Mr.E Posted February 1, 2020 Report Share Posted February 1, 2020 Spring follow up- the move from Red (metric) to Blue (imperial) was pretty big. It felt flexy, but I rode ok. I'm going to split the difference with the Red (imperial) and see how that works for me. So if you buy them, maybe try to get some bookend springs and mess around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 1, 2020 Report Share Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, bigwavedave said: After 25+ years of hardbooting, I think I'm finally getting my stance dialed in! Thank you!! That's too funny; there is hope for me yet... What else am I going to blame on if not for the boots lol... "Using the Zipfit shell heating method combined with the hot-rice-sock method to mold Intuition wraps to my UPZ's convinced me that molding the liner to both your feet and the shell helped everything become as one...and only then did I become one with the carve. Never realized that I had movement between my liner and shell, until I didn't anymore, and found I had had a new level of control." That's exactly what I was thinking today!! Get a cooler; dump bunch boil water in there and throw the boots(wrap in plastic) in there. Liner -- rice(safer) or oven Ideas sounded good in me head but so glad to hear result are "nirvana-ish". I am going to screw it up some how lol.... If something is supposedly idiot proof; it have yet to meet me.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 2, 2020 Report Share Posted February 2, 2020 DIY. Preheat oven to 225°F for about 15 minutes then turn it off and put a liner in. Cook for 15 minutes, then quickly put it on, get it just right, and allow to cool for At least 15 minutes standing up. Put a phone book or something under your toe while standing. This is basically the same method as on yyzcanuck.com. BigWaveDave proved out what I always suspected about the rice method. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) Jack, I have to disagree. Data sheets for all the EVA foam products I've been able to track down recommend temps stay below 70-80 Centigrade. 225F =107C, too hot and will cause rapid collapse of the cells within the foam. I have ruined a Deeluxe liner in the past by using too hot a temperature. Agree that best molding shapes both the outside and inside of the liner. To achieve this the liner needs to heat through and 15 minutes in a domestic oven is certainly long enough to achieve this. The goal should be a steady oven temperature of around 60 - 70 Centigrade and check it with a thermometer. Liners are expensive enough to justify the small investment needed to buy a suitable thermometer from a cooking store. I have successfully shaped Intuition liners, inside and out, for my UPZs using this technique and temperature. Edited February 3, 2020 by SunSurfer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, SunSurfer said: 60 - 70 Centigrade Yup 140-160 F has always worked for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 I've probably done at least 25 moldings this way. I’ve had several sets of liners that I molded multiple times. No issues.YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 More importantly, your oven may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 YYZ says 125°C. That’s 260°F. No need to go that high, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 In medicine we've moved on from anecdote and authority based medicine, to evidence based medicine. Let's look at the evidence. Intuition liners, and many others, are made of an Ultralon brand EVA foam.https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/intuition-linershttps://www.ultralonfoam.com/products/ski-snowboard Ultralon foam specification sheets. Note the line on Service temperature.http://www.prfloors.com/PDF/Ultralon spec explained.pdf The melting point of EVA copolymer is 75 degrees Chttps://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB0356004.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 Interesting discussion for sure. I tend to over think and result in analysis paralysis.... TGR: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/170547-Rice-Molding-Instructions-A-La-Intuition My trusted BBQ temperature should come in handy YYZ instruction: https://www.yyzcanuck.com/liner-molding-a-little-home-cookin/ Maybe liner manufacture doesn't use "pure" EVA; some sort of blend which increase melting point.? According to intuition: Heat Setting: switch to setting II for heating Intuition liners (ideal temperature 120°C/250°F) Reference: https://intuitionliners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IntuitionShopFit.pdf Here is me speculating; before I have to build a sauna like BWD lol When the oven door is open; some temperature is dropped. say 20 degree F? Room temperature liner doesn't raise from 70 degree F to 200 degree F instantly? As liner temp increase, oven temp decrease; hitting the magic temperature? Maybe vacuum seal the liner/boots and cook it with sous vide cooker lol.... idiot proof 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 How many liners molded makes it evidential and not anecdotal? When I said 25+, that was pairs. How many more do I have to go? What do I know. 225F and then turn the oven off has worked for me for years, in multiple ovens. If lower works for you then great. I tried lower and the liner didn't puff up like I like. In any case, the rice method is right out, unless re-molding liners that have already been fully molded to a specific boot. 3 minutes ago, pow4ever said: According to intuition: Heat Setting: switch to setting II for heating Intuition liners (ideal temperature 120°C/250°F) Reference: https://intuitionliners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IntuitionShopFit.pdf Well there you have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) You're more authority than anecdote. Liners have a limited number of times they can be re-shaped. One of the factors that will limit that is foam cell collapse. It's an expensive experiment to see what happens if you allow the liner to evenly heat right through to higher temperatures. https://www.metrofoam.com.au/documents/pe-eva-data.pdf (Ultralon Data Sheet) Page 2 excerpt- - "Ultralon foam has a fine cell structure. Each cell is a bubble of gas confined by the cell wall. Heating the material pressurizes that gas and this causes the gas to permeate through the cell walls. Therefore the sheet size decreases when cooled by the volume of gas that is lost.The foam may undergo expansion and contraction in transit if exposed to extremes of heat. Closed Cell Foam Shrinkage. Closed cell foams change in dimension when heated for a period of time. The degree of change and its permanence is dependant on the following factors : Temperature.Polyolefin foams subjected to temperatures up to 60 C (for E.V.A.) and 70 C (for P.E.) have negligible shrinkage. At higher temperatures the degree of change becomes unpredictable." My aim is not to win an argument. Everyone who home molds their liners benefits from the most accurate information about how and why to do it. The discussion has produced links to a range of information sources. That's a good outcome. Edited February 4, 2020 by SunSurfer add link 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 Sorry for the detour. Back to topic: with .951 boots with the current generation liner: Non ROXA one. How does one adjust the spring forward lean mechanism? When putting on the boots: Do you push down the tongue and buckle from the lowest to up(crush the foot first)? then pull up the liner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 To adjust forward lean you need a hex. Don't remember the size, but you just insert the hex from the top side into the spring mechanism and rotate to achieve a desired position 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 so how do you center the boots(951) on the binding(SG performance)? Center mark of the boots to the center of the binding? I typically just center the sled(equal distance/turn from the edge) personal preferences/bio mechanical difference.... where is the easy button lol. make one change at a time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 hi pow4ever, mountain slope recommends using the line on the boot for centring on the binding see this article: https://www.mountain-slope.com/schuh-und-bindungseinstellung/ However, when I was on the SG Carve camp i had a discussion with Sigi about centering the boots on the binding and he said something that blew my mind. He said that with all the boots that have heel under heel design (Northwave, Mountain Slope, UPZ) he moves the whole front binding 1 cm to the toeside edge. I tried doing something similar but only with the moving the bails on f2 bindings and the results so far have been very good. Regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, slapos said: He said that with all the boots that have heel under heel design (Northwave, Mountain Slope, UPZ) he moves the whole front binding 1 cm to the toeside edge. @slapos What was his reasoning? How did the shift benefit his technique of riding? Only then can anyone judge whether the reason(s) applies to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) he said that the mark on the boot is nowhere where he would like it to be. That the center of the actual foot is is further then the center line on his original northwave boot my advice to all 951/UPZ users is to try and see for themselves. Edited February 5, 2020 by slapos 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamifumi Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 19 hours ago, pow4ever said: How does one adjust the spring forward lean mechanism? I carry L-shaped hex key (size 4, same as SG binding) and you just turn counter-clockwise to make it forward lean and clock-wise to backward lean. 19 hours ago, pow4ever said: When putting on the boots: Do you push down the tongue and buckle from the lowest to up(crush the foot first)? then pull up the liner? I like to do from lowest to up. I do lowest first while pulling up the kinder without doing it too much then pull up more while toghtening the rest. I recommend getting loner that has higher length than boot cuff. I have intuition liner red pro tongue and it is same height as boot cuff and causes pressure point (I cut 1/3 of the tongue towards the boot cuff to relieve the pressure). I am getting new liner soon and see how that works out. 5 hours ago, slapos said: He said that with all the boots that have heel under heel design (Northwave, Mountain Slope, UPZ) he moves the whole front binding 1 cm to the toeside edge. I tried doing something similar but only with the moving the bails on f2 bindings and the results so far have been very good. Could you clarify on this? I understood it as “you moved the center marking of the .951 boots 1cm forward of the center of binding by adjusting on the toe and heel bail”...... is that correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 Sigi moves the whole binding. I only moved the bails to achieve something similar. All in all it means more roll over I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 Thank you Slapos and yamifumi! Are there instruction for the boots? What does dot on the cant disk meant? Feel like more of an idiot than normal... For spring/forward lean: the big nut is to adjust the spring preload. Use the hex on top of the rod for forward lean. Man that is slick.... yamifumi: How do you center your 951 on SG binding currently? if center by bail/sled: Both Front/back foot: the boot center mark point is about 1cm behind binding center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 With F2's (or pretty much any bining Ive used) I start with getting the binding on the board, then get the boots centered relative to the edges. Secure the heel bail to hold that position, then move the toe bail in until I get the clamping tention I want. I'm not particually concerned with the center marking, per se, if the boot and my boot are where I want them over the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 10 hours ago, slapos said: he said that the mark on the boot is nowhere where he would like it to be. That the center of the actual foot is is further then the center line on his original northwave boot my advice to all 951/UPZ users is to try and see for themselves. So does he move the rear binding to account for that offset boot marking as well? That would seem logical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwavedave Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 13 hours ago, slapos said: However, when I was on the SG Carve camp i had a discussion with Sigi about centering the boots on the binding and he said something that blew my mind. He said that with all the boots that have heel under heel design (Northwave, Mountain Slope, UPZ) he moves the whole front binding 1 cm to the toeside edge. I tried doing something similar but only with the moving the bails on f2 bindings and the results so far have been very good. Regards This is interesting. I usually position my boots so the heel & toe are equidistant from the edge of the board, regardless of where the centerline on the boot is. Seemed to work okay with the UPZ's. Since switching to the MS I have noticed that my heelside turns are a bit stronger than toesides. Maybe some more tweaking is in order? I like these boots, but they are different enough from the UPZ's that I found I had to do a bit of tweaking (increase rear heel lift, no cant). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapos Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 If you are using the center line in 951 to center on the bindings it will look like the front and rear bail are moved toward the toeside @SunSurfer he doesn't move the back binding only the front one I had to spend time on 951 to get them where k wanted them to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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