Softboot Carving Angles?

[barryj]

You softboot carvers running the same angles as on your hardboot setup? ...........or is it just expected to have to run lower angles??

   

[west carven]

howdy barryj

softboots boards are normally wider hence lower angles. get your toe/heel as close to the edge

as possible for the best leverage. I will look at the numbers after I look at the position relative to

the edge. then carpet carve to see if it feels doable. don't get caught up in numbers, get the

best position for the optimum edge pressure.

 

[softbootsurfer]

45/45 with 3 strap locked Highbacks...If and when I used HB, the angles were around 65/60 as the Lateral pressure dominates from the boots stiffness, totally different than ankle hinge toe heel pressure of standard SB bindings...just a thought...

Edited December 6, 2016 by softbootsailer

[Buell]

I set my binding angles so that my toes and heels are at the edges of my board.  Because softboot boards are wider, softboots will almost always be set at lower angles that a hardboot set up.  Soft boots and bindings are not well designed to be run at high angles anyway.  I have ridden softboots at 39f/33r, but I prefer to run them at lower angles than that.  Somewhere around 30f/24r, but again, it depends on the width of the board.  On hardboots, I get my boards built to a width where I ride 55f/50r

With softboot bindings, you can (and should) rotate your binding highback to sit more directly behind your heel as you increase your angles.  Rotating the highback behind your boot will give you more heel side power and help keep your upper boot cuff from slipping off the side of the highback during heelsides.  

Softboot riding and carving tends to be more about finesse that hardboot carving.  The equipment overall and the the board/rider connection is less stiff.  You will want a lighter touch but can also be more playful (at least I can).  I tend to float (balance?) on my edge more in softboots and drive my edge more in hardboots. 

[barryj]

Ok...I'm hearing 30-45 degrees as the norm.   I assume the addition of using Bomber Plates doesn't effect that norm?

   

[svr]

Barryj,

There really is no "norm" as it comes down to what is comfortable for you and your style of riding.

 As for the question of Power Plates changing the setup angles, again it will come down to what feels comfortable for you.

For my riding style, I found I was able to go wider with higher angles when using the plates with a +6 rear and +3 front base on them, but I played around with them a lot and found that I enjoyed a +3 front and +3 rear setup when I used them.

Additionally, now that my Flow's have built in cant, I don't use/need the canting of Power Plates and now use the Apex Gecko Stealth plates for lift.

Sadly, all of this gear is not cheap (just like hardbooting), and there are many variations that will completely change how your board rides, so the best advice is to start with what feels comfortable when standing in your setup at home, measure and write down what all of your settings are so that you have a reference point and then go ride it. When you make changes after that first day of riding, spend at least half a day riding the setup before changing it (unless you have pain). Then make small adjustments from where you started (and again write down what you changed and spend some time riding it so you will know how it really feels). One of the biggest mistakes I've seen riders make is to change there setups after only one or two runs and then just complain about their gear. There are so many variables with boots, bindings, boards, plates, snow conditions, etc that little changes and adjustments can have drastic effects.

Hope that helps.

sandy

[philw]

12 hours ago, barryj said:

You softboot carvers running the same angles as on your hardboot setup? ...........or is it just expected to have to run lower angles??

   

Lower angles. I'm not a soft boot person, but when I've rented them I've quickly worked out that you do not want to set them up or try to ride them like hard boot boards. The equipment isn't designed for steep angles, so you don't want to use it that way.

[barryj]

Thanks for all the info guys! 

I have tried the new setup for two days (without the Bomber Plates) and have made adjustments to angles and stance width and it's still a lot of work to get down the hill feeling in control.  I gonna wait for the Bomber Plates with 3/3 disks to arrive before I give it another go.

Like you guys say, it's individual and there's no norm to what works and is comfortable.   I'm a mutant that has a blast with TD3 SW at 65/60 with 3/6 lift on my pow or carving boards.....because that works for me and is comfortable.

 I am going to try 3/3 lift on the Pow board this season 

[JRAZZ]

I just head to the mountain equipped with a variety of wrenches and screwdrivers (insert joke here).   Ride, change, repeat as necessary.  You'd be surprised how quickly you can zero in on a pretty good setup.

 

So far I'm 27/6 with 0/0 cants on softboots and 65/60 with 3/6 on hardboots.  Granted, hardboot angles are more dependent on board width but I seem to like steeper angles and narrower boards in the short time I've been HBing.

 

[Jack M]

I got back into softboots last year.  I got Burton Driver X boots, they seem very stiff, can't imagine tweaking any tricks in them.  Also got Burton Genesis X bindings which I let my buddy pick out for me who runs the Burton shop at Sugarloaf.  They seem stiff and carvey.  Except they don't allow angles beyond 36 on the front foot and 27 on the back foot, so that's where I put them at first.  With size 10.5 boots I would still boot out on hardpack if I tried to lay out carves.  I have a Winterstick Seth Wescott 164.  He has the same size boots so I figured the board would be a good width.  Once I gave up on the idea of fully laid out carves, I had fun carving at moderate lean.  But it didn't seem quite right, carving with a forward facing posture and the highest binding angles I could on softboots - like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.  I had seen @trailertrash carving full on alpine-style on his Coiler BX and Flow bindings, but he has no boot-out issues.  Then another master softbooter, @jburrill, suggested that back foot angles higher than 15 degrees kill your toeside power.  So I tried backing off to 27/15 and I'm loving it a lot more.  Everything about it feels better - the carving, and the not carving.  And he's right, toeside is way better this way.  It's fun to be on a "normal" snowboard again when conditions aren't good for alpine.  Makes me feel like a kid again.

I've concluded that getting a softboot setup to compliment a hardboot setup and then trying to ride the softboot setup like a hardboot setup is missing the point.  If I want to ride that way, I'll go get one of my alpine rigs.  I'd be interested to try a wider softboot board to avoid all boot-out, like Ryan Knapton.

Just for fun here's a pic of Seth Wescott from Sugarloaf's facebook page last week, laying it out on a Winterstick Roundtail 158 he was testing (which is wild, considering he's like 6'1", 195).  I believe he usually rides at 27/9, so he'd boot out on hardpack too, but it looks like he found an accommodating patch of soft snow.

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I've concluded that getting a softboot setup to compliment a hardboot setup and then trying to ride the softboot setup like a hardboot setup is missing the point.

Given that, if you had it to do over again would you get a softer setup?

Edited December 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[RCrobar]

Not sure if the video I provided below offers anything to this thread, other than what is old is new again for us older guys:)  This video is of Mikkel Bang, guess he is a hot shot Burton rider.  The video displays some nice powder riding at Baldface, something we all need with this slow start to the snow season.  Mikkel is riding Craig Kellys' old board.

 

The video starts out with a question to Mikkel, 'Mikkel, what board are you riding?'  His reply,'I'm trying out Craig's old board, it's pretty insane.  I am trying out his stance, actually I really like it.  I might just chance my whole riding style now .. chuckles:))) 

 

Craig rode +27F, +12R ... one click and you are riding Craig's' set up Jack:)  I often wonder why soft boot guys don't complain more about having to ride stance angles in increments of 3 degrees!

 

 

Enjoy the movie while we wait for snow.

Cheers

Rob

Edited December 7, 2016 by RCrobar

[Mig]

2 hours ago, RCrobar said:

I often wonder why soft boot guys don't complain more about having to ride stance angles in increments of 3 degrees!

 

Because it would be useless to have more precision with the current equipment. Every softboot binding size is made to fit a wide range of boots sizes. So every time you put your foot in the binding to strap in, there's enough sideways play in the binding to slightly change the angle. Particularly at the boot toes, near the toestrap anchor points. So unless you pay close attention to align your boot against either side of the baseplate, center it precisely, or have boots that are in the very upper limit for that baseplate size, every time you step in the bindings your riding angle varies a little.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mig

[Neil Gendzwill]

Even in hard boots, is 1 or 2 degrees really all that critical?  I feel like a lot of people spend a lot of time screwing around with settings and blaming their setups, when what they need to do is get it close enough and then ride.  I always feel it's me letting down my equipment rather than the other way around.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[lordmetroland]

58 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I always feel it's me letting down my equipment rather than the other way around.

I'm pretty sure that my equipment is the limiting factor. I'd suck a lot less if the gear cooperated. Maybe a $900 niche board will do the trick?

[Jack M]

4 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Given that, if you had it to do over again would you get a softer setup?

I wouldn't want it any softer.  My air tweaking days are over, and the stiffness of my boots and bindings is great for freeriding.  They're still a far cry from hardboots.  I don't feel a need for a 3rd strap though.  I'd be interested to try bindings with a metal baseplate.  The baseplate flexes significantly.

[philw]

4 hours ago, RCrobar said:

Not sure if the video I provided below offers anything to this thread, other than what is old is new again for us older guys:)  This video of is Mikkel Bang, guess he is a hot shot Burton rider.  The video delays some nice powder riding at BaldFace, something we all need with this slow start to the snow season.  Mikkel is riding Craig Kellys' old board.

 

I guess I'm officially old. That guy's actually riding in good powder style - none of that affected sideways stance business. It's a matter of opinion of course.

I vaguely met CK when he was in Blue River once or twice, but never rode with him. I didn't like the "tucked knee" business, but that's not particularly apparent here (and in any case went out of fashion before his angles did: it's not necessary).

The other point is one I agree with, which is roughly "don't try to ride a soft like you'd ride hard". If you do you'll waste a day working out that's not the best way.

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

I wouldn't want it any softer.  My air tweaking days are over, and the stiffness of my boots and bindings is great for freeriding.  They're still a far cry from hardboots.  I don't feel a need for a 3rd strap though.  I'd be interested to try bindings with a metal baseplate.  The baseplate flexes significantly.

I personnaly didn't like the Genesis, or pretty much any Burton binding since they dropped "regular" baseplates and went EST and Re:Flex. The Ride El Hefe metal baseplate and micro-disk offer a great responsive connection to the board. And that disk offers infinite stance and setback adjustment. But you need a board with a 2x4 insert pattern to maximize its potential. Last years Now Drive is also a great binding I like. The big metal disk offers a similar connected feel to the board. They switched to a plastic carbon reinforced disk this year to make it lighter, but I have not tried them. So don't know if they offer the same "connected" feel. Both of those bindings offer a direct and responsive connection to the board, without being too harsh. Dampening is well managed on both, but in very different ways.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mig

[Mig]

48 minutes ago, philw said:

I vaguely met CK when he was in Blue River once or twice, but never rode with him. I didn't like the "tucked knee" business, but that's not particularly apparent here (and in any case went out of fashion before his angles did: it's not necessary).

CK is the definition of style in my book. I could watch him ride 24/7. I definitely don't care about fashion, and if all snowboarders did only what is necessary, we would only see robots going down the slopes.

[slopestar]

Well my 2¢.

21/9 freestyle. Terje

27/12 free ride. CK

33/18 BX freecarve

softy stances that work for me...

[xy9ine]

i think there's definitely something to wide softboot carving setups. i've more or less ditched my hardboot gear for soft, so i like something that won't boot out when carved hard. on my 26.5cm wide fullbag, this means 36/30 angles (with shortish sole length 9.5 drivers & el heffe bindings, which have a thin metal heel loop). the stiff boot / binding provide pretty decent lateral stiffness, so this setup feels pretty awesome to me. an even wider deck with flatter angles could be neat though. 

[steven]

I may try a wide board, 27cm waist or more, for low-angle softie carving for my next set up, but my current soft boot set up is a coiler bx w/ 23.7 waist, and 8.5 scr. For full carves (no boot-out) i need to go about 48/39. my boots are malamutes size 10, and have power plates under my rossignol Xavier bindings. I do ride the setup similar to the way I ride my hard boot setups, but it's more comfy and flexible in variable runs and conditions, and carves surprisingly well. It works perfectly for what i was trying to achieve, which was a set-up that was in between my hardboot stuff and my everyday soft set up, a nitro pantera, ridden with 33/24 angles. 

[slopestar]

Now we need Bomber to develop a softboot binding that's the BOMB! Like integrated power plates with a rear entry power triangle binding like flow. Droool... hi my name is beta.... tester

Edited December 7, 2016 by slopestar

[slopestar]

Now we need Bomber to develop a softboot binding that's the BOMB! Like integrated power plates with a rear entry power triangle binding like flow. Droool

[Jack M]

12 hours ago, RCrobar said:

Craig rode +27F, +12R ... one click and you are riding Craig's' set up Jack:)
 

DONE!  Thanks for posting that video, I feel validated.  I've believed for a couple decades now that the vast majority of softbooters just set up their boards like their favorite pipe rider and never give it another thought.  26", 5/-5 or some such ridiculousness.  Unless you truly want to ride ambidextrously, e.g. Knapton, I think most freeriders would have an epiphany like Mr. Bang there if they tried a narrower, more directional stance sensible for actual freeriding.  He looks so much more fluid in that video than most.

CK was the epitome of softboot style for me.  Re-watching his old movies, the tuck-knee thing looks dated and a bit overdone, but he was a joy to watch regardless.  I seem to recall he mellowed out on the knee tuck in later years.