the Hands, what role do they play

[softbootsurfer]

and I think this shows it best as a still pic...thanks bradley

 

as the edge is just finishing a left turn, where are the eyes and the right hand headed ?

Edited May 24, 2016 by softbootsailer

[Emdee406]

Hi Emdee406

I did do this MANY times trying to figure this out between the guy on the left and the right.

I beat the hell out of the space bar trying to pause and see what I could, the riders moves are so fast and explosive I couldn't decide what I thought I was seeing. I tried to focus my attention on the racer on the rights ... left and right hip position on the heel vs the toe side turn ... I just couldn't decide. This is why I decided to stop the video and compare still frames, my thinking that the pictures wouldn't lie. Next I decided to look at the chest and shoulders, this was much easier to see the rotation. Sitting in my computer chair right now, it is easy to rotate the shoulders but not the hips, so I just don't know. With the surf based rotation technique, which I really do know very well, it can be hard to see the hip movement at times as the rotation can be very small and quick, especially when pumping a quick straight line.

All this indecision is why I mentioned that I am NOT claiming to be a SL Skate expert at all!

As an actual racer what is your call, what do you see? Better yet, if you do the chop and sweep what do you feel?

Regardless, I found the chop & sweep arm movement really interesting and both the riders very impressive!!

Cheers

Rob

Hi Rob and Softbootsailer,

From the point of view of a skateboard racer/coach and snowboard racer/instructor, I feel as though the hips are the key to both sports.

As your core, the hips for me, are the key factor in rotation. It's like being a doctor, looking at a symptom and determining the true cause of what is happening.

We SEE the arms because they are so visible, and the hips less so. It is REALLY hard to get the hips moving, and it's not a natural movement, so the arms can be used to 'encourage' the hips to do their job.

The two slalom racers, my friends Marcus from Sweden and Janus from Latvia, ostensibly have very different styles, but to me, when I look past the 'symptom' = arms, and look at the 'cause' = the hips, I see pretty much the same movement.

When I look at one of my snowboard heroes, Sigi Grabner, I see the same thing. The arms are a long way from the feet, and to use them as the turn initiator, would be less effective.

One of the most effective drills for race coaches, is the ride with a slalom gate held parallel as you make turns, ultimately just resting it on your forearms as you turn. This trains you to keep the hands level as you ride.

By a way to illustrate my point is a video I made 6yrs ago...(please don't subject yourself to the whole tedious thing, just the first minute or so will do), but it shows the two sports in one tape, and may, or may not, give light to my version of what we see.

Thanks.

Martin

Edited May 9, 2016 by Emdee406

[RCrobar]

Edited June 3, 2016 by RCrobar

[SunSurfer]

Slalom skateboarding and hard boot snowboarding have only superficial similarities. The differences are significant.

 

Slalom skaters are attempting to both steer their board around the cones and pump the board to maintain, and/or increase, their speed.

I have yet to see convincing evidence of effective pumping of a snowboard. If someone knows of a video showing a snowboarder propelling themselves on flat ground by the forces generated by their body and arms while their feet are held in the bindings please post it.

 

Ice skaters, skiers skating their skis, slalom skateboarders pumping their board, and a sailboat sailing up wind all produce their forward motion with essentially the same forces in play.

A force is applied lateral to the direction of motion, a mechanism exists that restricts the resulting movement sideways, and because the direction of motion is not at right angles to the lateral force, forward motion is generated as the skate/ski/yacht also moves sideways.

With ice skaters and skiers it is the skate blade or edge of the ski that is pushed laterally but also acts to resist lateral movement. With a yacht the wind presses on the sails and the keel or centreboard resists lateral movement. On a skateboard the wheels grip while the bearings allow wheel rotation to allow forward movement. If the mechanism producing restriction of lateral movement is lost i.e. the skate or ski skids sideways, or the centreboard is pulled up, then the force maintaining forward motion is reduced or lost.

 

Two other issues are important.

1/ Friction forces must be less than the forward motion forces generated in order for any initial forward motion to be maintained or increased in speed.

2/ A balanced position must be maintained otherwise the rider will fall, or the yacht capsize.

 

On a skateboard, at low to medium speeds, all the rider has to do to steer and maintain lateral grip, is lean the board. The wheel material and the riders weight create the lateral grip and a steered, nonskidded, turn results.

On a snowboard just leaning is not enough. The edge must be precisely engaged in order for it to grip and lateral movement (a skidded turn with a wide track) prevented.

 

Expert slalom skateboarders will be using their upper limbs to both produce lateral force with the movement of their arms and upper body, and maintain their balance in response to the lateral forces being generated by their lower body. The more total lateral force they generate the faster they will go, within the limits of wheel adhesion to the road surface.

 

In the absence of evidence of effective pumping of a snowboard, snowboarders can only be balancing and distributing bodyweight with the use of their arms and hands in order to engage the edge of the board and produce a carved turn.

[softbootsurfer]

Rob,

Sean is using his hips, we all have to use them in any of these types of Sports, but he is leading his hips with his hands, at least in the video and the stills above...you can have the hands tight to the body and do this as well...the hands can start the flow from the mind as I think Sigi demonstrates in his video, and Sean certainly does in his surfing and skating...I remember teaching a few people skiing and snowboarding through the years and I would have them put their hands in front of them about a foot apart and tell them they are holding the steering wheel, turn to the right to go right and turn left to go left, I know, sounds ridiculous, bit many times it also helped them to understand how important it is to start the turn as if they were driving their car...the Turn starts somewhere right, where does it start ? with the hips, the feet by loading the edge and flex and propelling into the next turn, the upper torso, all my experience across all 3 sports for me has always been the hands, I know that is a Style choice however...thanks so much for all the thoughts here, really appreciate your efforts to sort this out...

 

Cheers !!

Edited May 9, 2016 by softbootsailer

[RCrobar]

Edited June 3, 2016 by RCrobar

[Beckmann AG]

 

 

Much of this reads like you’re looking for outside affirmation to support your personal riding philosophy. 

And you’re either going, or have gone down the path of seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it.

If you think that your hands and arms will lead you through a series of turns, in relative isolation from the more direct and connected actions of the feet, then you’re simply kidding yourself.

Looking at surf/skate/Craig Kelly/your hero etc, without separating effect from affect is a fools errand.

 

Surf/skate/snowboard platforms appear to have many similarities, but the differences are often more important in terms of how and why one might maximize performance/flow/etc. 

Snowboards and skis, are, like capacitors in a circuit, energy storage media. 

Surf and skate decks are relatively inert.

These characteristics have direct bearing on how each might be moved as a base of support with regard to the center of mass in order to change direction, and how rapid that change might be.

And also on which limb segments might need to come into play to move the respective base of support. If you have a ‘dead’ platform, and want to change direction quickly, you need to involve a bunch of higher order contortions in order for all moving parts to ‘balance’.

Much like precision weighting of crankshaft throws and reciprocating parts of an engine. If mass X moves in this direction,  mass Y must move in that direction, so that mass Z remains stable in isolation.

Given the periodic nature of direction change, whatever goes one way must necessarily come back again, whether that movement is rotational, angular, linear, or some combination thereof.

 

The conehead skater will perforce flap with ferocity, while the longboarder will move with more casual deliberation. If each adopted the other’s outward appearance, the outcome would suffer.

 

At the higher levels of skiing, and riding, the center of mass can become the effective ‘base of support’, which is to say, all movements of the extremities act around, but do not directly ‘move’ or ‘propel’ the center. One does not ‘move’ the center, but, by altering the geometry at surface contact, ‘allow’ the center to move in a different direction.

In this scenario, the hands and arms are either mostly non-contributory additions to the upper body mass, or they are used to fine tune or compensate for minor errors at the ground level.

 

Much like the periodic twitch of a squirrel tail as the rodent proper leaps from branch to branch. 

 

Hand/arm position/activity is one of the favorite fixations within the snow teaching world, as it’s one of the easiest things to see, and also to try to change; with no regard for whether or not that activity is a cause, or more commonly an effect.

 

Outside of conscious stylistic choice (E.g., C.Kelly) people aren’t going to swing their arms about for no good reason. Unfortunately, the two standard choices are ‘excess movement’ (a judgement call) or ‘quiet’.

All too often, riders try to quiet their hands, without realizing that if all is right at the ground level, the hands will become both ‘quiet and relaxed’ by default, as opposed to ‘quiet and tight’ by design.

 

The difference is usually obvious, but only after one can see the forest for the trees.

Any excess tension in the hands and arms is a detriment, regardless of how it might look to the casual observer.

 

Science can be a bit of a bugger, but ultimately, how you choose to move has to square with how things really ‘work’ not just how we wish they would. So, either fake the flow, by way of stylistic arrangement, or be the flow, by harmonizing the system comprised of rider/board/surface.

[RCrobar]

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by RCrobar

[softbootsurfer]

thanks Beckmann

[west carven]

howdy

ride with your soul and not with your mind...

[Gabe T]

Here’s a video I came across in the past related to the topic of hands.    

 

 

 

For me, the emphasis on ‘hand over the nose’ referenced in the vid plays more of a role during turn initiation and edge transitions.   I find it helps with an early engagement of the edge while maximizing initial edge pressure.   I recall struggles with late heel side initiation in the past and I found this really helped me.   (Watching some of those Japanese carving vids helped me figure this out.)

 

I don’t find that my hands necessarily stay over the nose all the time though.   I don't quite “ ...park it there all the time no matter what ...   “ as the narrator suggests.   For the majority of my turns, my hands start to move to the side in the middle of the turn, coming back toward the board when setting up for the next turn.    As mentioned earlier, turn radius will factor into this as well; my hand will tend to stay over the nose more so when making quick tight turns.

 

I did chuckle a bit at some of the examples noted in the vid.    1:53,  Hand over the nose?  Hmm, sure looks like a double hand drag on a toe-side  : )  

 

 

At ses 2015, I saw Johnasmo ride a steep black run with both hands behind his back quite easily.
I've tried that (on a blue run) and it was more difficult than I thought. After that experience, if I'm using my hands too much it means my legs/balance is not optimum.

 

I saw some of John’s footage from his 2015 SES videos which inspired me to give it a try a couple of seasons ago.  Dug up the footage and put a couple of clips together.

 

 

It’s an interesting drill.  Without the aid of ones hands, you really need to concentrate on your core and torso positions being over the board, especially as the board tips up higher on edge.   On toe-side, my focus is on angulation at the waist and leveling the shoulders.   Can’t cheat with dropping the inside shoulder on a toe-side or you'll be eating some snow! : )   On heel-side, my main focus is on my leading shoulder just prior to initiation.  When my hands are free and moving over the nose preparing for a heel-side initiation, my leading shoulder follows with an inward rotation so that's the position I concentrate on replicating. 

[softbootsurfer]

Mr. Beckmann, if you have time, could you please go through the Sigi vid. above and point out what I seem to be missing with my eyes that show he doesn't lead with his hands or arms to get his Core to somewhere else...I have trouble with some of your terms and it would help if you could use that Vid. to show us, what is really going on...

 

Thanks and Thanks for your imput here as well...

 

https://youtu.be/N8__iRsxG_A

[b0ardski]

 

 

Much of this reads like you’re looking for outside affirmation to support your personal riding philosophy. 

And you’re either going, or have gone down the path of seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it.

If you think that your hands and arms will lead you through a series of turns, in relative isolation from the more direct and connected actions of the feet, then you’re simply kidding yourself.

Looking at surf/skate/Craig Kelly/your hero etc, without separating effect from affect is a fools errand.

 

Surf/skate/snowboard platforms appear to have many similarities, but the differences are often more important in terms of how and why one might maximize performance/flow/etc. 

Snowboards and skis, are, like capacitors in a circuit, energy storage media. 

Surf and skate decks are relatively inert.

These characteristics have direct bearing on how each might be moved as a base of support with regard to the center of mass in order to change direction, and how rapid that change might be.

And also on which limb segments might need to come into play to move the respective base of support. If you have a ‘dead’ platform, and want to change direction quickly, you need to involve a bunch of higher order contortions in order for all moving parts to ‘balance’.

Much like precision weighting of crankshaft throws and reciprocating parts of an engine. If mass X moves in this direction,  mass Y must move in that direction, so that mass Z remains stable in isolation.

Given the periodic nature of direction change, whatever goes one way must necessarily come back again, whether that movement is rotational, angular, linear, or some combination thereof.

 

The conehead skater will perforce flap with ferocity, while the longboarder will move with more casual deliberation. If each adopted the other’s outward appearance, the outcome would suffer.

 

At the higher levels of skiing, and riding, the center of mass can become the effective ‘base of support’, which is to say, all movements of the extremities act around, but do not directly ‘move’ or ‘propel’ the center. One does not ‘move’ the center, but, by altering the geometry at surface contact, ‘allow’ the center to move in a different direction.

In this scenario, the hands and arms are either mostly non-contributory additions to the upper body mass, or they are used to fine tune or compensate for minor errors at the ground level.

 

Much like the periodic twitch of a squirrel tail as the rodent proper leaps from branch to branch. 

 

Hand/arm position/activity is one of the favorite fixations within the snow teaching world, as it’s one of the easiest things to see, and also to try to change; with no regard for whether or not that activity is a cause, or more commonly an effect.

 

Outside of conscious stylistic choice (E.g., C.Kelly) people aren’t going to swing their arms about for no good reason. Unfortunately, the two standard choices are ‘excess movement’ (a judgement call) or ‘quiet’.

All too often, riders try to quiet their hands, without realizing that if all is right at the ground level, the hands will become both ‘quiet and relaxed’ by default, as opposed to ‘quiet and tight’ by design.

 

The difference is usually obvious, but only after one can see the forest for the trees.

Any excess tension in the hands and arms is a detriment, regardless of how it might look to the casual observer.

 

Science can be a bit of a bugger, but ultimately, how you choose to move has to square with how things really ‘work’ not just how we wish they would. So, either fake the flow, by way of stylistic arrangement, or be the flow, by harmonizing the system comprised of rider/board/surface.

At the higher levels of skiing, and riding, the center of mass can become the effective ‘base of support’, which is to say, all movements of the extremities act around, but do not directly ‘move’ or ‘propel’ the center.

I've got to express a caveat to this; I usually like to ride very "quitely" but when I throw my arm/s in a certain direction the center of mass tends to follow, somewhat, in the same direction(think in 3 dimensions here), arms up; unweight the edge, allowing flexion/retraction and redirection(again 3 dimensions) of the board under the COM like a scott schmidt jump turn in steep & deep;

arms down, actively downweights the edge, increasing pressure and tightening the radius, Shred's "bird of prey" initiation style exaggerates this.

The base (board/edge)and the center of mass constantly vary in distance and directional force against each other, except when holding a position thru a turn. ie

 

Hands high quiet position weight stacked

hands low, quiet position, weight stacked

 

here the hands are more actively leading the hip(closest joint to COM) in the desired direction

 

same here, with additional slope angle feedback thru the back hand

the hands don't matter riding quietly. but are very important when driving actively, you can't ski bumps well with hands behind the back.

 

 

 

howdy

ride with your soul and not with your mind...

I usually ride with both but often zen out

[Gabe T]

Mr. Beckmann, if you have time, could you please go through the Sigi vid. above and point out what I seem to be missing with my eyes that show he doesn't lead with his hands or arms to get his Core to somewhere else...I have trouble with some of your terms and it would help if you could use that Vid. to show us, what is really going on...

 

Thanks and Thanks for your imput here as well...

 

 

My interpretation of Beckmann’s comments was that the arms do not move in isolation and drive what the rest of your body does.  When you see Sigi’s hands move while carving, there are simultaneously movements in his core as well.  

Visually, the hand and arm movements are easier to detect.  Movements that occur in the core are more subtle.   If one can agree that movement in the core and hands/arms happen at the same time, then what is leading what?

In retrospect, a description of movements in my earlier post was probably poorly worded.   My core/shoulder positioning does not necessarily ‘follow’ my hands, which may be interpreted as isolated movements at different times, but the movements are happening in concert with one another.

[softbootsurfer]

Thanks Boardski, I get that Stacked thing...and really Skating on a 4x14 in piece of plywood with metal wheels showed me a long long time ago, what and how the Core works, Surfing provided major imput also of course, the Board only turns with applied force and ya da da da dah, It is my Skiing Gates and Moguls for years plus my snowboarding that has led me to assume wrongly I guess that my my hands have always led my Core, I am certainly not trying to change or approve or disprove someone elses technique or Style here, and as the thread intended, only to share what others here See the Role the Hands may play in their riding...this pic is a second or 2 before the one in post 51above, which you call stacked...really, we can all find shots like this during our transitions right? and we can all ride like this or with our hands behind our back All the Time OK, but I personally like to Dance with the anticipation for the next turn coming from the hands, and I am OK with that...

 

and thank you Gabe as well, certainly I can understand that maybe everything is happening at once...Thank You for your response too...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by softbootsailer

[heroshmero]

Beckman drops the knowledge once again. Thanks.

[Beckmann AG]

 

  I have noticed that a Japanese saw is thin and cuts under tension on the pull stroke.  I have also noticed that an American saw is thick and cuts under compression on the push stroke.  The point being that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, cut a board and also turn a lot of different boards.  

 

 

Similarly, I can feed a piece of work into a milling cutter either with or against the direction of rotation. There are dis/advantages to both, depending on what you’re after, and what you have to work with. Ultimately, in order to maximize the potential of the machine, thereby optimizing job performance, you need to understand the principles behind cutting metal. 

Otherwise, you make scrap and/or bleed.

Have you, by chance, read up on the reasons behind the two saw tooth configurations and blade gauges?

 

ride with your soul and not with your mind...

How quaint.

Are you suggesting that the likes of Hamilton or Slater have never undertaken a study of fluid dynamics?

Or are you just trying to be clever/dismissive?

[Beckmann AG]

 ...please go through the Sigi vid. above and point out what I seem to be missing with my eyes that show he doesn't lead with his hands or arms to get his Core to somewhere else...

imput here as well...

 

http://youtu.be/N8__iRsxG_A

 

Rather than dissect Sigi, I’d pose the following question:

If you have a lighter and heavier mass connected to each other, moving at the same velocity, how does the lighter mass move the heavier mass? 

 

For a very clear example of the heavy/light scenario, view a few minutes of BMX freestyle and Freestyle MX. In the former, the lighter bike moves relative to the flight path of the heavier rider. In the latter, the lighter rider moves relative to the heavier bike. 

Generally speaking, if you want to be more effective on the board, on the snow, you want to allow for sympathetic movements of the hands and arms, rather than trying to use those limb segments to move larger body parts that, based on their intertia, don't want to be 'moved'. This suggests a minimum of muscular tension, to the extent that the extremities can move if necessary, but are not constantly ‘tied’ to the upper body mass in a disruptive manner.

Take note of Sigi’s fingers. If he was in harmony with his movement, his fingers would not  be stretched as though palming a basketball. Obviously, he’s achieved a particular level of comfort in that context, and appears to be having a good time of it.

Make no mistake, though, his hands/arms are not directing his core. Assisting, probably. Moving, no.

 

Re: Baryshnikov;  

Mikhail operates on a consistent and level field of play.  The mountain, on the other hand, is, in microcosm, infinitely varied.

Rotational movements require an anchorage to initiate, as well as conclude.

Similarly, when he jumps, he propels with his legs while stabilizing with the arms. That the arms move first is simply effective timing within the big picture. Like so:

 

 

 

Given that snow is not always uniform, either in contour or density, it seems logical to craft your technique in a manner that is as surface independent as possible. Which suggests not swinging one’s hands about in a vain attempt to create movement. 

 

In order for the upper and lower body to be effectively ‘separated’, and for the board to follow an ideal path over the snow, there will be some rotational ‘freedom’ within both the pelvic region and lower spine. Active and passive rotation in this region might look similar, but they are quite different.

 

Try riding with a set of running/walking hand weights. Or carry a bundle of gates over your shoulder. The added mass should provide some distinct feedback on how rotational movements affect stability.

 

Also, if you want to embed from Youtube, just paste the url without the ’s’ on ‘https’.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lordmetroland]

This is interesting and everything, but seriously, my flow is like f****g Elvis Presley singing "A Little Less Conversation" to Ann-Marget while snowboarding down the Pyrenees chased by a guy named The Count in a snowcat.

[nigelc]

Oh lordmetroland. I need some of what you are taking. Lots of it. F***ing s**tloads.

[philw]

 

.... Which suggests not swinging one’s hands about in a vain attempt to create movement. 

..

 

Indeed: it's important not to confuse cause and effect.

 

In my view, if I turn, my hands may move, especially if I don't stop them doing it. It's an effect caused by the temporary movement of my centre of mass relative to the place the force is being applied through.

 

I can, alternatively, wave the things around willy nilly, for example if I see a girlfriend, or if the music in my ears is particularly good. That makes very little difference to a standard turn, and probably feels better than it looks. The reason is that the forces on the engaged edge of my board plus the momentum of my body mass are much larger than the mass of my hands irrespective of what I do with them. 

 

There's angular momentum too, but my standard turn isn't particularly rotational. No one's pulling their arms in and out like skaters do: angular momentum isn't significant compared to acceleration required to make the turn.

 

Cause. Effect. Lots of people find that challenging, but you don't actually need to understand the mechanics to separate the two, a little thought will do it.

[softbootsurfer]

Thanks Mr. Beckmann and anyone else poking around here...

 

 I assume then that the core could be just a 150 lb.12"dia. ball, rolling forward and back on the board, that could load the flex and lighten the flex and apply angulation by moving side to side, then we no need no Hands, Arms, Legs, Feet or Other Body Parts at all... 

Edited May 12, 2016 by softbootsailer

[Corey]

If you look at a tightrope walker, the stillness (or lack thereof) of their hands tells a lot about their ability/experience.  Frantic flailing usually indicates someone that's operating on the limits of their abilities.  

 

I imagine the same applies to snowboarding and many other sports.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you have a lighter and heavier mass connected to each other, moving at the same velocity, how does the lighter mass move the heavier mass? 

A lighter mass will have less effect on a heavier mass than the other way around, but it still has an effect.  Relationships between masses are not one-way just because one is heavier than the other.