pauleleven Posted March 6, 2018 Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 25 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said: What do you see as the fundamental differences? Visually, they’re very close. It's basically the japanese taking the BX shapes and making a funcarve board. None of them will do well in a BX competition because the base and materials aren't quite on par with the award winning ones, they understand what makes a board carve well, but speed oriented BX races not so much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted March 6, 2018 Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said: What’s the width of this? https://shop.virus-snowsports.com/freeride-snowboards/ Das Revolution verfügt im Vergleich zum Avalanche AFT über noch bessere Tiefschnee Eigenschaften. Länge: 170cm, 162cm effektive Kante: 132 cm, 124cm mittlere Breite: 26.2cm, 25.5cm Shred Gruumer: 162 MIttlere Breite 22.0cm Edited March 6, 2018 by Shred Gruumer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 howdy again not grey, but this I like... I want one of these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 howdy here's a tiny skinny girl ripping it up... on a DESPERADO 2 Ti typeR... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 50 minutes ago, west carven said: howdy again not grey, but this I like... I want one of these. A Aaron,, translate this next time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 howdy just look at the numbers and try to figure it out... bc stream 18/19 catalog... http://cdn.flipsnack.com/widget/v2/widget.html?hash=ft9exq4y9&bgcolor=EEEEEE&t=1519735101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Kight Posted March 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 53 minutes ago, west carven said: howdy here's a tiny skinny girl ripping it up... on a DESPERADO 2 Ti typeR... That...was...awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 14 hours ago, Randy Kight said: kinny girl ripping it up... on a DESPERADO 2 Ti typeR... Looks like she switches to a Moss PQ60 at 3:20 or so !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, barryj said: Looks like she switches to a Moss PQ60 at 3:20 or so !! Given her size, I'd say more like a PQ49 or 54. Edited March 7, 2018 by Mig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, Mig said: Given her size, I'd say more like a PQ49 or 54. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlito Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 23 hours ago, daveo said: Not even close... 21 hours ago, pauleleven said: It's basically the japanese taking the BX shapes and making a funcarve board. None of them will do well in a BX competition because the base and materials aren't quite on par with the award winning ones, they understand what makes a board carve well, but speed oriented BX races not so much. Touche. Wasn't trying to claim that these desperado type boards ARE BX boards. ha ha. Trying to highlight the fact that if you were going to reinvent carving with softboots (as a sort of "thought experiment") BX boards would be a tempting starting point. They have long effective edges, carve well, deal with speed effectively and are aimed at being used with softboots. If you look at the desperado, this is basically what they have done. Taken a generic BX boardshape, tweaked the stiffness, construction, and materials, to provide a funcarving (like the term!) board. And Voila! There are problems.... For big footed gorillas the boards are still too skinny. Those highly effecient shapes (high EE to overall length ratio) lead to all kinds of mayhem freeriding in Rob's Lake Louise context: The short noses submarine if not watched in soft snow of any depth, the tails (wide and corner-ey) catch on bumps/terrain irregularities, the short wide corner-ey tip profiles hunt and hook in fluted/hollow/gullied/sidehill softsnow riding (why do you think all those powder-sticks coming out of japans deep snow/mad gully systems all have extended noses!). All this can be handled by skill and attention by a competent pilot, but compromises the experience... Give em some tip and tail, widen em up, a bit o' taper and you got something. Hey that Virus thing looks familiar. Fullbags Diamond Blade is pretty sweet. Endeavor hammerhead thingy is sweet. There are boards out there lurking in the corners of the design envelope, they just seem a little narrow for the big guys to deal with the high angle carving component with (even moderately) duck footed stances. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 hours ago, carlito said: The short noses submarine if not watched in soft snow of any depth, the tails (wide and corner-ey) catch on bumps/terrain irregularities, the short wide corner-ey tip profiles hunt and hook in fluted/hollow/gullied/sidehill softsnow riding Agree. My Flux has these attributes which detract a little from it's all mountain ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 hours ago, carlito said: Touche. Wasn't trying to claim that these desperado type boards ARE BX boards. ha ha. Trying to highlight the fact that if you were going to reinvent carving with softboots (as a sort of "thought experiment") BX boards would be a tempting starting point. They have long effective edges, carve well, deal with speed effectively and are aimed at being used with softboots. If you look at the desperado, this is basically what they have done. Taken a generic BX boardshape, tweaked the stiffness, construction, and materials, to provide a funcarving (like the term!) board. And Voila! There are problems.... For big footed gorillas the boards are still too skinny. Those highly effecient shapes (high EE to overall length ratio) lead to all kinds of mayhem freeriding in Rob's Lake Louise context: The short noses submarine if not watched in soft snow of any depth, the tails (wide and corner-ey) catch on bumps/terrain irregularities, the short wide corner-ey tip profiles hunt and hook in fluted/hollow/gullied/sidehill softsnow riding (why do you think all those powder-sticks coming out of japans deep snow/mad gully systems all have extended noses!). All this can be handled by skill and attention by a competent pilot, but compromises the experience... Give em some tip and tail, widen em up, a bit o' taper and you got something. Hey that Virus thing looks familiar. Fullbags Diamond Blade is pretty sweet. Endeavor hammerhead thingy is sweet. There are boards out there lurking in the corners of the design envelope, they just seem a little narrow for the big guys to deal with the high angle carving component with (even moderately) duck footed stances. They're dedicated carving machines meant for forward stance. Softboot equivalent of say an SG Full Carve. Not meant to be powder or freeride boards. Gray make that also, if you're interested in a Gray Snowboardo ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 8 hours ago, carlito said: Touche. Wasn't trying to claim that these desperado type boards ARE BX boards. ha ha. Trying to highlight the fact that if you were going to reinvent carving with softboots (as a sort of "thought experiment") BX boards would be a tempting starting point. They have long effective edges, carve well, deal with speed effectively and are aimed at being used with softboots. If you look at the desperado, this is basically what they have done. Taken a generic BX boardshape, tweaked the stiffness, construction, and materials, to provide a funcarving (like the term!) board. And Voila! There are problems.... For big footed gorillas the boards are still too skinny. Those highly effecient shapes (high EE to overall length ratio) lead to all kinds of mayhem freeriding in Rob's Lake Louise context: The short noses submarine if not watched in soft snow of any depth, the tails (wide and corner-ey) catch on bumps/terrain irregularities, the short wide corner-ey tip profiles hunt and hook in fluted/hollow/gullied/sidehill softsnow riding (why do you think all those powder-sticks coming out of japans deep snow/mad gully systems all have extended noses!). All this can be handled by skill and attention by a competent pilot, but compromises the experience... Give em some tip and tail, widen em up, a bit o' taper and you got something. Hey that Virus thing looks familiar. Fullbags Diamond Blade is pretty sweet. Endeavor hammerhead thingy is sweet. There are boards out there lurking in the corners of the design envelope, they just seem a little narrow for the big guys to deal with the high angle carving component with (even moderately) duck footed stances. BX shapes are very much a thing in Asia, these softer boards like Gray and BC are created for people to learn alpine/forward carving. As of right now in China, after someone gets a few days on the snowboard they either choose BX shapes or park boards, it's that big. However, out of every 10 people riding a BX type, only 1 carves decent. The top riders can actually do amazing stuff with superstiff actual SBX boards like Kessler or SG, but then you also have stupid rich beginners getting a custom order Oxess when they don't even understand how to do the edge. Once the intuition sets in for the edge to edge, the power and ability to ride stiff boards come very very fast. I'm in a conundrum, either finding one of these super stiff boards to do the full work out, or just upgrade to hardboot hmmm..... choices 3 hours ago, daveo said: They're dedicated carving machines meant for forward stance. Softboot equivalent of say an SG Full Carve. Not meant to be powder or freeride boards. Gray make that also, if you're interested in a Gray Snowboardo ;) sadly I think Gray sells too many boards outside of Japan, I think for 17-18 they added carbon, mach and something else to the lineup, before it was just desperado, ti and TR. why buy one board for all conditions, when you can have six boards from us for every condition? taking that damn Riedel approach that broke the fine crystal industry. Gray to me is just way too hyped, great boards but too hyped..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 hour ago, pauleleven said: Gray to me is just way too hyped, great boards but too hyped..... GRAY GRAY GRAY IS THE BEST ... sorry. just aboard that ol' hype train In saying that, I did like the TR. Not sure if it's worth the billion dollars that they charge. I'll get a Desperado on sale for my gf for next year :) 1 hour ago, pauleleven said: but then you also have stupid rich beginners getting a custom order Oxess when they don't even understand how to do the edge. A this is the China I know too well... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piusthedrcarve Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, carlito said: Touche. Wasn't trying to claim that these desperado type boards ARE BX boards. ha ha. Trying to highlight the fact that if you were going to reinvent carving with softboots (as a sort of "thought experiment") BX boards would be a tempting starting point. They have long effective edges, carve well, deal with speed effectively and are aimed at being used with softboots. If you look at the desperado, this is basically what they have done. Taken a generic BX boardshape, tweaked the stiffness, construction, and materials, to provide a funcarving (like the term!) board. And Voila! There are problems.... For big footed gorillas the boards are still too skinny. Those highly effecient shapes (high EE to overall length ratio) lead to all kinds of mayhem freeriding in Rob's Lake Louise context: The short noses submarine if not watched in soft snow of any depth, the tails (wide and corner-ey) catch on bumps/terrain irregularities, the short wide corner-ey tip profiles hunt and hook in fluted/hollow/gullied/sidehill softsnow riding (why do you think all those powder-sticks coming out of japans deep snow/mad gully systems all have extended noses!). All this can be handled by skill and attention by a competent pilot, but compromises the experience... Give em some tip and tail, widen em up, a bit o' taper and you got something. Hey that Virus thing looks familiar. Fullbags Diamond Blade is pretty sweet. Endeavor hammerhead thingy is sweet. There are boards out there lurking in the corners of the design envelope, they just seem a little narrow for the big guys to deal with the high angle carving component with (even moderately) duck footed stances. I disagree. BX boards has much larger SCR(s) to go fast. Year after year, BX boards have been designed specifically to its race courses (few turns here and there but with more rollers). Now some well known Worldcup BX boards are built with 15 -17m SCR. As a alpine rider, I know how to bend it but a lot more effort are needed. Generally speaking, if a snowboarder want to carve like hardbooters with a softboot snowboard, he/she will be better off with a board with different dimension and construction of current BX boards. And I am finding very promising designs from above discussed Asian softboot specific carving boards. I can't speak for all hardbooters but, at least for me, I am searching for a softboot carving board because I want to ride with kids and have fun with them, like doing ground tricks, jumps, and etc. but also carve well too, according to our 'carving' standard. Some (at least we know one) are just too lazy to pack multiple boards for a once-a-year trip so looking for one that carves well. :) But I bet majority who wants to carve like hardbooters on softboot snowboards would be coming off from mass-market rocker snowboards or magna-crap camber boards with grom size effective edge length that has promoted skids rather than turns. Those Asian carving specific softboot boards' hammerhead decambered nose, long effective edge length, similar but progressive SCRs, familiar flex, and new construction (probably necessary to compensate the "normalization") have led them to learn and carve properly, as we seen them on YouTube. Now the Asian board companies even offer various models for rider's level or type of ridings (i.e. BC Stream's RX, R2, H). It all evolve with demands. Few years ago, North America snowboard brands took a chance with backcountry riding, A lot of POW specific boards (swallowtail, split, etc.) came out and added to their model line up. But I think ROI of those models must have been pretty bad. I see this carving trend is more favorable. If they see this as an opportunity, they need to step up, instead of promoting 'already-existed', 'misleading', 'hype-driven' technologies. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 2 hours ago, piusthedrcarve said: If they see this as an opportunity, they need to step up, instead of promoting 'already-existed', 'misleading', 'hype-driven' technologies. I doubt that it would happen in the US tho, these japanese boards and technique(especially) don't work all that well in powder or skier mogels, I had quite some problem with the alps covered in mogels trying to carve. The boards that can handle these conditions well won't be able to hold an aggressive edge, maybe something in the 800 USD+ range but that's beyond your average price range of a snowboarder also what is it with hating on forward stance in the US??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, piusthedrcarve said: I see this carving trend is more favorable. If they see this as an opportunity, they need to step up, instead of promoting 'already-existed', 'misleading', 'hype-driven' technologies. Is softboot carving a thing in the US? As in, are people (apart from Shred) actually buying dedicated softboot carving boards and then competenly carving on them? I only ride in Asia and it's huge here... Edited March 8, 2018 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piusthedrcarve Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, daveo said: Is softboot carving a thing in the US? As in, are people (apart from Shred) actually buying dedicated softboot carving boards and then competenly carving on them? I only ride in Asia and it's huge here... It has been. More and more, we see softbooters carve on the hills and more people has asked me how to carve than before. Some youtube videos of pro-riders carve in half pipe were shared thru social media channels. To me, it seems carving is shown as a technique on already possessed gears that they have on. That's why we see a lot of toilet-sitting heelside turns. I think current available bindings play big role there, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 32 minutes ago, daveo said: Is softboot carving a thing in the US? As in, are people (apart from Shred) actually buying dedicated softboot carving boards and then competenly carving on them? I only ride in Asia and it's huge here... Softboot carving is a bit of a thing here, but it is mixed with freeriding and the board choice reflects that. It is much more about style than technique and a lot of cool looking toe sides are followed by a slashing heel side skid that is primarily intended to slow them down and throw a bunch of snow in the air. Almost no one in softboots is doing linked carves down a groomer. That is boring to the US softbooters who can lay a trench (toe side at least). Only a few riders are seeking out softboot carvers that are primarily for groomers. The only ones I ever see on the slopes are associated with the hardboot community in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 You guys are going way too esoteric about this... Carving is mostly the technique. Any board that has sidecut and flex matched to rider's weight and intended speed will carve ok... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, piusthedrcarve said: we see softbooters carve on the hills and more people has asked me how to carve than before. I do too! which is a good thing...except when they actually think they are doing the same turn as Im doing on my hardboots...but hey they are trying! and I like it! I have lifties at my local hill wanting to go the carving route (softboot).. They look at my BX boards and what can be done on the hill they actually gravitate to it.. funny though cause when I ask why they say.."cause it looks so cool, looks like fun" I guess the park is not fun? haha.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piusthedrcarve Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, BlueB said: You guys are going way too esoteric about this... Carving is mostly the technique. Any board that has sidecut and flex matched to rider's weight and intended speed will carve ok... So true. but the technique can only do so much if they have wrong tools for a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, piusthedrcarve said: we see a lot of toilet-sitting heelside turns. I think current available bindings play big role there, Yes.. Carve specific bindings please! better angles.. I too do the toilet seat turn initiation first move on heel side (its an angle thing)... But all is not lost as my new pick up in boots should make a huge difference.. I will know is two days what will be the next step.. at some point I don't want to go to far to lose the softie benefits...too far means..."WTF I might as well wear my hard boots now that Im on a 40/50 angles..and just ride the board with plates"... I want to be able to just carve enough then go hit the soft snow and bumps...and not have to bring two sets of everything when I take a trip.. I think the opposite is possible too.. I have a more soft snow, powder specific hard boot snowboard coming in the mail today (virus revolution 22cm wide)... gee that will solve everything.. why am I doing this silly softboot carving again.....doh!! Because it feels different..in a good way... Edited March 8, 2018 by Shred Gruumer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, piusthedrcarve said: So true. but the technique can only do so much if they have wrong tools for a job. Yes, that's why I qualified about "matched". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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