comment from Ryan's safety video

[SnowboardingJ]

 

 

comment:

" TheStef4x1 day ago

....On the other hand I gotta say people who cut across the entire slope also really annoy me, like come on man where am I even supposed to pass you. I try keeping a lot of space between me and other people and usually try going as far left/right as possible, but it has happend that I had to do full stops (including slaming myself on the ground to stop myself) because of people down the hill making unpredictable turns and requiring waaay too much space. "

 

" reason291023 hours ago

....I've seen fist fight on the slope because of shit riders. Don't carve the entire slope and stay in your own lanes."

 

When did trails become a highway with lanes?  Someone here mentioned about this weird mentality before.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by SnowboardingJ

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I've seen enuff!  Skiers have this bad mentality in-and-of the Responsibility Code, that someone [ANYONE] can be passed by by a foot or so of clearance. That works on 'old school' skis, when referencing the shoulders of the downhill skier, but it's a dumb-assed excuse for not caring what might be in your way!

Now one of the things I note in the previous video (and, ski-area managers should really take note of!) is that while riding, this Boarder is Always looking Uphill on Toe turns, As I've noted now for over a quarter century! It helps greatly. Yet, we still have fools that think passing this close, from an uphill perspective, is 'OK'. It's NOT, and in my day as an Employee of various resorts, I've sent five skiers and one snowboarder back down the hill minus their ticket/pass for getting a tad too close to myself or my students. 

To the riders here, keep these thoughts in mind, please;  Look Uphill on toe turns ALWAYS! and plan your line according to the traffic you expect [I know, Not Your Call, legally, but, better than getting run over!],;Use that info to plan the next 2-4 turns, but Look Uphill again SOON!;Don't play music that's loud in headphones, it'll distract you from incoming traffic noises; Use your Hearing to avoid those uphill of you!; Do long arcs in a fairly predictable pattern [in terms of cadence, or terrain use] so that skier/riders uphill of you can also plot a line;On heelside turns, determine your line for the next 2-4 turns, knowing what's coming to you, but also integrating the approach of others from above; Use hand signals BEFORE sliding off to one side of the trail to stop, and stop on your toeside and Kneel when you can,  you are far more visible this way, and can see+hear what's coming at you; and NEVER park under a knoll or jump, as you'll get Landed Upon or Hit!; If stopped in groups, pull off to one side, or be where you are all very visible, and be be sure at least One of you is kneeling and/or looking uphill to alert the others;Always pull in either very slowly to a parked group, or, preferably, pull in just Downhill of others, as not to slice them with Your edges!; Call out as you pass [on your LEFT, or RIGHT, but do so Loudly and before overtaking]; and lastly, never assume that anyone else is really in control!  "PSR"

[drschwartz]

So. I know the code, and always abide by it. But to me it's a lot like being a pedestrian in a crosswalk -- you only have the right of way when someone gives it to you. Getting hit by a flying piece of sh*#+!! skier or boarder is kind of like getting hit by a car. (Ask me how I know). And boarders are just as bad about this as skiers.

So: 

always look uphill

be aware of you surroundings

don't try to throw down huge, slope-wide carves when it is crowded, you're just asking for trouble

Have fun, be responsible for your own safety. My surgery schedule is crowded enough already.

Doc

[terekhov]

3 hours ago, SnowboardingJ said:

 

 

 

" reason291023 hours ago

....I've seen fist fight on the slope because of shit riders. Don't carve the entire slope and stay in your own lanes."

 

When did trails become a highway with lanes?  Someone here mentioned about this weird mentality before.

 

 

 

 

personally i regard that as extension of point 1 of fis code of conduct:

FIS Rules of Conduct:

1. Respect for other skiers and snowboarders
A ski­er or snow­board­er must be­have in such a way that he or she does not en­dan­ger or prej­u­dice others.

because carving and riding ACROSS slope in any other way - is not USUAL behaviour - it is your own responsibility to respect other when you decide to do just that. so- be predictable for oncoming traffic in any way possible. i always yield to "highway with lanes" metaphora myself, it's not to be right, it's due to respect of orhers.

[Aracan]

I see two different arguments here. Of course it is inadvisable (and bad manners) to carve across the whole width when there is a lot of traffic.

But that is not the same as "behaving unpredictable". You have all been there, just like me: There is a nice incline, there is hardly any traffic, you carve across most of the slope once, twice, three times - and on the fourth turn you nearly (or actually) get shot down by a skier who was obviously unable to "predict" that you might continue to make wide turns. That is something you can only avoid by a) looking uphill not only on toesides, but on heelsides as well or b) knocking out anybody who looks stupid before they board the lift.

[ibrussell]

So if it ok to hit a carver making GS turns across the run, and say they should stay in their lane... it's ok to hit the 5 year old snowplowing the same GS type turns across the run??? He should stay in his highway lane   No the uphill Skier must avoid the downhill person!

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

26 minutes ago, ibrussell said:

So if it ok to hit a carver making GS turns across the run, and say they should stay in their lane... it's ok to hit the 5 year old snowplowing the same GS type turns across the run??? He should stay in his highway lane   No the uphill Skier must avoid the downhill person!

As I noted. often the reason a skier is too close is in how they read body position, and because the shoulders/head are the fixated target. Sidecut and edging ability also play a part in this, although that aspect is [Finally!] getting some notice within PSIA, now that skis {and have had, for close to 20 years!} have progressive tight sidecuts that allow for across-the-hill carves. When the Sims Blade and Burton Safari came out (88-89), we had boards that could put down 180* arcs with relative ease. By '90-91, I could put my Barfoot around to about 270* of a carved circle. '93 was amazing, as Asyms with solid edge-hold were available, but my little Joyride EF 153 was the first board I looped, crossing my tracks on both edges in one run! My Nitro EFT Asym could easily go back uphill (on moderate/easy slopes), then loop back down the hill. I vividly recall seeing skiers react in shock to find me coming UP the hill at them, only to revert to going back downhill. At Okemo, when just goofing around like that, I got whacked a good dozen times, usually as I made a heelside arc (my 'blindside'), but, then again, just teaching Newbs at around Noon, you'd expect to have to 'play goalie' to protect your charges; getting hit just came with the frenzied lunchtime crowd that skied like they drive (and, S. New Englanders are infamous for their road manners, besting Italians by a fair share!). It was in those years (88-94) that I started to teach better, aggressive riders to look Uphill on toe turns, and use their sense of hearing to take evasive action or avoid confliction. Sometimes, the event of a collision is just unavoidable, but usually, the factor is that not enough 'personal space' was given by the uphill individual. It's one of those 'risk factors' that Mountain Management and Instructors/Ambassadors/Ski-Patrol haven't been vocal enough about. Don't get me started on lift safety....

[terekhov]

31 minutes ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Don't get me started on lift safety....

yes, safety is a complex measure. when two people collide - usually there're both of them who've made some mistakes. for example - if some monkey ride in totally white outfit with rock-bananas in she's ears, and - totally deservedly - was hit by oncoming skier in shadowy place.. in such situation someone must be commonsense idiot to prove that upper skier must avoid deaf invisible moving object

commonest feature is a starting downhill without looking uphill first. I'm always give some "personal" fuckin' space for idiots who stand at the center of slope without looking uphill, as if they wanted to start any moment and undercut anyone only to prove later that uphill skier is a WRONG and they're right

DS: sometimes collisions is unavoidable, and looking for WRONG side is not that easy in a respectful way. but main rule of conduct on slopes is rule 1. if you didn't obey it - other rules is out of your business!

fis code of conduct do not teach who is right and who is wrong in that situations. it is written as a guidelines of respectful behaviour on slopes. but - it is sport, and slopes in public stadium. obey the rules, but do not be easily offended if something goes not well enough - more often than not you have your part of responsibility in that. as you've said "and never assume that someone is in total control"

Edited January 19, 2017 by terekhov

[najserrot]

Yeah make sure to check uphill. My firends that are riding with me are mostly skiers. And eventhough we have been riding hundreds of times they say that they are sometimes still putoff buy the whole carving thing. They cant really put a finger to why but mention:

1. The direction of the board when carving--- the traverse and uphill part

2. Downhill speed --- fast when the board point down the fall line but then during the traverse, even though the rider is moving perpendicularly to the fall line with more or less the same speed as the start of the turn, for the one riding behind it seemed that I suddenly stoped or slowed down only to start another fast turn which was wierd for them.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Skiers are often surprised by how fast we can change direction and how quickly we come across the hill, because we carry most of the downhill speed we had laterally.  However, a snow-plowing beginner changes direction pretty damn suddenly, and much less predictably.  The uphill skier must pay attention and (gasp) slow down if necessary when approaching the downhill skier.

[sic t 2]

I could not voice more support of this safety video.  It is OUR responsibility to look uphill because we carve.  Kudos to Ryan !!!!!  
Practicing what I preach: note the 3 "head turn checks" before the carve.

[Erik J]

I ride like I am invisible and assume that no one sees me. 

[RyanKnapton]

I actually deleted a couple of the first comments that had people acting like the downhill skier / rider did anything wrong... It was just disgusting that after stating the rules that many times, that people still don't 'get it'.  My next safety vid will spell this out even more.. and I'll just ride around and point out EVERY SINGLE PERSON below me and do the Oprah type "YOU have the right of way, YOU have the right of way, YOU have the right of way... no matter what the hell you decide to do".

[lordmetroland]

34 minutes ago, RyanKnapton said:

My next safety vid will spell this out even more.. and I'll just ride around and point out EVERY SINGLE PERSON below me and do the Oprah type "YOU have the right of way, YOU have the right of way, YOU have the right of way... no matter what the hell you decide to do".

I love this idea. The Asperger's Skier's Responsibility Code video.

[terekhov]

the word RIGHT - in "right of way" context - is correct if and only if it not places idea of "someone [other than me] is WRONG" in someone's mind. read FIS code AS A WHOLE. downhill skier have a right of way ONLY IF it obeys ALL OTHER points of FIS ski code.

sport arena is not a place of rightness or wrongness. not any one will feel better after traumatic collision only on the penultimate idea that he WAS right.

[michael.a]

Not really, whos right and wrong (and at fault) will be critical in the following lawsuit for damages and compensation. 

Ryan, thats something Id mention, that hitting the downhill skier can end up costing you a fortune let alone the knowledge your carelessness actually hurt someone. I remember reading that some skiers even git jail sentences.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by michael.a

[terekhov]

59 minutes ago, michael.a said:

Not really, whos right and wrong (and at fault) will be critical in the following lawsuit for damages and compensation.

I think - and I surely understand that I will be a minority on that! - that merging sport and common law is a worst thing of all. better leave mountains to meritocracy law & order. noone who look for damages & compensation on the FIS code - do not respect it author's motives. when some judge with misery understanding what the hell is snowgliding at all - uses FIS rules as a LAWFULL guidelines - it is tragedy & comedy in one lawfull pass. IMHO

 

I've written above on the matter of SPIRIT of the FIS code, not the letter of it - which cannot be understood good enough with people not in this cold&snow business for years..

[Aracan]

Quote

better leave mountains to meritocracy law & order

What would that mean in the event of me getting hit in a way that leaves me permanently crippled?

[terekhov]

7 hours ago, Aracan said:

What would that mean in the event of me getting hit in a way that leaves me permanently crippled?

I have no plan for starting any flames and won't follow-up on this sub-topical question, but IMHO it's your own personal sport problem. maybe you need to own extensive sport insurance with hyper coverage or what, but in my eyes it's your own personal sport problem. riding on hopes that some external force WILL and SHOULD cover your crippleness is not more than wishful thinking. be kind and truthful to yourself - your own safety is your own business. as said in this topic: slopes is not a multi-lane highway. they're not policed by road cops. deal with it.

Edited January 20, 2017 by terekhov

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

The FIS has issues, though. I recall an aspiring Olympic Racer hitting a Coach in an Active Race Course. The Skier's potential career was lost right there. He was RACING GATES. The Coach stepped into an Active Lane. The Coach Sued, and WON. 

Sorry, I'm pro ISF/USASA. I helped develop some of the Freestyle and Halfpipe regs/rules now copied and used by FIS, but that were born Here, in the US, For Snowboarders. That the FIS has put out such guidelines is good, but, their conduct in legal matters, yeah, Not a Fan.

[lafcadio]

It's a sad fact that many people who use the slops simply do not understand the rules.  As an experiment, I asked someone who I trust, who I think has good judgement, good moral character, who typically skis about 10 days a year for more than 20 years, to view the video without any context or discussion.  I then asked who was at fault.  And without hesitation was told, "obviously the person on the snowboard".  I had a hard time believing what I heard.  

It would be interesting to see the video presented without context or discussion of the rules and then poll viewers to see who they think is at fault.  Then see the data from the polls. 

 

 

 

[softbootsurfer]

We all pay a fee to be there, there being wherever you want to be...the ONLY way you can hit someone below you on the mountain, is to guess where they are going to be, only to find out you guessed wrong, people don't like being wrong, especially if they hurt someone, so they simply blame the person they hit to make themselves feel better...thing is, there is no excuse for you to hit someone else, no matter what they are doing, period!!!

[billyt.]

I call it the "Crazy Ivan" from the movie The Hunt for Red October.  All of a sudden, the person going left in front of you, abruptly changes direction.  You are well aware of this, anticipating " Ivan" altering your course not to go off trail or collide with that person.  We all must have situational awareness of the runs we are on and uphill and down hill traffic.  I usually ride during the week when the slopes are pretty much empty, but still there are times when riders and skiers are bombing down runs while you are trying to link continuous carves.

[Zone]

Young Drivers (Carvers) of Canada teaching is DEFENSIVE driving (carving)

[philw]

What he said - defensive is the only way to go.

Every day scenarios require a reasonable approach as opposed to slavish following of some old rule book. Middle Americans please take note.