how far apart pivots typically are on Allflex or UPM set ups, I don't know that widening the placment for the 4x4 would be detrimental. I think that's a place the BP has some advantage over the SG plates. If you look at old Apex pivots on Apex/ UPM, then what they did with their iterations of 4x4 mounts down to their current plate, I think there is merit to a wider axel placment (at least for freecarving).

Not sure where you ride, but I think some of us will be at Loveland tomorrow.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Mr.E

[KB303]

That makes sense, @Mr.E, and makes me more comfortable with the thought of going to the 62 cm spacing. Thanks! 

And shoot, I’m in Glenwood tonight, going to Beaver Creek tomorrow. Do you all meet every Sunday? I’m trying to remember a very old post (probably from the BOL days) where someone mentioned a specific chair and time to meet. I should have met up with you all years ago. I guess my dependence upon the Epic pass kept me from paying to go elsewhere. But that can change. 

[bigwavedave]

I'm thinking about the cant and lift. I had to get rid of even a slight outward cant when I switched from UPZ's to .951. Also felt much better with 6° heel lift rear. The M.S. apparently has about 3° less heel lift/boot ramp than UPZ. Everyone is different, but might be worth playing with.

Does the set-up feel comfortable when carpet surfing? Do you have fluid motion when you flex up & down bending ankles, knees, hips ect, without restrictions? 

[KB303]

@bigwavedave, likewise I eliminated my outward cant when going from UPZ to .951, except for the slight amount I still have on the front due to the 58* binding angle and 55* cant disk angle. But I think I’ll try riding 55 / 50 to have 0-cant on each and lower the rear binding angle.

Surprisingly I didn’t think to try a carpet carving session on the BP. I just duplicated what was working for me on the Gecko, which was a very comfortable, fluid stance throughout a 20-minute carpet carving test and performed well on snow. With the UPZ, I previously thought I needed to go to 6* lifts to help prevent the serious quad burn I was having. Unfortunately my riding was quite poor at 6*. Once I started riding the .951s, the stiffer boot and more upright forward lean pretty much eliminated all my quad burn even at 3*. Anyway, I’ll set up the plate again given the suggestions here and be sure to do some carpet carving before the next day out. Thanks! 

Edited March 1, 2020 by KB303
Typo

[ursle]

I found in my second year of riding after breaking my collarbone, that I was always on my rear edge, I couldn't get off it, if I touched it, it was hard to get off it, well, on really cold days.

Seemed silly but, my collarbone was broken because I ditched it rather than hit a tree.

So, I outward canted my front foot, just enough to get my hips off the board before the edge was weighted, there's a trade off, yes, you get on your rear edge later, err, you have to move your hips further to get on edge, but on the front edge, well, it's more immediate, using catek bindings to find the balance point between to much and to little outward cant for the front foot was fast with the catek bindings.

Just my observation.

[Mr.E]

I'm new to the weekend riding, but you can find more info here.LCI

[lowrider]

Neutral comfortable stance with appropriate spread based on your height. You mention forward lean on rear boot but I think no rab or unlocked rear lean mechanism may yield better results. You still need to unweight coming out of your turn so you can prep for your next turn. Riding stiff on a plate isn't the best way to gain it's advantages. Prepare your mental game trust the plate will provide the grip that it will provide but don't ignore the fundamentals. Remember the old European ski instructor in the back of your head bend zee knees plant your pole up down up down. like a racer you need to be watching further down the course not right in front of you. Concentrate on what you want to do next not  on just what happened. Carpet carving a new setup is probably the smartest use of your time. Testing how long you can hold a toe or heel side position is a good exercise at any time. If you want to get fancy and really test your muscles. place a rolling pin or any round object on the floor place a board, plank or shelf board on it and the stand on top of that with your setup maintain you balance teeter totter style and wait for your quads to start screaming. Then work on fore aft balance to eliminate the problem. Playing with angles may help. Remember a plate changes the physical way your board bends it allows it to perform more natural to it's design once you remove the flat footprint imposed by your bindings a lot of other things change. Geckos don't act anything like a plate does on a board. 

[bigwavedave]

1 hour ago, lowrider said:

 You mention forward lean on rear boot but I think no rab or unlocked rear lean mechanism may yield better results. 

Agree with that, but .951's don't lock. They are more like BTS. Rest is good info.

[Beckmann AG]

16 hours ago, KB303 said:

when I put even just a little bit of pressure on the heel side,

Where? What is your perception of pressure application? Front foot, rear foot, both feet?

16 hours ago, KB303 said:

I wanted to make the plate / board less reactive by moving the axles out

Does that mean you moved both out from a centralized location, or did you move both axles out and move the plate rearward?

 

14 hours ago, KB303 said:

But in this case you’re balanced on both feet, you’re pressuring your boots to get onto the heel side edge, and you’re not kicking your back foot forward.

Being 'balanced on both feet' may well be imparting too much bend to the front end of the board.

In general, if a board pivots or skids without you kicking it around, it's because you're bending it unevenly.

Given that your boots have an underslung heel, and that the board is hyper to the heelside, the logical place to start is to tweak your offset. From the photos you look biased to the heel side.

 

[TimW]

The axles forward of the center is definitely not helping,  as it softens the tail relatively to the nose.  On top of that your setup seem far back on the board, even relative to the already setback position of the inserts. Underslung heel puts you back even further. 

My suspicion is that you ride a bit backfooted. Directly mounted, your boots working the board would counteract that a bit,  but with a plate the full edge is more evenly engaged. 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by TimW

[KB303]

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Where? What is your perception of pressure application? Front foot, rear foot, both feet?

Thanks for your input and questions, @Beckmann AG !

When I wrote the part about putting a little bit of pressure on the heel side, in that case I was referring to just gliding along like at the top of the run after getting into the rear binding. I’d say the pressure application is just from moving my CoM slightly towards the heel side, and I feel pressure pretty evenly on the back of the cuff of both boots. This is a very subtle movement, something that doesn’t seem to warrant that kind of reaction if the board. 
 

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Does that mean you moved both out from a centralized location, or did you move both axles out and move the plate rearward?

Since I moved the axles from 56 to 59 cm, I moved only the rear axle outward from center. I moved the rear binding outward as well, which gave it a net increase of distance from the axle of 1 cm. I also moved the front binding back to maintain my stance width, and this was a net 2 cm increase in setback from the axle. However I also mounted the plate 2 cm ahead of center because I didn’t want to be too rearward biased.  
 

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Being 'balanced on both feet' may well be imparting too much bend to the front end of the board.

In general, if a board pivots or skids without you kicking it around, it's because you're bending it unevenly.

Given that your boots have an underslung heel, and that the board is hyper to the heelside, the logical place to start is to tweak your offset. From the photos you look biased to the heel side.

Gotcha. That’s all very helpful. Thanks so much! 

[Mr.E]

For what it's worth, I have my boiler plate mounting brackets centered off the reference stance. Seems to work well for me.

[barryj]

Hey KB,

It could just be the angle of the photos but the BP axles don't look even close to centered under heel and ball of your boots.............but I know nothing of where center is on UPZ's.....  

[KB303]

That’s correct, @barryj. Last week I had them closer to the ball of the foot and the heel, but this week I spread the axles out and increased the binding distance from the axles thinking that I was getting too much of a reaction from the board. I’ll try the widest axle placement next and have less heel side bias in the binding. 

[rjnakata]

I ride a 4mm BP v2 on a Coiler VSR 169 and I personally:

1) Center the plate (fore/aft) to board mounting holes

2) Use the outermost plate-to-mount holes (front and back)

3) Center (fore/aft) my boots to the plate

With UPZ (boots with a high ramp like MS): 6* front / 3* back with no cant.

I like riding the plate and had no transitional difficulties when first using it.  Things were just immediately smoother and turns grippier.

[barryj]

55 minutes ago, KB303 said:

Last week I had them closer to the ball of the foot and the heel,

What size boots?   From all my testing best performance has been with axles under, if not a little in front of ball and heel of 28.5 Deeluxe 425's 

You really got to guess/eyeball center of Where the Ball  and Heel of your foot is in the boot.  I marked those ball and heel center spots  on boot with my foot in it.......which was really different than where I had though center of ball and heel was!!