Riding the Boiler Plate 4mm Lite and getting a lot of heel side rotation

[SunSurfer]

If you're going to Beaver Creek your fastest and most efficient solution may be to track down Richard Knapp who may still work as a snowboard instructor there. Richard has helped many riders here correct flaws in their hard boot technique and make much better turns at Aspen Summit Expression Sessions in the past. He is a very good hard boot rider and an excellent instructor.

One thing you haven't told us is how tall you are, or more importantly how long your legs are. An appropriate stance distance will be in proportion to your leg length. Different people of the same height may have substantially different leg lengths. As an example I use a 56cm stance distance, am 182cm tall, but I am 106cm from the top of my greater trochanter (centre of rotation of my hip joint) to the soles of my bare feet. If you don't know how to find your greater trochanter then measure your bare feet to bony pelvis inseam. Mine is 90cm.

As someone who has been riding sliding axle design isolation plates from before they were commercially available, and understands them well enough to build my own from scratch, it is highly unlikely that the plate is the cause of your problem. This type of plate makes it a lot harder to skid a turn because it fundamentally makes it harder for the rider to twist the board along its' length and disengage the edge from the groove the carved edge creates in the snow. To me your problem as described suggests a significant technique issue with how you make your heelside turn. That makes finding a really experienced rider, like Richard K above, who can see what you are doing and point you in the right direction essential. You have an equipment setup that many riders would salivate over. Given the right inputs, and allowed to do what it is designed to do, it will carve beautifully. You have to learn how to let it do that.

[KB303]

That's great feedback, @rjnakata. Thank you!  

[KB303]

4 hours ago, barryj said:

What size boots?

Hey, @barryj. My boots are 25.0. With my initial setup, I tried to estimate the location of the ball of my foot by balancing on it while wearing the boots on a hard floor, and I marked the location with some painter's tape. On that setup, I think the ball of the foot was about 1.5 cm behind the axle. But since I saw a little improvement with this issue this week with more setback, and also with several others reporting their positive experience with a wider axle spacing, it sounds like the thing I should try next. 

[KB303]

Hi, @SunSurfer. Awesome. I appreciate the advice on contacting Richard Knapp. 

I am 165 cm tall and have a 78 cm inseam. Using the method of 0.607 x inseam, that's how I arrived at a 47 cm stance width. I have also experimented with 46, 48, and 49 cm stance widths. 47 seems best for me. 

If this were only happening on my heel side turns, I'd agree that it's very likely something with my technique, or at least that has a large part to play. But since I also get this crazy rotation at a very slow, gliding speed with minor pressure on the heel side edge, and I'm primarily just trying to go straight mind you before the hill drops down, and I've never had anything like this happen with any other setup, I know there has to be a significant component of this issue coming from the plate or my setup of the plate and bindings. Also without this plate (so with direct mounts and with the Gecko Carve), the only significant issue I've had in the past (that is, what I'm aware of and working on; I'm sure others could provide other areas of improvement) is some occasional chatter on the heel side, which I typically correct by looking more in the direction I'm going or even inside the turn, looking more uphill rather than down the fall line, which is my tendency from all my years of skiing. On other setups I haven't had these big, unexpected skidded / rotational turns on the heel side either. Especially after learning to ride more relaxed (thanks to the Gecko primarily) and being able to focus more on my technique (a big change here was looking in the direction I'm going or inside the turn), I've been really happy with my carving on both sides. I'm positive there is room for improvement, but I can't discount the effect of the plate and/or the setup since I'm getting wildly different outcomes between my setups with and without this plate. Given all the great advice I've been receiving in this thread, it sounds like my setup on these first two iterations of riding the plate is what's hurting me the most. 

[KB303]

Sorry, I should have shared this video from the beginning, but I was reluctant because this isn't showing the primary problems in action. However you might be able to pick up on something. This is the first day on the Boiler Plate. Part of my reluctance to post this was because I was riding slower than normal so my fellow rider could keep up and keep me in view on his GoPro. I am SO impressed with his ability to keep me in the frame while on his board, but I also wasn't sure if this view would help or hinder your ability to analyze my riding. Also my turns really start around 0:15-0:16. Prior to that was some intentional skidded turns to get past a roller at the top of the hill before letting it run. So this will give you a sense of my riding, but I'm not at my normal speed and aggressiveness, and this is on a pretty mild green. I don't have any video of the rotation when I'm gliding at slow speed, and the big skidded turns on the heel side were happening yesterday on the blues, again not always, but this occasionally happened and was unexpected as I wasn't trying to rotate the board / kick my back foot forward.

One thing I do notice here is that I look to be more heavily weighted on the rear foot than I expected. As I mentioned after this first day on the BP, my back leg and the glute on that side were quite sore. I feel like I must have been fighting the tendency of the board to rotate on me, and I'm guessing that rearward bias was how I compensated. This is with the 56 cm axle spacing and less distance between the bindings and the axles. I don't have any such soreness today (after riding yesterday), so again I think the 59 cm axle spacing was a small step in the right direction. Anyway if nothing else, I hope this at least gives you a general sense of my ability. 

 

[dgCarve]

Looks like you put your hips in "minus" position on heel side. Your knees are too close to each other too.

I have seen some amazing riders who do almost minus position on heel side, but they put their upper body in minus position too.

Edited March 2, 2020 by dgCarve

[dgCarve]

As well you said you like hard-charging fall line carving style. Try to minimize body rotation, preferably eliminate it. Look at Sigi, he is not rotating his body at all.

[KB303]

I'm wondering if the minus position was part of my compensation. Earlier when I mentioned lowering the angle of the rear binding, that thought was based on the feeling this setup gave me that my right hip was rotating forward. I felt like keeping it back would help prevent this unexpected rotation. 

It's also interesting that you mention my knees. I have been more aware of how close they are after getting on this plate. I don't know the reason for that as it does feel unlike how I normally ride. I wish I had video of me riding on the Gecko or on a direct mount to compare. 

[dgCarve]

Maybe because plate is soft (4mm lite) and it just bents too much. I use BP plate too, but only in very bad bumpy conditions. I use 5mm, so it does not bend and I do not have that issue. In conditions you ride in the video, I prefer to use my Vist plates.

[KB303]

2 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

Try to minimize body rotation, preferably eliminate it.

Definitely. Working on that and was surprised to seem some here. But again this was a pretty relaxed run, so I'm expecting a number of differences here from how I normally ride. I appreciate your feedback! 

[KB303]

2 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

Maybe because plate is soft (4mm lite) and it just bents too much.

That makes sense regarding the knees. I was also thinking torsionally it might not be stiff enough as well - not as a factor regarding the knees, but wondering about its overall fitness for how I'm riding.  

[lowrider]

A plate allows a board to perform better than it can without a plate. Best illustrated in less than ideal conditions. Maximum axel spacing is ideal relative to the stiffness of plate and weight of the rider. On ideal groom a plate isolates inputs one uses to observe and react to helpful feedback especially when developing ones own particular style. It may be helpful at this time to ditch the plate and re-establish your personal base line with particular attention to your body position . My observation is that you are very upright ( I ride similar to your video but i'm old and more broken at least that's my excuse.)  Back on you bare board I would pay attention to the degree you peddle (Deny it if you want but we all do it) .When we ride a plate and peddle the results are not as evident as when the board is without the plate. The pressure you are applying when riding the plate as you peddle may be part of the fatigue your muscles exhibit. Don't know if you have the chance to ride in real choppy conditions and ice but it is under those conditions that the benefit of a plate really shines. When you ride in icy conditions self preservation kicks in and your brain tells you to get as low as possible and pay particular attention to for aft balance. Once you gain the confidence to do this you can see the real benefit of a plate. It also highlights that peddling is pointless under these conditions and that riding a clean edge is essential to confidently carve ice. 

[KB303]

Hi @lowrider  thanks for your comments. Yes, I’m definitely riding more upright here as I wasn’t riding at my normal speed and aggressiveness. I hope the video isn’t misleading as it’s not that representative of how I normally ride, and I was also riding with a lot of compensation for what I felt the board was doing awkwardly and unexpectedly. 
 

I rode in choppy conditions this weekend and really see the benefit. I’d like to dial in the setup so I don’t feel like I’m fighting it. 

[lowrider]

1 hour ago, KB303 said:

 

I’d like to dial in the setup so I don’t feel like I’m fighting it. 

You've made a change in you set-up give it some time.

[Kneel]

FWIW, I have the BP 4mm LIte (4x4) on a Full Carve 170.  With the axles centered on the deck(front floating) I experienced the rear squirting out heelside at times, albeit on less than ideal bulletproof conditions.  Moved the axles to the outsides and that all went away.  Bindings were F2's which have a much larger oblong footprint than the circular BP disks so there's that difference, but it seemed to translate to a LOT more freedom for the board without what felt like my rear foot "teetering" over the rear axle... 

[dgCarve]

I wonder if issues you experienced related to 4mm Lite plate.

I use 5mm plate. I have 52cm stance and BP axels set to 59 cm. I do not experience any issues. Actually I was surprised that I adopted to fully isolation plate very fast without any issues, except one. The issue I had was related to position of the BP. I moved my BP forward a bit to put bindings in the same position were they been without plate. This was bad decision - the board behaved really weird. Now my BP is centered, therefore resulted position of the bindings related to board is a bit closer to the tail than before. No issues with agility of the board - very quick and predictable transitions.

[KB303]

17 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

I wonder if issues you experienced related to 4mm Lite plate.

Since you pointed out how my knees were too close together and the softness of the plate could be the culprit there, I’ve been wondering that, too. With that collapsed knee position, it makes sense that this could open up several other problems with the fundamentals. I’m tempted to try the 5 mm, but that’s probably a bridge too far since I’m not actually doing any racing. I’m also pretty maxed out on how much weight I’m willing to have pulling on my boot when I’m on the lift, and I think the 5 mm would be too much.

This exploration with the Gecko and the BP has been positive overall, particularly with the Gecko as it opened my eyes to some changes in my riding I was trying to make. Also since I rode best with that setup, maybe that’s as far as I need to go with the plate options. 

[Corey]

I have ridden all versions of the BP plate: 5mm, 4mm, 4mm Lite.  I have not experienced any differences related to this.  

I bought the 4mm Lite as I prefer the ability to control/warp the board when compared to the others.  

[Rob Stevens]

I just scrolled until I saw the video. Feedback isn’t much good without it... especially if you link your issues with your equipment, and your equipment is complicated. 

Starting off, this is good terrain for you. Any steeper or faster and you wouldn’t be able to focus on improving... you’d just be surviving. 

While you might leave the plate on, you could really stand to ditch it. I’m not sure if you’d really be seeing any benefit from it. If you do take it off, set up your bindings at reference stance, with offset balanced.

Let’s not worry about your knees, as your issue is coming pretty much entirely from the counter rotating move you make as you transition from toes to heels. You do it on your heels to toes too, but you feel the skid on your heels likely because you cant adjust your edge with the ankles on the heel turn, so you lose that ability to fine tune out the skid.

As you exit the toe turn, you’re looking for rotational alignment. That is where in the moment you go from the last of the toe edge, to flat, to picking up the heel edge, your shoulders and hips must be aligned with your average stance angle. As you begin to raise the edge, you must feel a solid connection with the snow under both feet, balanced over both feet. To guide yourself, look out of the fall line and across the run as you’re changing edges. You can do that whole turn in total alignment and I bet you’ll skid less, then totally eliminate the skid.

In this video, you continue to look downhill as you change edges. It’s making it so that your upper body is more aligned with the fall line than it is with your board and where you are going. To get onto your heels, you’re having to “unwind” your torso which imparts a rotational force into your board. As you don’t have any edge angle to resist that, the board skids. In other words, you’re twisting your body one way when the board and you want to go the other way,

[SunSurfer]

It may be as far as you need to go for now.

The Boiler plate, and plates of the same design principle, are particularly helpful in reducing quads muscle fatigue especially after the fresh morning groom is all chopped up by skidding skiers and boarders. Don't get rid of it yet.

Many riders in the early stages of acquiring carving skills, and I count my self as having been amongst them, try to compensate for that lack of skill by buying and trying different boards, plates, boots and bindings. As your skills develop all your equipment will perform better. Fastest way to build your skills is to ride with better riders and get well informed feedback. Clinics at SES, in particular Richard Ks sessions, made for big improvements in my skills.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by SunSurfer

[KB303]

Thanks, @Rob Stevens. You picked up on two of my habits from skiing: Counter-rotating and looking down the fall line. I thought I eliminated this (Lowell Hart pointed this out when I had a lesson with him years ago), but apparently it's still there. And as you mentioned, I have found from my experience that looking across the hill rather than down the fall line eliminates my heel side chatter. Need to be more consistent with that. 32-year habits (from skiing) die hard, I guess. Really appreciate the feedback and the direction for what I should be shooting for. 

@SunSurfer, you pretty well described this season for me. After an 11-year hiatus, I'm considering it a rebuilding year both in terms of my equipment and my technique. Been trying a bunch of different gear, and I think I'm honing in on what's most beneficial for me. Based on the feedback I've received in response to this thread, I also think after my breakthrough days on the Gecko, I should have taken what I learned there and applied it to a direct mount setup rather than trying it on the BP. I'll keep the BP as you recommend, but focus more on these skills with no plate. 

This year I had a primary goal: As I've been a fall line rider, I wanted to complete my turns a bit more so I could carve more consistently on the blues and control my speed. I still want to ride in a fairly narrow corridor, but previously I would build too much speed on the blues. With the Gecko on the SG and the VIRUS, I was able to achieve this goal. I thought the free flex under the BP would make these full turns even easier, but I probably jumped the gun on that. I will work more on these skills with a direct mount. I'm also looking forward to meeting and riding with the people in this community. As I mentioned previously, I know I did myself a great disservice by not connecting with you all when I was riding before. Your feedback will be invaluable, I'm sure. 

Thanks, all. 

Keith 

 

[dgCarve]

11 minutes ago, KB303 said:

You picked up on two of my habits from skiing: Counter-rotating and looking down the fall line.

 

Looking down the fall like is ok and actually required for some styles. Look at this races. Racers look dow the fall like, but body is aligned to the board in the same way regardless of toe or heel edge. I love how Loginov rides. Very aggressive.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by dgCarve

[dgCarve]

31 minutes ago, KB303 said:

As I've been a fall line rider, I wanted to complete my turns a bit more so I could carve more consistently on the blues and control my speed. 

You can carve fall line and control the speed. It is the same as in ski carving. Lots of pressure on the board right from the start of the carve. Your board should do much bigger arc than your body. Always stay on the side of the board, never on top of it. I control the speed when doing fall line carving by doing fast quick turns. As soon as you entered the turn, already prepare for the next one. Do not try to slow down by waiting longer and going perpendicular the fall line.  You will just pick up more speed and entry in your next turn will be too late, will result in counter rotation. You slow down by doing aggressive turns often.

P.S. Looks like you like fall line carving, therefore I shared my experience as I prefer it too. For other carving styles obviously advice would be different.

P.S2. Think about applying pressure before apex, not after -  that what usually happens in "free carving" styles.

Edited March 3, 2020 by dgCarve

[KB303]

11 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

Looking down the fall like is ok and actually required for some styles.

Gotcha. Perhaps that’s something for me to work back to, then, once I’m more consistent with my heel sides and stop counter-rotating. 

[dgCarve]

Another important thing, learn to jump from one turn into another. Learn to jump forward not high. This will allow you to put the board at very high angle right from the start of the carve, and apply lots of pressure.