Beginner question about groomed slopes

[cin]

Hi everyone,

First some context: my name is Wessel, and I'm an aspiring hardbooter from the Netherlands. Been snowboarding (softboots) one week a year since 2003 and during this time got intrigued by the carving phenomenon. In order to pursue this myself, I've started hardbooting last summer on an indoor slope, attending a few trainings aimed at the slalom discipline. Though competitive slalom is not my ambition, I did get some pointers and excersises for when I get to ride outdoors in Austria later this month.

While I will probably have tons of questions after my first week of hardbooting, there is something I would like to know before going;

Most videos and pictures I found on the net when searching for hardbooting tips were on perfectly groomed slopes. I'm an obvious beginner on hardboots and will probably switch between skidding turns and half-carves most of the time.

Should I focus my hardbooting efforts on perfectly groomed slopes only, and swap to a softboot setup once the snow gets bad? Are there risks with hardbooting on less-than-perfect snow or are any risks only a thing at high speeds?

I already got the tip on another topic to at least start with most flexible board and work my way up if I feel comfortable.

 

My gear:

- Deeluxe Track-225

- 163 F2 Speedster GTS / F2 Race Titanium

- 163 F2 Speedster SL / F2 Race Titanium

- 171 Kessler Alpine / F2 Race Titanium

[lowrider]

In my opinion riding in less than ideal conditions is one of the fastest ways to learn. Fatigue is usually more an issue of age and   physical condition.  In my younger days riding from lift opening to closing was the norm not so much now.  If you have to ability to take multiple boards it gives you the option of stepping up your game or playing it safe ! As one who rides mostly groomed runs and enjoys spring like conditions i find the option of having a board set up with a plate system allows me to ride through chop that others give up on. Like most things snowboarding it comes down to personal preference.

[barryj]

Welcome Wessel,

The groom is where you can refine your game, but I agree with Lowrider that the chop, ie: less than ideal conditions will make you use all you've learned.  I love slicing through the chop with my Swoard Extreme Carver (instead of getting pitched all around trying to ride over it) but I would want to feel pretty confident in my technique to attack the chop on your carving setups.  

A lot of guys bring two boards to the Mtn., myself included.... for me it's to lengthen the fun factor when it gets too crowded for hard charging carving  or my legs are done and screaming for mercy!   Switching to a more forgiving setup is always a blast, weather  your softboot setup or a  more flexy fun hardboot set up which  your Track 225's would be perfect for!!......I run A Moss Performance Quad 60  http://www.mosssnowstick.com/product-2017-2018/performance-quad-60  with TD3's  and Track 325's and it's great for the groom or the pow or moderate carving.....even when my legs are shot!   

You have acquired an impressive arsenal for an "aspiring hardbooter"  I don't know F2 boards but the 171 Kessler will demand every ounce of muscle and attention you can muster and unless your around 100lbs./45 kilos I don't think the Track 225's are up to the task! 

I would suggest a stiffer boot to get the most out of those boards and make sure your boots are SNUG and you are not getting Any heel lift.  When purchasing hardboots a lot of riders  go down a whole size or more from their street shoe size to hardboot size. ie: i'm a street shoe size 12 US/Mondo 30...but my Tracks are 28.5's

Keep at it and deep trenches will come!

Again, welcome!

 

[Corey]

Ride the setup that's the most fun. ;)

I rode hardboots in everything as I don't own any good softboots. I greatly prefer a shorter all-mountain-type board when it gets choppy. You can maneuver around more freely with a shorter board. 

[cin]

Thanks for the replies guys, amazing how active these forums are. Glad I decided to go ahead and make an account to post my questions after lurking in the shadows for a while!

Great to hear that the less than perfect snow is not an issue, but a good way to learn. And thanks for the tip on the Kessler as well. Was already doubting whether to take it with me or wait until I gain some experience. I only have the Kessler because I was lucky to buy it for just €150 in near mint condition and haven't really dared to ride it yet... I will just keep looking at its beauty for now :)

I will also try carving on my softboot setup this year. Read on these forums that my Rossignol One Mag isn't the best for carving but it probably can't hurt to try.

I will let you guys know how I fare during my week in the snow. Again, thanks a lot for the tips and quick replies! :D

 

[Beckmann AG]

If you can post any footage/photos of you riding indoors, that might help avoid making inappropriate suggestions.

Broken/soft snow can be a blessing, but it's also a good way to get flipped, if you do the wrong thing at the wrong time for the wrong reason.

Flat slopes can be more injurious than steeper slopes, in that you tend to 'stick' when you crash, rather than sliding away.

[noschoolrider]

Here is a video of Sigi Grabner carving on snow that is not perfectly groomed:

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by noschoolrider

[1xsculler]

Thanks for sharing the vid. of Sigi.  That is now my new favorite carving vid.  IMHO, he demonstrates a real mastery of beautiful carving in a wide variety of conditions = the life long pursuit!  I don't have enough B-days remaining to get there but that won't stop me from trying.

I always take two boards too. Sometimes I set up each one the same; sometimes I use a slightly different set-up. I lock one to the ski stand and make a half dozen runs on each before heading back home.  It makes my Mt. time a lot more interesting.  The next time I go up I may choose two different boards although as I improve I'm feeling that one board is probably enough since 99% of my riding is now done on only a few of the same home area groomed slopes. Actually, as I improve, I may need the full quiver IF I ever get good enough to ride steeper, bumpier slopes.

Thanks again and Happy New Year to all.

[barryj]

Hey No Schooler

Sigi making riding on Not perfect groom look easy ......but don't forget he's riding on a Vist or Allflex plate which dampens that chop!.....and the fact he's a P. Giant Slalom  Olympic medalist probably! doesn't hurt either!

Edited January 1, 2018 by barryj

[SunSurfer]

Not Vist or Allflex. The plate is almost certainly the SG version of the hinge + hinge/slide design isolation (isocline) plate. It has a smallish front overhang. See the SG website for details. 

There's a massive thread on the forum devoted to the various designs and the performance trade-offs. 

Some riders love them, others prefer the "feel" of more direct contact with the snow. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by SunSurfer
Direct people interested in isolation plates to the relevant thread.

[1xsculler]

Ok, now all I need is a plate AND Olympic Medal experience, only one of which is in the cards.

Sigi is obviously very strong and very accomplished but I'll bet there are quite a few guys/gals on this site who cat cut up the Mt. almost as well as Sigi does.  Am I wrong?

Edited January 1, 2018 by 1xsculler

[Beckmann AG]

You don't need a plate to ride like that.

In addition to some competence, you need to be comfortable moving through space without anchorage.

[AcousticBoarder]

Yeah, perfect groomers are fantastic, you can really refine a specific part of your technique and they feel amazing under foot, buttery smooth, but the fact is most of your time will not likely be on them. If you only stick to them you are likely to only progress your riding for them and lack confidence in less than ideal conditions. 

Many videos use them because it looks better, you can often do more on them, and chances are, the morning is both the best conditions and the least crowded time. 

[1xsculler]

34 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

You don't need a plate to ride like that.

In addition to some competence, you need to be comfortable moving through space without anchorage.

No offense but I wish I could make sense out of your posts.  Please say what you mean.

[SunSurfer]

Words are funny things. To effectively communicate with them, there has to be some common understanding of what the words "mean". Miscommunication can easily happen when the speaker and listener understand different things for the same word(s). Communication in marriage, in my experience of 36 years of the state, often has a little of that. 

"Moving through space without anchorage." 

We feel balanced, solidly attached by gravity to the ground, when we stand on our base of support. To fly on a trampoline, to tumble through space as a gymnast, to unweight and transition from one edge to the other on an alpine snowboard is to move through space without feeling anchored.

It is one of the delightful paradoxes of this sport that despite the fact that I am hurtling along at 50km/hr, leaning over at 60 degrees from the vertical, balanced on a strip 160cm long x maybe 2-3cm wide, and turning sharply at the same time, that I feel so wonderfully anchored over my base of support. And then there's that delicious moment of weightlessness in transition, "moving through space without anchorage", before I dive into the next turn.

I'm not Erik, but that's the meaning I take from what he's written.

[noschoolrider]

2 hours ago, barryj said:

but don't forget he's riding on a Vist or Allflex plate which dampens that chop!.....and the fact he's a P. Giant Slalom  Olympic medalist probably! doesn't hurt either!

Beckmann is correct "You don't need a plate to ride like that".  Over the last 25+ years I have taught several people to ride rough terrain with hard boots and race boards.  Also, my girlfriend has a lot of VHS videos (from the 1990's) of Sigi and his friends riding Burton race stock boards (without plates) on really rough terrain at full speed and they totally carve it up.  However, riding like that does require strength and endurance.

I'm glad you guys liked the video and I hope it inspires some of you to develop the skills (and strength) to get good at riding hard boots on less than perfect conditions.

Edited January 1, 2018 by noschoolrider

[cin]

6 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

I'm glad you guys liked the video and I hope it inspires some of you to develop the skills (and strength) to get good at riding hard boots on less than perfect conditions.

Like the others, I'd like to thank you for linking this vid. Sigi makes it look so easy.. I've found a lot of vids that inspired and motivated me to start hardbooting and I'll surely add this one to my library!

And the discussion about plates is also an interesting one. Since I'm only just starting I won't be looking at anything else than a stock setup before I try making any adjustments.. but here I read that plates dampen and would make you feel leas connected with the slope, while I thought race plates were added to stiffen and stabilize a board. Are they only for dampening?

[noschoolrider]

On 1/1/2018 at 1:14 PM, cin said:

Since I'm only just starting I won't be looking at anything else than a stock setup before I try making any adjustments.. but here I read that plates dampen and would make you feel leas connected with the slope, while I thought race plates were added to stiffen and stabilize a board. Are they only for dampening?

Most modern plate systems allow an experienced rider to maintain more consistent/even pressure on the edges when they are engaged (better edge grip equals better tracking).  Some plates allow independent/unobstructed bending of the board (underneath the plate) and some plates can change the flex/stiffness of the board.

Peoples' definition of dampening varies a lot, however plates will reduce the amount of vibrations the rider feels, which provides a smoother ride, reduces fatigue and it can make the rider feel more stable as long as they are still in control.  Some plates provide less board feel than others and this can make inexperienced riders feel like they have less control.

Edited January 18, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

Please say what you mean.

I did. But here's another version.

Standing/moving on a slippery surface is not a 'natural' thing to do, and the typical response is to search for grip at all cost, usually by way of a 'clench' reflex.

On skis or snowboard, this usually makes things worse, not better, despite the notion that we have exerted 'control' over our immediate destiny.

The more time you spend in a state of instability, making small mistakes that affect equilibrium, becoming comfortable with the 'abnormal'; the 'easier' it is to relax at the autonomic level.

This is one of the reasons why hockey players have a relatively easy time learning to ski or snowboard. The slippery sensation means Game On!, rather than Where Are The Brakes and Quickly!

If you've had occasion to drive over a washboard gravel road, you know the ride gets a little smoother when you're 'throttle on', and it gets rougher on the brakes. The same is true on snow.

Finally, in an attempt to take control over a tenacious situation, many riders try 'harder' to set an edge, sink an arc, etc, in attempt to find an 'anchorage'. Usually this involves muscle contraction and a lowered CG, neither of which are parts of an effective suspension system.

So, with mileage usually comes competence and comfort, and that encourages flow and a smoother ride.

 

Skip like a stone; sink like a rock. Your choice.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

Your question could lead to a long discussion with the differing points of view swaying back and forth.

Concentrate on 2 things

1/ learn to carve your board, and to "find your edge" with just bindings. 

2/ Read the Plate thread at your leisure. Don't hurry, and think lots. The thread began when isolation plates were relatively new, and the thinking and opinions evolved over time. The different designs do VERY different things. How the plate is set up in relation to bindings and board affects performance and introduces a whole lot more variables and complexity.

[ursle]

Welcome, cin

Just get your self setup on your board so you can get it up on edge, if you’ve never carved a ski or board it’s a new experience,  tip it on edge and ride it, then switch edges, you should be asking questions about setup.

If I were you I’d stick to a slope you’re comfortable with until you can turn the board uphill at the end of the turn on both edges, sounds easy, try it...then, when you can link turns with speed, move to a more progressive run and start over, no need to get in trouble and get hurt, lots of hours figuring out how the board reacts will be a good foundation.

Actually, hard boots and  carving board are the best way to handle chop, just carve right through it, put the board on edge and it will carve anything, well, except actual hard ice Hugh bumps...when you start getting your head near the ground at speed, your addicted.

Dont get on the Kessler until you can carve the other boards, the Kessler will carve anything but it has a 15-17 foot radius turn and until your comfortable making the board come around, and know it will come around, the Kessler will just go faster and faster, skidding turns isn’t carving and makes for bad habits.

I was a skier and figured out how to carve skis, when I switched to an alpine snowboard I knew what the carve would feel like but had to figure out how to position my body to get the board on edge, while comfortably balanced, and I noticed that on skis I never really got warm, they didn’t require a lot of work, well as much work as an alpine snowboard, when I ride I can’t believe how much energy it takes, easily 10 times more than skiing, so eat and hydrate, especially in the beginning, err, if I were instructing you how to cross country ski I’d take you out for a half hour, a new activity is exhausting, after five times out it’s nothing.

Softboots don’t have the grip on the edge of the board that hardboots do, it’s way different, all the energy, torque, you put into the board goes right to the edge, wow, when you carve a tight turn on hard snow...not dissing softboots, just pointing out the difference.

 

[b0ardski]

3 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Finally, in an attempt to take control over a tenacious situation, many riders try 'harder' to set an edge, sink an arc, etc, in attempt to find an 'anchorage'. Usually this involves muscle contraction and a lowered CG, neither of which are parts of an effective suspension system.

So, with mileage usually comes competence and comfort, and that encourages flow and a smoother ride.

 

Skip like a stone; sink like a rock. Your choice.

Skip like a stone; this is my experience!

full C carves on variable nongroomed terrain come easy with hardboots on a worthy board , plus loose knees; lots of micro fexion/extention action in that suspension system.

Edited January 2, 2018 by b0ardski

[cin]

All this info and your opinions really makes me want to get out onto the snow! Wish there were real slopes in the Netherlands. Ah well..

I'm taking note of everything that's said here. Definitely will start on an easy slope, already have one in mind which I will be spending the first hours of my holiday on.

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Concentrate on 2 things

1/ learn to carve your board, and to "find your edge" with just bindings. 

2/ Read the Plate thread at your leisure. Don't hurry, and think lots. The thread began when isolation plates were relatively new, and the thinking and opinions evolved over time. The different designs do VERY different things. How the plate is set up in relation to bindings and board affects performance and introduces a whole lot more variables and complexity.

My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy with the amount of research I'm doing before trying it on the actual slopes.... I'm a real thinker when I get enthusiastic about something, so I hope I can turn those thoughts into action when I'm there!

6 hours ago, ursle said:

Dont get on the Kessler until you can carve the other boards, the Kessler will carve anything but it has a 15-17 foot radius turn and until your comfortable making the board come around, and know it will come around, the Kessler will just go faster and faster, skidding turns isn’t carving and makes for bad habits.

Yea, I got that tip a little earlier in this topic as well. Leaving the Kessler at home for now. Was already intimidated by it, but couldn't pass on the offer for it :) I'll just keep it for when I'm comfortable going down the slopes.

6 hours ago, ursle said:

If I were you I’d stick to a slope you’re comfortable with until you can turn the board uphill at the end of the turn on both edges, sounds easy, try it...then, when you can link turns with speed, move to a more progressive run and start over, no need to get in trouble and get hurt, lots of hours figuring out how the board reacts will be a good foundation.

About doing turns that go back uphill a little, I saw this video of a carving clinic where Corey Dyck explains why we would want to do J-turns (reduce speed by making full turns). Do you guys agree on most of what he's instructing?

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by cin

[pokkis]

You dont need to be Olympic hero, and you dont need plate, or perfectly groomed slope.

Just go and have fun

 

[SunSurfer]

I shot & edited Corey's Steeps, and Intermediate Clinic (feat. Fin Doyle & Steve Recsky) videos and was part of the group learning from them at SES 2013. (RiotSupercarver on YouTube) 
 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbFkVPcmsd5oH-Oe0s3LEMw

Corey is a very smooth rider, one of the current Moderators here on Bomber, and an all round nice guy. These Clinics took me through to intermediate level riding a couple of years ago.