Breakaway Bindings

[neanderthal]

A while back I hit a tree and broke my leg when my board went on one side and I on the other. Release bindings like skis would have prevented this but for snowboards thats just not practical.  For a while I was thinking of bolts that would break at a certain impulse like they do with telephone poles. This takes snowboard binding release  to a new level with pyrotechnics.(also for a different  purpose)

http://newatlas.com/resero-xv-snowboard-avalanche-safety/47770/

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Yeah, Miller (of fat ski, and strap-less ski-pole grip; notably) thought that two friction pins on a plate binding, placed under the toe/heel, and letting a twist moment capitulate and release said binding would be 'safe'. Of course, back then micro-electronics didn't exist in the Civil Sector, nor did self-comparing resistant echelons. So, while I have been a fan of 'keeping the feet on-board' since '81 or so, I can now see that electronics, mated with correct mechanisms, could 'React' to the forces involved, and make a detachment feasible in high-stress situations. BUT, it HAS TO RELEASE BOTH Feet within a micro-second of each other, and do so in such a way that a jumped-carve doesn't just blow off the board when you thought you had 'landed it'. Not easy, for sure, but, now, I think it's do-able, but won't be cheap anytime soon. I do like and respect the idea, and I also hate to see someone get hurt by how things are made now, but, as an over-reaching plan for "the Industry", I think it needs a lot of planning. It'll make only one or two groups rich, as well, then bleed everyone else dry, including most small-batch binding makers. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[terekhov]

Eric, ski industry for loooong time while trying to perfect releasable binders - cannot solve problem generally for high performance skiing: unexpected releases is a regular cruel thing. so any idea of releasable snowboard bindings for PERFORMANCE riding is suredly destined for FAILURE in my eyes. but of course it would be nice in avalanche situations - where skiers have at least some hope (of ski release), while boarders (esp. softbooters) are not (while board is very good anchor)

[billyt.]

Tree skiing/riding has it's risks, especially out west with deep tree wells that swallow you whole!  On a board with plates it is very hard to get out of one.  Depending on how you fall, trying to push yourself up, as you are sinking, to release a foot to swim out is very difficult.  Sometimes  you can throw yourself to position your board to deflect a tree impact?  I used to break bails on the bindings when the tail of the board would contact trees.  Then I would have to lay on the board prone, and paddle out of the trees to the nearest trail.  But it was big fun, and those powder stashes would keep the stoke for couple of days.  Step in bindings would have probably helped to release a boot when down?

[terekhov]

you can tie golf balls to front bail levers (short rope), as usually done for avalanche fast-release, and it will be easiest solution to tree well self-rescue... at least it will be a LOT simpler than for skiers or softbooters

[Erik J]

I can't imagine the tech and testing involved to make a releasable snowboard binding work. My worst nightmare on a board is one foot releasing and one staying planted. I think mentally I would have a hard time trusting the system if it were to develop. 

7 hours ago, billyt. said:

Tree skiing/riding has it's risks, especially out west with deep tree wells that swallow you whole!  On a board with plates it is very hard to get out of one.  Depending on how you fall, trying to push yourself up, as you are sinking, to release a foot to swim out is very difficult.  Sometimes  you can throw yourself to position your board to deflect a tree impact?  I used to break bails on the bindings when the tail of the board would contact trees.  Then I would have to lay on the board prone, and paddle out of the trees to the nearest trail.  But it was big fun, and those powder stashes would keep the stoke for couple of days.  Step in bindings would have probably helped to release a boot when down?

I've been on step ins for a long time for just this reason. 

Steep section that I hiked to where I have a narrow shelf to get my board on...Stepins with a leash for security. 

Fall in a tree well upside down or bury the board from a fall...Step ins for quick release.

Looooong traverse with lots of flat areas...Release rear step in while cruising, then push a few times to maintain speed, then click back in while not having to stop. 

I kept a tool handy to clear soles of boots before clicking in after a hike. 

[b0ardski]

as someone who has wrapped his leg around a tree in the steep & deep with hardboots on, and struggled horridly for 15 minutes to extricate myself into a position to release, while my knee was bent sideways; I can say an easily reached quick release binding (intec) would have saved me much pain, injury exacerbation, and recovery time.

The required mechanisms to release both bindings simultaneously (anything less would be greater injury than staying locked in) from an impact or avalanche would be ridiculously complex and expensive and heavy.

this question was asked and answered 30yrs ago

Edited February 16, 2017 by b0ardski

[lordmetroland]

2 minutes ago, Erik J said:

My worst nightmare on a board is one foot releasing and one staying planted. I think mentally I would have a hard time trusting the system if it were to develop. 

I had this happen at high speed when a Burton Mission baseplate disintegrated. As you surmised, it was very, very exciting. Almost pee-in-your-pants type exciting. James Brown may have written "Cold Sweat" about this very experience.

[Erik J]

13 minutes ago, lordmetroland said:

I had this happen at high speed when a Burton Mission baseplate disintegrated. As you surmised, it was very, very exciting. Almost pee-in-your-pants type exciting. James Brown may have written "Cold Sweat" about this very experience.

"shivers" 

I would skip the pee and go right to poo. Or maybe both. Probably throw in some vomit too just to really drive the point home to bystanders. 

[b0ardski]

fear of binding failure is one reason I prefer all metal bindings, entry/exit is the main reason I hate straps

(the binding in my tree meeting was a strap style modified for hardboots)

STEPINS FOREVER

[BlueB]

33 minutes ago, Erik J said:

I can't imagine the tech and testing involved to make a releasable snowboard binding work. My worst nightmare on a board is one foot releasing and one staying planted. I think mentally I would have a hard time trusting the system if it were to develop. 

I had a back foot release on a landing of a 40' jump... brrr. I have landed it on back foot, full force, right on the knuckle, on hard snow. I have to admit that I had the bail set a bit wishy-washy for more sideways flex, for stylin'. Next day I discovered that my boots also broke, not too sure if from that impact. No broken body parts... 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I find my step-ins do not release if there is any upward pressure at the heel: preferably I am standing on them. I think in a soft snow emergency it is likely I would have trouble releasing. 

[svr]

Having seen the old Miller system that Eric (PSR) mentioned above, I would NEVER have trusted it.

I think that most of the comments above ring true on how expensive it would be to make something that would be effective today.

I think that the intec step-in system is the closest available option and I even had a system rigged to my K2 clickers back in the day so that I could release

each foot independently that was around the top of my boot similar to the intec release (K2/Shimano actually marketed a single strap that connected both release levers for getting off the board in an avalanche).

I am also a lucky guy in that I survived a tree-well incident because I was the lead rider in a group of three and my two buddies had to actually come and unbuckle me from my board or else I would not have walked away from that crash without causing myself some serious injury and muscle tearing in order to get out of my bindings.

With all of that in mind, I would not be against seeing a releasable system, but I would be very hesitant and skeptical until I had seen and been able to test it.

cheers,

sandy

p.s. Terekhov, here was my golf ball bail attachments that I had setup with my TD2s for my backcountry hard boot days.

Edited February 16, 2017 by svr

[Corey]

If one were on a plate, and the plate released from the board, that would be preferred.  At least you know both feet are coming off together.  

But I think it's unnecessary for most crashes.  

[ibrussell]

Oh Miller releasable bindings, put them on a board at a trade show, couldn't tighten then enough to stay on carpet surfing. then was afraid I would break the plastic base. I think I would rather have a set of Burt ski bindings on.

[BlueB]

27 minutes ago, corey_dyck said:

If one were on a plate, and the plate released from the board, that would be preferred.  At least you know both feet are coming off together.  

But I think it's unnecessary for most crashes.  

Yes, I was thinking about the same lines... 

One could mount a regular plate, then a single front and back ski binding on top (on the duck bills), to hold another plate with snowboard bindings. 

[Corey]

I smell a TD4 prototype coming soon!  LOL! 

[Erik J]

Holy shit those Miller bindings look like a terrible idea. 

What about instead of a releasable plate, you put another plate on top your plate with a selectable release. The under each foot you could put another releasable binding. Then you can pick which plate you want to release when you crash. So simple.

But why would you want a plate to release from your board in the first place? All it does is send a land rocket down the mountain to impale someone while your legs are still stuck to one board. 

[lordmetroland]

26 minutes ago, Erik J said:

Holy shit those Miller bindings look like a terrible idea. 

My ACLs are pleading with me to stop looking at the pictures. Factoring all this into the equation, I'll take my chances with the trees. Even then, at least you have an interesting story to tell.

[Beckmann AG]

4 hours ago, Erik J said:

My worst nightmare on a board is one foot releasing and one staying planted.

Generally not much of an issue when the back lets go. That's just getting off a nasty lift ramp at high speed.

When the front lets go..,  that can get awkward.

[Neil Gendzwill]

21 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Generally not much of an issue when the back lets go. That's just getting off a nasty lift ramp at high speed.

I've had the back release a couple turns into a steep ungroomed run.  That's unnerving.  Always check that your pins are fully engaged!

[Beckmann AG]

23 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Always check that your pins are fully engaged!

Oh, right. Pins/operator error.

I was thinking broken bails. Like you roll the board into the sixth heelside turn of the run, and you get this kind of action:

Edited February 17, 2017 by Beckmann AG

[terekhov]

8 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I find my step-ins do not release if there is any upward pressure at the heel: preferably I am standing on them. I think in a soft snow emergency it is likely I would have trouble releasing. 

+1. many stepin systems had troubles releasing when pressed upward, eg when hanging upsidedown in tree well. avalanche balls + simple bails system is THE best solution for that.

[terekhov]

4 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

When the front lets go..,  that can get awkward.

once i had that experience in a baddest way: in really deep powder and high speed front foot go off undertaker198! now you get what is setback on that!! glorious nidecker 860 carbon bindings, in pretty good shape - flank disintegrated from disk and binding left on boot but disk is on undertaker... had to jump to the sky to save my life, pretty successfully. and then i had other problem- how to evac me from deeeps w/o board.... shit gonna happen if you ride a lot, and i'm conservatively averse to any safety precautions on the premise that something is safer than other

 

releasable snowboard bindings is examplary bad idea.

Edited February 17, 2017 by terekhov

[philw]

I always used to think I'd probably die in a tree well, but actually they're easy to deal with if you think about the best way to ride them, and I've never been caught out. I have helped rescue a few people though, and I would mostly avoid trying self-rescue, just wait for your mates to come and get you. If you can breathe, then there's no urgency, counter to how many people possibly feel about the situation.

A slide is perhaps the other circumstance you'd perhaps want to think about dumping gear, but personally I'd want my board I think. If I'm rag-dolling, my instinct is to try to use the board to stop me, I think I'd be lost without it, even in a tumbling twisting fall.

That said...

1. Most Clicker users would have a rope between the bindings, but that would not give much better access to the release than Intec t-handles, in my view.
    
2. F2 used to market a webbign strap and some pants with holes for this purpose (I kid you not) which allowed access to the T-handles without bending over much at all, or at least I assume that's what they did. You can still use a Fastec connector to extend the T-handles and do what you want with that.
    
3. When I shot a speed snowboard race (not quite an FIS sport) I'm sure the requirements were for releasable bindings. I didn't look at what they were using much, but they were supposed to break away in a massive crash, I believe.

You could go the other way, and build a boot with fastenings which are designed to break before your leg does. So the foot slips out of the boot, not the boot out of the binding.