Riding the Boiler Plate 4mm Lite and getting a lot of heel side rotation

[KB303]

16 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

Looks like you like fall line carving, therefore I shared my experience as I prefer it too.

And I appreciate you sharing your experience. Also what I have borrowed from my skiing that has been helpful is transitioning to the downhill edge and applying pressure before the apex as you mentioned. That plus quick turns were primarily what enabled me to keep carving on the blues rather than having to scrub my speed. When I was riding previously, I'm sure I just missed those tips on this board. But after following Harald Harb's PMTS method for the past 12 years, I realized some of those principles and drills could be applied to my riding as well. It's been working well and allowed me to start riding again. 

[barryj]

35 minutes ago, KB303 said:

As I've been a fall line rider, I wanted to complete my turns a bit more so I could carve more consistently on the blues and control my speed. I still want to ride in a fairly narrow corridor, but previously I would build too much speed on the blues

From the video and your comments I'd suggest ditching  the Plate also and a lot of your speed and get back to learning to Drive The Board with controlled  carves.  Concentrate on carving Across the run/fall line and Back...not just Down the run.           What I see is your Riding The Board with mostly straight lining  the run with some board edge here and there.....your  speed and body movements even look more like a skier bombing down the run imo.  

11 hours ago, KB303 said:

I wasn’t riding at my normal speed and aggressiveness

If your normal speed is even faster, and you say you "build too much speed",  your not going to have the room or control  to Carve...much less being able to work on improving your Carving!   

Remember, If You Want To Carve....Slow Down ~ It's All About The Turn!   Not pointing it down the hill.......

 

 

[dgCarve]

17 minutes ago, barryj said:

Concentrate on carving Across the run/fall line and Back...not just Down the run.   

Fall line carving does not mean that you does not do turns, they usually up to 3/4 complete. Ability to do perpendicular to the fall line carving will not help to master fall line carving that much. You actually will have to work on braking some of the habits. That what I was doing when started to ride/learn "race" style. Of cause it is the best to be able to ride all styles :-). With my race setup I cant even properly do carving perpendicular to the fall line on steep slopes, as my "racing" boots just does not bend. I can not get low enough :-). If I want to scrape the slope with my body, I use softer hardoots. 

Just a note that fall line carving is generally safer, as you will take less space and will be faster that average skier on the slope... For my area, ability to do fall line carving is necessity, if you do not want to be killed

I feel that there are very few carvers who try to master fall line carving, as technically and physically it is more demanding. And speeds are higher...

Edited March 3, 2020 by dgCarve

[KB303]

Hey @barryj, yep, going to be riding a direct mount for a while so I can hone these skills. Also as the run in this video was a mild green and I was going slower than normal, there wasn't a need for me to round out the turns. I'm definitely further across the fall line and making rounder turns when at higher speed even on this run and certainly on the blues. The 'too much speed' issue on the blues is primarily because I was initiating and exiting the turns with my board more downhill than across the hill. 

[dgCarve]

Examples of typical fall line carving

 

 

[KB303]

Great video. Thanks for posting it, @barryj. 

1 minute ago, dgCarve said:

Examples of typical fall line carving

Yep, been a big fan of the videos from this group.

[SunSurfer]

A couple of questions that have implications for how you move forward from here.

Your profile says you've been snowboarding since 1995 and hardbooting since 2001. You write about your experiences carving as a long time skier and the Harb technique that you've used there.
Do you feel more like a) a snowboarder who is moving into carving snowboarding or b) a skier who is moving into carving snowboarding?

In relation to the position of your knees when you're riding, I assume your ski boots had the cuffs cant adjusted to allow your boot soles to be flat when in the skiing position. Have you done the same with your hard snowboard boots?

[KB303]

Hi @SunSurfer, I skied for many years before I started snowboarding. Just didn’t discover Harb’s system until 2007. Also I started snowboarding because I was intrigued by a snowboarder’s ability to carve on the western Pennsylvania boilerplate that I couldn’t hold an edge on with my straight skis. I learned about the importance of sidecut, and that was before shaped skis really took off. So I got the stiffest freestyle setup I could find and was a unidirectional rider who just wanted to carve fast. Then I learned about alpine gear and figured that would appeal to me more than the freestyle setup that still felt too soft to me compared to my ski gear. 
 

So I definitely consider myself a skier who has a different way to get down the mountain rather than a snowboarder who moved to carving gear. 
 

Also Harb’s team didn’t adjust my cuff but canted my soles. I believe it was 0.5 degrees out, but it seemed to make it harder for me to get on my inside edge. On the other two pairs of ski boots since then, I’ve left the cuffs centered and the soles flat. That’s been working very well for me. For the snowboard boots I’ve just followed Beckmann’s method of walking on a hard surface and checking to see if the soles strike flat. They do, so I haven’t made any cuff angle adjustments on those either. 

[SunSurfer]

The adjustment of your sole, and your feeling of then having difficulty engaging your inside edge, suggests to me you may be built with your knees closer together than usual. That's useful data in fine tuning your technique.

Alpine snowboarding is almost the illegitimate child of skiing and snowboarding. We're riding a snowboard but want to carve like elite level skiers. Those of us who come from a primarily snowboarding background likely feel most comfortable inclining the board and balancing by using heels and toes. Those of us who come from skiing, like you and I, often feel more comfortable incling and balancing using the sides of our feet and boots. Your current binding angles are heading towards the side of boot levels that are almost essential once your averaged binding angle gets to 60 degrees or higher. Averaged binding angles below about 50 degrees usually need the heel/toe technique. In between is a no man's land where both are possible. The different approaches use clearly different techniques and ways of thinking about and practicing those techniques. Advice for one style doesn't necessarily translate to the other style. Nothing stopping anyone being able to use both once they are competent at one or other, but not distinguishing between the styles will likely lead a learner to confusion and slower progress towards clean carves.

Edited March 3, 2020 by SunSurfer

[KB303]

That’s super interesting. Thanks,@SunSurfer. And that helps explain why I feel very comfortable even up to 67.5* / 65* on my Donek with an 18 cm waist, versus I felt like I had to learn to ride all over again when I tried 48* / 45* on the VIRUS with a 20 cm waist. More recently I was at 58* / 55* on the VIRUS, and that was a more intuitive feel. 
 

Other than being more aware of using the sides of the feet and boots for inclining and balancing (and having the appropriate binding angles), are there any other major technique tips that you would advise for this style? 

[dgCarve]

Just some food for thoughts:

Styles with forward directional stance and high angles (55+) are less stable in bad conditions and less agile - it could be much harder to change your direction/switch edge or change size of the turn in case of emergency or just some people on the slope. 

Doing "racing" (it is not like I am pro :-)) carving on SL board I prefer to have something like from 45/50 to 50/55 max (the lower the better). SL requires much quicker moves and benefit from a lower angles and additional stability. On GS board I can go up to 55/60 and still feel very comfortable.

With very high angles (60+) your ability to do aggressive fall line carving I feel will be compromised. In general I see racers use angles between 45/55. But some do go up to 60 on GS boards.

Just decide what style you want to ride and choose appropriate setup. As SunSurfer said, the worst you can do is to start mixing styles.

Edited March 3, 2020 by dgCarve

[SunSurfer]

@dgCarve comments above reflect the current received wisdom about racing technique, but are debatable after the success of Vic Wild at Sochi, and Ester Ledecka at the South Korean Olympics. Comparing the rear knee and pelvis angles of Selena Joerg & Ester L (especially on heelside) in the videos around that time revels that Ester, clearly an accomplished skier as well as snowboarder, is not a typical heel and toe style snowboard racer. What many people don't know about Vic Wild was that his original coach was an ex USA Ski Team member, Monique Anderson (nee Pelletier), and she left her mark on his style. Watch how both Ester and Vic drive the rear knee forward rather than across the board on their heelside turns, a clear mark of the side of the foot being used rather than a heel/toe method.

Any further discussion on this will generate a lot of "noise" for you and would be best in a separate thread. It's a topic that has strong opinions on both sides on this board.

A couple of key learning progression points for me.

2015: R Knapp led Steeps Clinic: Learning to gently lean onto my downhill edge on a traverse, feel it grip then downweight into the 'stacked" body position, lean into the turn and ride it round.

2018:

The thread documents my discovering how to carve a turn using a sense of creating pressure out of the sides of the soles of my feet. It was an evolving discovery over a period of riding in New Zealand in our winter, and then in Colorado in Jan/Feb 2019.

[dgCarve]

7 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

@dgCarve comments above reflect the current received wisdom about racing technique, but are debatable after the success of Vic Wild at Sochi, and Ester Ledecka at the South Korean Olympics. Comparing the rear knee and pelvis angles of Selena Joerg & Ester L (especially on heelside) in the videos around that time revels that Ester, clearly an accomplished skier as well as snowboarder, is not a typical heel and toe style snowboard racer. 

Just to remove confusion. Videos do not contradict to what I said. Angles by them self do not define "racing" technique. I just said that often PSL races prefer to use somewhat lower angels, as PSL requires quicker movements than PGS. In PGS somewhat higher angels used by many racers. Your videos are PGS. 

Again. Angles by them self do not define racing technique. I think, Jasey Jay was running 60/60 when he won gold in PGS for example. More important is how body is aligned to the board and bindings. It is square to bindings always. How and when turns are initiated is another point what is very different from free carving styles.

P.S. What is "toe/heel [racing] method"? It is limited and very wrong understanding of racing technique... Following this interesting way of defining racing technique it would be "knees/hips method"... 

Edited March 4, 2020 by dgCarve

[barryj]

12 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Watch how both Ester and Vic drive the rear knee forward

Aw Shucks!,  unfortunately those two IOC videos won't play on this 3rd party platform   

[SunSurfer]

 Agree. Angles don't define technique in the midrange. Skwallers will struggle to heel toe. Duck footers will struggle to ride out of the side of their boots. And racing technique is far far more complex than just how the board is put and balanced on edge.

The OP is working out which method is most suitable for him to put, and balance his board on edge. I want to focus on helping him with that.

@dgCarve

[KB303]

This is so helpful, @SunSurfer. Thanks for helping me understand how a skiing background influences our riding. I'll work on leveraging what you've shared thus far. I'm also sensitive to the fact that we're pretty far off topic at this point, and another thread in the future would be more appropriate for this discussion. 

And yep, @dgCarve, it was the typical binding angles of SL racers that had me try 45* on the VIRUS, but 58*/55* felt plenty quick to me edge-to-edge. For the reasons that SunSurfer's stating above, it makes sense that this would be more in my sweet spot given my skiing background. 

Thanks, all. I appreciate the input that everyone has provided.