Beginner question about groomed slopes

[st_lupo]

Hey cin welcome to the best place for carving off of the snow!

I've only been at this for three years now so a lot of my first questions/uncertainties about the sport are still pretty fresh in my mind as well as what brought me my biggest initial payoffs... 

Your personality type sounds ideal for the sport and I think that you'll find BOL to be a rich source of information to get you started and to keep you advancing.  There are lots of fantastic people here who are incredibly helpful and I would expect for you to get tons of feedback when you ask for it, often it might seem like the fire-hose treatment.  Some will be very practical and easy to apply some may be more zen sounding and might take a year before you understand it.  I keep revisiting my old threads and find that with a accumulating experience comes a better understanding of what was being taught.

Some Kesslers do sound really scary, but I've got a friend that insists that there are some Kessler alpine boards that are absolutely wonderful to ride, even for the beginner (I think he was referring to the 168?).    I learned the basics on an F2 Silberpfeil which is a perfectly adequate board so I don't think those other F2s should be too bad. 

Yes and yes on Corey's video.  Along with learning the fundamentals (posture, balance, etc) you also have to learn to effectively apply those fundamentals to control your situation.  Learning the j-turn (and linking completed c-turns) is a critical application (if not the critical application) of the fundamentals that gives you the tool you need to control your speed and graduate up to the steeper slopes.  When I was completely new, this battle was typically won or lost in the first two turns.  Either I would stabilize at a controllable amount of speed early or my speed would start running away and each successive turn would become more difficult and consequently more shallow, leading to even more speed.  Beckmann described this to me as a momentum cascade which is an apt description. 

I think it is a good idea to start on groomers to get a feel for what you are shooting for.  Get out early and try to experiment and push your technique when the groom is still in good shape.  Then learn to apply what you've learned on the chop later in the day.  When you start linking those turns and really carving, I promise you are going to feel it. 

Also play it safe:

1)give yourself some margin for error; your velocity vector is going to be pointing off towards the trees a fair amount of time and you don't want to get booted off into them at mach speed.

2)keep an eye on the people that are both downhill and uphill.  (Probably especially the people that are uphill).

 

Beware of some rabbit holes on BOL.  There are lots of folks at really advanced levels here that are maximizing their carving and sometimes it is difficult to discriminate what is essential for the beginner and what is fine-tuning for that extra 10% performance.

Definitely read the tech articles! Tech articles Read them, go: huh?... .  Go riding.  Read them again go aha!

 

 

[Jack M]

Hi Wessel,

As others have said, it's important to be able to carve on less-than-ideal surfaces.  But when you're just starting out with learning how to really carve your edge, it's more important to eliminate fear and distraction from the process.  That means starting on easy groomed trails where you won't get going too fast and revert to survival mode.  Then you'll be able to really pay attention to how your board feels while carving, and how your inputs affect it.  Once you get up to speed then you can venture to other terrain.

There are some articles here to help you get started:

http://www.bomberonline.com/instruction-articles/

Good luck!

[billyt.]

How cold is it in Maine?  Crunchy snow!  They canceled the fireworks and parade at Mt Snow because of temps.  Trying to get up to ride this week.

[cin]

Guys,

Thanks for making a newbie feel so very welcome to these forums. As I said before, I'm taking all this in and can't wait to get going.

I've read through the first tech article and will definitely read through a few more before my week in the snow. My aim the first couple of days is to first gently carve frontside and heelside turns one by one. Then with a little more speed trying J turns one by one. Them maybe, just maybe try to link... but that all depends on the feels!

Definitely don't want to rush things, want to try doing things "right" rather than trying to improve too fast.

And definitely will be visiting these forums a lot before and during my holidays!!!

:D

[nitro]

Id recommend getting some body armour  

[b0ardski]

5 hours ago, cin said:

Guys,

Thanks for making a newbie feel so very welcome to these forums. As I said before, I'm taking all this in and can't wait to get going.

I've read through the first tech article and will definitely read through a few more before my week in the snow. My aim the first couple of days is to first gently carve frontside and heelside turns one by one. Then with a little more speed trying J turns one by one. Them maybe, just maybe try to link... but that all depends on the feels!

Definitely don't want to rush things, want to try doing things "right" rather than trying to improve too fast.

And definitely will be visiting these forums a lot before and during my holidays!!!

:D

keep a small driver in you pocket, minor onhill  binding adjustments can improve your day

[Beckmann AG]

20 hours ago, cin said:

I'm a real thinker when I get enthusiastic about something, so I hope I can turn those thoughts into action when I'm there!

In general, thoughts are too slow/linear to drive the action.

So,

Be aware of what you're doing, while doing it, without thinking about doing what you're doing. 

 

 

 

[b0ardski]

there's that zen thing again

[cin]

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Be aware of what you're doing, while doing it, without thinking about doing what you're doing.

Haha, thanks. Will be holding on to that quote when I'm at it :P

[Lurch]

 

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Be aware of what you're doing, while doing it, without thinking about doing what you're doing.

And here was me thinking Mr Beckmann was a master word smith, font of vast alpine knowledge and wielder of razor-like wit, when, in fact he is just simply a Jedi master! :)

 "Mmm, do or do not, there is no try"!

[Corey]

If a beginner can get in that mental state, they'll go far. 

If you like that topic, "The Inner Game of Tennis" is a great book. Same for "A Twist Of The Wrist". The first is about playing tennis, the second motorcycle racing. Both are applicable way beyond their intended scope. 

[Jack M]

Ohhhmmmm... let the ground come to you, grasshopper.

[Neil Gendzwill]

12 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Be aware of what you're doing, while doing it, without thinking about doing what you're doing. 

The Japanese term for that is "mushin".

[cin]

17 hours ago, nitro said:

Id recommend getting some body armour  

Is body armour a "must" when starting out, or is this more a thing for when I will achieve higher speeds? Or would it be especially useful for newcomers because they fall relatively often, though at lower speeds?

I have never worn a helmet before on my softboot setup but will definitely wear one when I'm going to hardboot. But never thought of wearing body armour.....

[Corey]

21 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

The Japanese term for that is "mushin".

? LOL!  

18 minutes ago, cin said:

Is body armour a "must" when starting out, or is this more a thing for when I will achieve higher speeds? Or would it be especially useful for newcomers because they fall relatively often, though at lower speeds?

I have never worn a helmet before on my softboot setup but will definitely wear one when I'm going to hardboot. But never thought of wearing body armour.....

Not required.  I'd say 95% of hardbooters don't wear anything.  I like my lightweight spine protector for two reasons:

1. In case I get hit from the rear.  Again.  

2. It smooths out the positively awful chairlift backs at my local resort.  Wasn't planning on this, but it was a very nice additional benefit.  

[Jack M]

37 minutes ago, cin said:

Is body armour a "must" when starting out, or is this more a thing for when I will achieve higher speeds? Or would it be especially useful for newcomers because they fall relatively often, though at lower speeds?

I have never worn a helmet before on my softboot setup but will definitely wear one when I'm going to hardboot. But never thought of wearing body armour.....

I don't use anything, but It might be nice to use some padded undershorts.  Google "padded shorts snowboarding" for some choices.  Burton makes a pricey one here.

If you are still in the stage of snowboarding where catching your downhill edge is an occasional accident, maybe also a back protector.

Definitely use a helmet.

[cin]

2 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

I don't use anything, but It might be nice to use some padded undershorts.  Google "padded shorts snowboarding" for some choices.  Burton makes a pricey one here.

If you are still in the stage of snowboarding where catching your downhill edge is an occasional accident, maybe also a back protector.

Definitely use a helmet.

Alright. Well my softboot snowboard skills are intermediate (one week a year for around 13 years) so I think catching an edge will not be an issue, neither for softbooting nor for hardbooting. I will look into padded shorts but until now I've never worn any protection either. Will probably try with just the helmet and if I do come home bruised I will get padded pants for next year :)

Oh and @Corey most ski lifts where I'm going have nice soft (fake-)leather clad seatings :P

[ursle]

Body armor is a personal decision, I wear wrist guards, a jacket with elbow, shoulder, rib and back bone pads, padded shorts with hard white plastic on the hips and tailbone, knee pads (for warmth) and helmet, on cold days I sweat, on warm days I wear ultra light weight versions, always the wrist guards, it’s not getting run into it’s hitting a tree or lift tower...things happen fast.

 

Err, when I road bike I don’t wear gloves;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Never worn armour, never been hurt.  Mind you, I am usually riding in soft Western conditions.  I do wear a helmet, of course.

[1xsculler]

I much prefer Sigi's carving vid to this extreme carving vid even though I expect both carvers can do both types of carving.  EC must be more difficult to do.

[noschoolrider]

On 1/3/2018 at 9:35 AM, 1xsculler said:

I much prefer Sigi's carving vid to this extreme carving vid even though I expect both carvers can do both types of carving.  EC must be more difficult to do.

EC which is now known as extreme carving evolved from euro carving.  Euro carving was pioneered by Peter Bauer and Jean Nerva.  Peter and Jean were European racers who became famous in movies/videos for their unique freeriding style (euro carving) that they preformed on their asymmetrical Burton PJ pro model race boards. 

Most racers are excellent freeriders and many of them still play with different variations of EC.  However, not many EC riders can freeride the way (and at the skill level) that Sigi does in the video I posted.  This is because Sigi's freeriding style requires more skill/athleticism.

For those who are interested, here's a guided-discovery experiment:
The next time you're on the slopes and have good EC conditions, try to make the same turn shapes on the same steep pitch and in the same narrow corridor as done while Extreme Carving, except this time do it without touching any body parts on the snow.  Try to do this all the way down the steep pitch without cheating (making bigger/wider turns, traversing, or stopping between any of the turns would be cheating).  After this experiment, think about the following 4 things:

1. Which technique (EC, or pure carved turns without touching the snow) was easier on a steep and narrow pitch?
2. Why do you think that technique was easier?
3. Why do you think the other technique was more difficult?
4. Does touching the snow have a stabilizing effect like an outrigger?

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by noschoolrider
added guided-discovery experiment

[Aracan]

I wear a helmet and a back protector, and I recommend you do too. The more you progress in carving, the more time you will spend perpendicular to the fall line, which, in a backside turn, means you are blind too all those speeding more or less along the fall line. I hope that if I do get shot down from behind, the helmet and the spine armour will help a bit.

I also wear wrist guards, but more out of habit than because I feel I really need them.

[Allee]

^^^ Ditto. I've been hit hard from behind, and for the next few days it was very easy to tell where my armor ended and my ribs began.  Plus, a compressed carving board with a long locked edge will build a lot of power, and if it goes wrong it goes wrong in a spectacular way. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's launched and back slammed hard enough to see stars. A back protector is a very good idea.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Allee

[cin]

@noschoolrider your comments about EC lowering overall speed due to body parts in the snow makes a lot of sense. I also see vids where people vary their carving styles between EC and other carving styles. I guess it also depends on what type of snow and slope people are on when deciding on the carving style, once they masrer different styles.

@Aracan, @Allee ,back protactor might be useful, though I nev er needed one before. As in, never been hit from behind on the slopes.

Back protactors look so bulky, heavy and uncomfortable... Any recommendations? :)

Edited January 4, 2018 by cin

[Corey]

I use this lightweight spine protector: https://www.banggood.com/Racing-Motorcycle-Body-Back-Armor-Spine-Protective-Jacket-Gear-p-913392.html

Once I added a little strap to keep the two shoulder straps together over my sternum, it disappears for the day.  It is quite thin, so it won't protect nearly as well as the thicker ones.  Maybe 1/4" of foam/fabric and the plastic plates aren't much thicker than a yogurt tub.  

Shipping takes about a month from China.  Note the measurements - those aren't US sizes they're listing!  An L fits me well at 5'11".  

If I'm trying to EC, I'm usually on a slope steep enough that it's hard to stop just by dragging body parts.  That's a pretty minor effect.