Beginner question about boot flex

[cin]

Hi everyone,

A week ago I started a topic about groomed slopes and I learned a lot. Hoping to learn as much about boot flex!

So, some context. As some might have read in the groomed slopes topic, I only recently made the switch to hardboots, coming from riding softboots one or two weeks a year for about 13 years. I was able to get my hands on some second hand hardboot gear; some boards and a set of hardboots.

The boots I have are Deeluxe Track-225 boots. I read online that they are some of the most flexible hardboots made by Deeluxe. They are apparently a little softer than Track-325's, and a LOT softer than Track-700's. Then, there's also the boots from UPZ, which have the RC-10/11 (11 is the new 10?) being the stiffer, and the RC-8 being the more flexible.

I keep reading online that most of the slalom racers use very stiff boots to have more feel/control. But if the stiff boots were always the way to go, then they wouldn't have to produce more flexible ones. Right?

Can you guys explain to me what the benifits are of a stiffer or more flexible boot?  Does it have to do with control/feel, does it have to do with the stiffness of the board they are on, or with the style of carving, or something completely different

[SunSurfer]

Look out for an answer from Beckmann, he has a professional interest in making boots work for people.

[Aracan]

Racing and recreational carving are quite different, in that racing is about finding the quickest way from point A to point B, while carving is arguably about making the biggest possible detour. So unless you are into racing, take all race-based insight with a grain of salt. That is one.

"Boot stiffness" is a difficult proposal in and of itself. Are we talking about the stiffness of the boot plastic? The tongue? The spring  system (if there is one)? Fore-aft or lateral? That is two.

Personally, I like a boot with a lot of flexibility fore-aft, meaning the softest (red) UPZ tongues and an aftermarket spring system with softer springs and more travel than the stock system. This is because I prefer a style of riding where I flex the rear boot a lot in toeside turns. But that may be just me.

[lonbordin]

Stiffness also relates to size. I'm really large so what I think is stiff will be different than someone small of stature.

All of this should come to no surprise to someone of your experience as softboots have degrees of stiffness and you find similar experiences. SB racers (boardercross for example) prefer stiff boots.

[Technick]

Me too, I like flexible boots... I have Deeluxe Free60 with BTS Springs. I want a large range of movement from my boots, almost upright to sitting on my rear boot...

[BKStrout]

Couldn't agree more with Aracan above.  Really it depends on what you want to get out of your riding.

Personally, I ride an all mountain board (Donek Incline 169) with F2 bindings and Deeluxe Track 325 boots.  

Those were very specific choices for me based on what I ride, how I do it, and an old ankle injury I deal with. 

I needed the boots to be a little stiff in lateral flex but medium fore-aft (to deal with the ankle injury), the bindings needed some give to make up for the lack of lateral flex in the boots, and the board itself needed to be able to handle moderate speed, yet still be nimble (so we stretched out the sidecut radius a little).  People may debate my equipment choices, but for me the whole package works perfect.

Find out what you really want to do with your riding, find out how each piece of equipment (boots, bindings, board) work to accomplish your goals and then customize a setup that suits you, specifically.

[queequeg]

I think a better way to think about this is in terms of supportiveness. A more supportive boot will tend to make your setup feel a lot more responsive and precise which can be a double-edged sword — more immediate response from your inputs, and less room for error as well. Nobody actually wants their boots to feel stiff (in terms of impeding ones mobility), but everyone wants/needs varying degrees of support/responsiveness from their setup. A lot of this breaks down to personal preference. You could generalize and say that a taller rider (whose longer limbs produce greater leverage), or a rider who either weighs more or rides faster (who produces greater moment of inertia in the apex of the turn) might want more support ... but that isn't always the case. AlexJ (rarely seen on these forums) rides with the momentum of a freight train but IIRC prefers fairly soft boots. It also depends upon style. The pureboarding guys rip super hard and like really soft boots IIRC. Starting out: I think you are wise to begin with a fairly soft setup. There are also a lot of riders who like fairly firm setups that provide lots of support and create a more responsive feel, but I don't think that is the way to start out. 

[noschoolrider]

11 hours ago, Aracan said:

"Boot stiffness" is a difficult proposal in and of itself. Are we talking about the stiffness of the boot plastic? The tongue? The spring  system (if there is one)? Fore-aft or lateral?

Personally, I like a boot with a lot of flexibility fore-aft, meaning the softest (red) UPZ tongues and an aftermarket spring system with softer springs and more travel than the stock system. This is because I prefer a style of riding where I flex the rear boot a lot in toeside turns.

Good comments Aracan!

It's also important to consider the relationship of stiffness and range-of-motion (fore/aft and lateral movements).

The taller/heavier/stronger a person is the more leverage/pressure they will put on the boots.  If the boots are not designed to allow for enough range-of-motion then even very stiff boots can deform under load, which can negatively effect the boots ability to support the foot in the boot.

Ideally, you want boots that are stiff enough to provide satisfactory support for your body size/strength, and also provide sufficient range-of-motion (without distorting the boot) for the types of snowboarding you want to do and for the conditions you will be doing them in.  This is why it's best to have boots that allow you to adjust/change the stiffness and the range-of-motion.

Some of the best new snowboard hard boots are from Mountain Slope (clones of the famous Northwave boots https://mountain-slope.com ), UPZ ( http://upzboots.com ) and Deeluxe (in my opinion, the Deeluxe boots need to be fitted with the Bomber BTS Kit).

Edited January 8, 2018 by noschoolrider

[cin]

Wow....

When I was taking a few slalom trainings, all they could tell me was that some boots are stiff, and others are flexible. And basically told me that everyone should be wearing stiff boots. But reading all this feedback, it's not as black-and-white as they made it appear to be.

So, to sum up the comments here (and please correct me if I got it wrong!)...

- "Boot stiffness" is actually not as straight-forward as it sounds. Stiffness can be required and achieved on several aspects of the boot, such as the spring system, the amount of "give" when bending, the material of the boot and tongues, and so on.

- The "optimal" boot stiffness depends on the rider and their style.

Meaning that reaching "boot stiffness" nirvana will probably require a lot of trial and error, finding a style that suits the rider, and aiming for boots that help the rider getting the most out of that style.

 

Which also means that I am very, very far from knowing my optimal boot stiffness

Thanks so much for another bunch of lessons learned. I hope that after my first full week in the snow I will get an even better understanding of everything that is said here, so I can put these comments to good use!

[Aracan]

13 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

Some of the best new snowboard hard boots ....

Make that "The only new snowboard hardboots" as you listed all current manufacturers except the Koreans and the Japanese, which, to the best of my knowledge, are really, really not available in the West.

cin, I think you have it right, although I am anything but an expert on boots. Personally, I have progressed from very stiff boots to much softer ones. It is no coincidence that the new top-of-the-pops Mountainslope boots come in rather stiff and very stiff and their communication often cites race successes, while the EC guys (who have been deeply, madly in love with the Northwave .900 instead of the stiffer .950) are still waiting for "their" boot model from Northwave.

Also note that plastic stiffness (where the responsiveness/flexibility results from bending/deforming the boot under load) is harder to tweak than tongues and springs.

[Jonny]

Racing technique is really different from EC or even Ice-Coast riding and so it needs different gear. Most of us are totally obsessed with getting as much carve as possible and so we'll commit to the new edge when the board is perpendicular to the fall line or even earlier, which requires either thighs like tree trunks or a slightly softer boot which allows you to pull the board UNDER you without disturbing contact with the snow by matching the flex increase at hips, knees and ankles. It's gorgeous but it's relatively slow because we're sliding along  nearly half-circles. The pressure is coming on to the edge relatively gradually because the direction change at edge change is mild. Racers will jump and jam their boards to near the fall line or even past it before truly engaging the edge, which must then engage right away or they'll miss the next gate. This means that their boots have to be very stiff in forward flex and almost completely rigid backwards and sideways or the edge won't engage quickly enough - the flex in the boot will absorb the commitment to the edge. It's ugly but it's much faster because the path is so much shorter. They're truly carving for less than a quarter circle.

225s are a reasonable freeriding boot for most people - at 230lb I'd find them very soft but I ride 325s and AF600 (similar to Suzuka I think) pretty happily, even on long., stiff boards. If I were racing I'd probably be happiest in soft ski boots - something around 110-120 flex (by comparison - for ski racing I ski in boots around 160 and free-ski in 130s).

[philw]

I would add that you must actually consider the combination of boots and bindings in order to think about the way the system behaves.

For example... I used to have some boots which were stiff (Race ski boots), but I was using them in flexible bindings with a loose connexion, so they were fine. Later I had some more flexible boots in a flexible binding, which also worked, but felt different. Then I switched to Intec heels (a stiffer connection in my case), which affected the whole feel of the system. Finally, I tend to ride with my lower buckles undone (for better blood circulation in the cold) in back country powder, but on piste I want those things fastened for better response. 

Summary: it depends. You can't really add stiffness to a system, but you can soften things up by tweaking tongues or using softer springs etc. My advice would be to use what you have, and once you have the hang of that, try to work out if you want more or less stiffness from the system. Then move forward, changing one thing at once..
 

[Beckmann AG]

Cin,

For where you are on the development curve, you want the boot equivalent of a Rabbit Diesel. Something functional, but dull in response, so that errant inputs don't punish, frustrate, or confuse your process.

[cin]

So much info and so many opinions again. Awesome!

Well I got my hands on a pair of 2014 UPZ RC10 boots with only 5 days on them for a small price (only €160). So I should be able to feel the difference between them and the pair of 225's I already have once I hit the snow.

@philw, the combination of boot and binding flex makes sense. In the end, like others have alreay states, I guess it all comes down to the combination of rider, gear and style.

@Beckmann AG, in that case I will definitely be spending my first meters on the softer 225's!

 

EDIT: it feels a bit weird by the way. On the one hand, I feel like asking tons of questions and being the sponge absorbing it all. On the other hand I know that most of this comes down to feel, trial and error. So my plan is to ask questions until I can get the feels once I'm in the snow hehe.

Edited January 10, 2018 by cin

[Zone]

If you're relying on the tongue for stiffness (or softness), do keep in mind that the stiffness can vary greatly between 0C and -25C.

One way around it is to have a very soft tongue and adjust the stiffness with the springs.

[cin]

1 minute ago, Zone said:

If you're relying on the tongue for stiffness (or softness), do keep in mind that the stiffness can vary greatly between 0C and -25C.

I ride in Austria, temperatures rarely get to -10°. Usually it's between 0° and -5°.. so not sure what the effects (if any) would be on tongue stiffness.

[Corey]

Some people find the RC-10 to be terribly soft.  Others find it to be stiff like a cast.  So it can be considered 'medium', which is a good place to start.  Soft red tongues can soften that boot, or stiff grey/silver tongues can stiffen it.  

Don't feel bad asking questions.  Try a bit of everything and have fun!  

[Rusty Edges]

Even the softest hard boots get harder when it gets colder.  Just a material property of the plastic

[lonbordin]

54 minutes ago, cin said:

Well I got my hands on a pair of 2014 UPZ RC10 boots with only 5 days on them for a small price (only €160). So I should be able to feel the difference between them and the pair of 225's I already have once I hit the snow.

Just FYI there's a lot more than stiffness as a difference between those two boots.

Off the top of my head:

-Completely different fit/volume
-Different plastics
-Different stiffness over temperature range
-Different center of boot to toe and heel blocks (this impacts binding setups and will make it difficult to swap back and forth)
-Different ramp angle (again this affects binding setups and would make it difficult to swap back and forth)
-Liner differences
-etc, etc.

There are entire (very long) threads on this forum discussing these boots and their differences.

That said, fit is king and will likely drive your choice of which you prefer.  Boot stiffness can be adjusted.

My advice would be to pick the boots that fit best and follow this guide for setup.  Heck read the whole site... great stuff in there. Then just focus on the newbie drills.  After you can comfortably link a few carves revisit the boot difference.

Edited January 10, 2018 by lonbordin
In fact, read the site twice. :-)

[noschoolrider]

6 hours ago, philw said:

You can't really add stiffness to a system, but you can soften things up by tweaking tongues or using softer springs etc.

Mountain Slope .951 boots come standard with 100 flex tongues but they also offer 110 flex tongues (10% stiffer) and 120 flex tongues (20% stiffer), plus you can get stiffer springs.  UPZ boots come standard with 120 flex tongues but they also offer 140 flex tongues and 160 flex tongues, plus you can get stiffer forward flex springs (UPZ also offers 100 flex tongues).  You can get stiffer BTS springs to use with Deeluxe boots, and getting stiffer liners can make any boot feel stiffer.  Plus, adding shin supports/guards (like the Eliminator & Shintronic) and/or plastic sheets between the shell and liner can increase support/stiffness.  Note: The method of determining boot flex/stiffness is not standardized between boot manufacturers (one company’s 100 flex boot may not equal another company’s 100 flex boot), so you should only use the flex numbers as a starting point.

On 1/9/2018 at 12:20 AM, Aracan said:

Make that "The only new snowboard hardboots" as you listed all current manufacturers except the Koreans and the Japanese, which, to the best of my knowledge, are really, really not available in the West.

My girlfriend is Japanese and there are several Bomber Forum Members who live in Japan and South Korea (I have sold Kesslers to some of them).  So, if I had said "The only new snowboard hardboots" then there's a good chance someone would have said "what about Japanese and Korean manufactures".  However, as you said, it is difficult for people outside of Japan/Korea to get access to those boots.

[lonbordin]

52 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

You can get stiffer BTS springs to use with Deeluxe boots, and getting stiffer liners can make any boot feel stiffer.

The Deeluxe line also has different tongues available to change stiffness.  

[noschoolrider]

42 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

The Deeluxe line also has different tongues available to change stiffness.  

Yes, I forgot to mention the stiffer race tongues.

[arneburner]

How does board width effect apparent boot stiffness? I find that my boots (upc rc10) feel stiffer when riding a wide board (25) vs a narrow board (17.5 or 20).  Not sure if it is because you need more movement necessary to get the board on edge, the more relaxed angles or both. My guess would be both. Also the fore and aft movement is more across  the width of the board rather than diagonally forward  and backward on the narrow board. Appreciate your thoughts.

Edited January 11, 2018 by arneburner
Typo

[Chouinard]

11 hours ago, cin said:

On the other hand I know that most of this comes down to feel, trial and error

Be careful not to change more than one variable at a time. 

[philw]

Hmm, presumably you can buy the Japanese / Korean boots, with a bit of effort (by which I include visiting there). Has anyone  any views/ experience of them? I like the idea of new toys.