An important message to all retailers.

[Troy.]

Recently I traveled up to Park City/ Canyons for nearly 2 weeks of snowboarding and except for nice powder days I rode my alpine board.  What I came to realize when taking to people my age (18) and a bit older is that nearly every experienced snowboarder AND skier wants to try alpine snowboarding.  And I am not exaggerating when I say around 50 people told me this.  But getting into alpine is too much money for them, or any of their friends, to go out on a limb and buy the expensive alpine snowboarding gear.  Many of them also said that they would most likely buy one if they could ride it first.  

 

Here I have 2 suggestions.  

 

First, get your gear on a rental shop on most large mountains and advertise this.  Even a few banners and flyers on street poles mixed with a sale is all you need.  Also use shorter alpine boards so there is more room for error.  

 

Second, actually travel to multiple mountains for half a weak to a week with a pop-up tent, music, display boards, and an option to rent/ buy boards.   Also advertise this like above.  

 

That is all of my input here.  I know I have many fellow snowboarders who would love to ride one of these boards and personally I feel like these options above may be worth a try.  

[lowrider]

 Direct your friends and acquaintances to this forum. Check out the gear to loan posts as some members  have lots of gear and are willing to share. They could also make a request for local help most of us are quite willing to help with gear or instruction.  The most dramatic difference is boots and bindings so even switching to these on their boards will give a pretty good introduction. Used boots and bindings won't break the bank and can always be resold on this forum .  SkoonyMcgroomers $55 TD1's are a good start grab them and pass them on

Edited January 14, 2016 by lowrider

[Tugboater]

Yeah boots seem to be the main sticking point. They can even try changing their binding angles on their normal setup just to get a taste.

[Troy.]

 Direct your friends and acquaintances to this forum. Check out the gear to loan posts as some members  have lots of gear and are willing to share. They could also make a request for local help most of us are quite willing to help with gear or instruction.  The most dramatic difference is boots and bindings so even switching to these on their boards will give a pretty good introduction. Used boots and bindings won't break the bank and can always be resold on this forum .  SkoonyMcgroomers $55 TD1's are a good start grab them and pass them on

 

I have directed them here. But just think about it for a second, most of the guys I talked to don't make a lot of money.  Most wont drop $600-$800 on used gear if they don't even know if they like it; if they even go through the effort of making an account, going to the classifieds, doing research, haggling with people, possibly slow communication, etc.  Same thing with loaning gear.  

 

It puts the potential customer at an inconvenience, that is the bottom line.  I do not see how it could be too much work to have at least one shop at most major resorts to have one shelf of alpine snowboards.  They could even brand it as a race or speed or slalom board to get peoples attention who may not know what an alpine snowboard is and brand it as a specialty board.    

[b0ardski]

Think about it for longer than a second, I'm not usually the devils advocate but this aint no taco stand grasshopper.

Alpine gear was in lots of shops before you were born and proved unprofitable. The expense of even a limited size range of gear, boots, binders, boards, is a bit beyond a van, a tent and a stereo.

If only I'd bought that powerball ticket

Getting permission & liability to even be at the resort are obstacles we've hit before at N.I.C.E.

The know how to setup a newbie is another can of worms. The +15/-15 stance coming out of rental shops is a disservice to`the sport and the public.

 

You don't have to spend 100s of $$ to try alpine, turn that backwards foot forward loose the toe drag, face the direction of travel and get that "soft" board on edge.

I'm a po'boy too; recycling used gear(buy/try/sell) is the best/only option most of us have. There have been other threads discussing this very topic here over the years, and Donek does make an entry level board, but the real issue is knowledge, that's why we are on BOL.

 

Does anybody try any new sport w/out looking at it online 1st in this century??

Edited January 14, 2016 by b0ardski

[Allee]

But just think about it for a second, most of the guys I talked to don't make a lot of money.  Most wont drop $600-$800 on used gear if they don't even know if they like it.

 

... but a retailer should drop a bomb on the same gear, on the off chance that you'll be interested enough to rent it? News flash - they're there to make money, not just for your "convenience". And as b0ardski pointed out, it's well documented that there's no money in alpine boards.

 

If you decided to take up car racing, would you complain that nobody was going to rent you a racecar, because car racing is expensive and you're not sure you'll like it? If you want it bad enough, you'll get after it. There's always people willing to loan you gear and teach you the basics, all you have to do is ask, and possibly make an effort to get yourself to another resort to do it. That's how all of us started out. So don't whine that it's not falling in your lap.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Allee

[lordmetroland]

If only I'd bought that powerball ticket

 

You'd have less money than you do today.

 

Not to go all pointy-headed here, but there are significant barriers-to-entry for both individuals and retailers in alpine snowboarding.

 

I'd love to hear from the manufacturers (since the number of "retailers" who frequent this space may be approaching zero). Bomber recently held a demo day at Loveland. It would be interesting to know roughly what percentage of people "showed interest" but didn't demo? What percentage of people who demo'd were the usual suspects or, at least, experienced hardbooters? It seems to me that interest+availability significantly overpredicts the number of people who actually try alpine snowboarding. There's a missing variable here.

[BlueB]

Hi Troy (OP)!

I hear your sentiment.

 

Me and few other local riders here, have garages that resamble small snowboard shops, with possibly every size and type of alpine board available. Over the years, I had similar kind of conversations with so many people, who expressed willngness to try. However, the numebr of people that actually have tried, I could almost count on my fingers... I teach at the local mountain and it took me nearly a decade just to convince them that hard boots are acceptable footware for teaching. I've generated an extra income for the mountain, that otherwise wouldn't be there. Yet, the mountain hardly ever did any efforts to promote my side of the business, except allowing me to place a letter sized poster by the lessons desk.

 

Demo tent, as nice as it sounds, would be very hard to get approved by the mountain (liabillity). It also could harm the sport if people went up without previous knowledge, completely adjusted stance and propper guidance/instruction. It could result in a poor experience and further badmouthing of our sport.

 

But, we keep being the ambasadors, promoting on low key basis and providing the best locally available instruction...

 

Anyways, keep us posted how your efforts go. It's always nice to hear about another very enthusiastic rider!

[Allee]

Bomber recently held a demo day at Loveland. It would be interesting to know roughly what percentage of people "showed interest" but didn't demo? What percentage of people who demo'd were the usual suspects or, at least, experienced hardbooters? It seems to me that interest+availability significantly overpredicts the number of people who actually try alpine snowboarding. There's a missing variable here.

 

Angie or Jim could chime in here, but at the SES's I went to, with all the gear, and 60 boards available to try out, I suspect they got maybe half a dozen, non session people a day who would take gear out? Or maybe not even that many?

[philw]

... It puts the potential customer at an inconvenience, that is the bottom line.  I do not see how it could be too much work to have at least one shop at most major resorts to have one shelf of alpine snowboards. ..

 

If you really believe that, then you can just borrow some cash (rates are really low at this time), and set yourself up in a shop. If your judgement is correct, you'll soon be laughing.

 

Seriously, the world doesn't work the way you think it does. If you did have the cash to go into retail, I fear that you soon wouldn't ;-)

[michael.a]

An excellent comparative parrabel is the kitesurfing/windsurfing paradigm.

[big mario]

You'd have less money than you do today.

 

Not to go all pointy-headed here, but there are significant barriers-to-entry for both individuals and retailers in alpine snowboarding.

 

I'd love to hear from the manufacturers (since the number of "retailers" who frequent this space may be approaching zero). Bomber recently held a demo day at Loveland. It would be interesting to know roughly what percentage of people "showed interest" but didn't demo? What percentage of people who demo'd were the usual suspects or, at least, experienced hardbooters? It seems to me that interest+availability significantly overpredicts the number of people who actually try alpine snowboarding. There's a missing variable here.

At one point they had 8 complete setups out on the hill and a few more people in the tent getting set up, as well two or three guys out trying different boards, and a boatload of inquisitive passers by

 

To Troy,

When I first started out, I didn't know about bomber, I went to ebay and spent about 3-400 bucks on a setup that I quickly out grew, and later sold off to others wanting to get into the sport. Like carving a turn, you just need to commit.  You have access to an incredible resource at your fingertips right here on bomber, and many of us are willing to share gear, time and knowledge to get more people into the sport if they are truly interested in trying it, it just takes a little more effort on(your) their part

Edited January 15, 2016 by big mario

[Beckmann AG]

Troy,

It may not seem like it, but your enthusiasm is appreciated. Your suggestions though, were appropriate for the early/mid '90's.

 

 

most of the guys I talked to don't make a lot of money

 

Then there is no place in the market for them.

The cold reality is that the 'ski' industry is driven not so much by a desire to provide opportunity to the enthusiastic, but by the desire to extract as much money as possible from a shrinking pool of wallets. This leaves little room for your largely altruistic proposals.

 

Like a few others, I have a decent batch of lend/lease equipment, and also the opportunity, expertise, and time to help interested parties get started.

Seldom, if ever, does anyone take me up on the offer.

 

When you have no overhead and can't give a product away for free, there's no point in tooling up for retail.

 

Riding alpine is not for the dilettante. If the 'interested' can't be bothered to find gear and make contacts, then the sport, and all it involves, simply isn't a good match for their tendencies.

[Guest]

Troy-

 

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for posting.  Your enthusiasm is awesome, and all of us here share your stoke for this addictive sport we all love. As the new guy and gal at the helm of Bomber, Angie and I are committed to growing alpine snowboarding.  

 

The problem is, it isn't as easy as one would like to believe it is.  Your quote: "First, get your gear on a rental shop on most large mountains and advertise this.  Even a few banners and flyers on street poles mixed with a sale is all you need."  As other members have alluded, many shops did have alpine gear to demo.  It collected dust and took up space for gear that did sell.  Getting the new, comfy, accessible gear onto shelves is a massive hurdle with a chicken and the egg relationship: stores aren't going to carry gear unless there is a demand for it, and there's not going to be a demand for the gear unless stores are carrying it and it's visible.  

 

Many people know alpine snowboarding as a thing of the past, suitable only for racers and those with tree trunks for legs.  They aren't aware how approachable, comfortable and forgiving the modern equipment is/can be.  We're working on changing that perception, trust me, but it is not something that happens overnight, not unless one has boatloads of cash sitting around.  

 

The best thing that can be done for now is to spread the stoke.  Order some Bomber cards and hand them out.  We even have a fancy new design!  As we work on our outreach/marketing/media, word will spread.  That's all we can do for now.

 

Again, thanks for the post, and let's all think snow!

[AcousticBoarder]

Agreed, it is a great idea, I would love to be able to rent gear locally too just to try out different things, encourage others to try, or going on a trip, but as others have said, it is not so simple unfortunately. A couple boards and bindings would not take up too much space, but when you include boots it becomes even more difficult. Even if rental places did stock minimal equipment, it would likely collect dust without some kind of demand for it, taking up what is often times very valuable space for items that do make money. Most shops I have been in there is literally gear in every inch of space possible.

 

Good news, I have noticed more snowboarders making some good carves, even if they are in soft boots. One of our newer members Ryan is likely very influential with his youtube videos he does as well - all soft boots, lots of buttering and other freestyle tricks, but a large basis in carving. Even today going up the lift I thought there was another hardbooter on the mountain until I saw that it was a very impressive soft booter. Never got a chance to run into him/her and give them a card.

 

The best thing to do is just engage where we can, and point interested parties in the right direction. After that, it is up to them whether they want to jump in.

[b0ardski]

welcome to BOL Troy, great 1st thread

 

sorry if I/we came of a bit harsh,  25yrs in hardboots  trying to convince peeps that plates are a superior connection to the board and thereby the snow surface,  and that boots can be made to flex any way you want, has left me jaded.

Edited January 15, 2016 by b0ardski

[lowrider]

 Burton and Sims pulled the plug on Hardbooting and we're still hearing the sucking sound ! 

[pmorita]

Not sure if the problem is really the lack of equipment in shops that is holding back the growth of carving.  I saw a parallel with windsurfing from working in a couple of surf shops for a dozen years.  It's not intuitive enough to just put on some boots, strap in and carve up the mountain.  The missing piece is the lack of instruction.  I love hearing about Burton's woman's clinics and other workshops to get people into snowboarding in general.  As with windsurfing, a three day workshop or even one day intro clinics, where everything from equipment to lunch being provided, typically hooked people and spread the word.  

Troy, I'm sure you looked pretty amazing and carved big trenches if you were riding for two weeks straight, which caused a lot of envy.  My fear is that those same people, if you just suited them up and put them on the bunny slope, would have a bad experience.  

I'm with you that shops need to make it easier with rentals and some selection.  Without some instruction, or even our little community showing people the basics, it's going to be rough.  My proposal, let's have a newbie clinic at SES and ECES, or promote those Pure Boarding clinics a bit more.  I would love to see more hard booters on the mountain, but not if they are sliding down on their butts or throwing their boards in the woods in disgust.

[Donek]

Troy-

 

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for posting.  Your enthusiasm is awesome, and all of us here share your stoke for this addictive sport we all love. As the new guy and gal at the helm of Bomber, Angie and I are committed to growing alpine snowboarding.  

 

The problem is, it isn't as easy as one would like to believe it is.  Your quote: "First, get your gear on a rental shop on most large mountains and advertise this.  Even a few banners and flyers on street poles mixed with a sale is all you need."  As other members have alluded, many shops did have alpine gear to demo.  It collected dust and took up space for gear that did sell.  Getting the new, comfy, accessible gear onto shelves is a massive hurdle with a chicken and the egg relationship: stores aren't going to carry gear unless there is a demand for it, and there's not going to be a demand for the gear unless stores are carrying it and it's visible.  

 

Many people know alpine snowboarding as a thing of the past, suitable only for racers and those with tree trunks for legs.  They aren't aware how approachable, comfortable and forgiving the modern equipment is/can be.  We're working on changing that perception, trust me, but it is not something that happens overnight, not unless one has boatloads of cash sitting around.  

 

The best thing that can be done for now is to spread the stoke.  Order some Bomber cards and hand them out.  We even have a fancy new design!  As we work on our outreach/marketing/media, word will spread.  That's all we can do for now.

 

Again, thanks for the post, and let's all think snow!

I think Jim failed to mention that they are getting out on the hill every other week and running on snow demos for anyone to try hard booting.  Become familiar with the demo schedule and encourage people to take advantage of those events.

[philw]

...My fear is that those same people, if you just suited them up and put them on the bunny slope, would have a bad experience.  ...

 

I think that sums up the 1990s.

 

Here in Europe, where you can still buy the gear in some ordinary shops, those of us riding in the early days were already mostly expert skiers. None of us were phased by a little learning curve: it was supposed to be hard, that's why we did it. At that time the trick snowboarding gear from America (Burton) was the expensive stuff. European boards seemed better suited to what most of us rode (hard packed piste), with metal edges and even well engineered bindings.

 

In the 1990s, the sport grew massively. The new people weren't mostly experts, they were holiday makers. Those new people worked out that soft trick gear was easier to be bad on than those big stiff race boards. The punters figured it out, then Jake and everyone else cottoned on, and it's been that way ever since.

 

The demise of most (but not all) race gear retail was an effect, not a cause. It's business, not even "snow business", just business.

 

---

I ride a track bicycle to work because it's the fastest thing I've ever owned and it's beautiful. Most people ride mountain bikes because they are easier to ride without any skill. My bike will eat you if you're not careful. I'm not like most people, and neither are people who ride race boards.

I think that the path to enlightenment involves recognizing that and relaxing about it. There's nothing wrong with being the fastest snowboarder around. Most holiday snowboarders are happy with their soft boots, like most skiers pottering about with their stem turns.

 

If you're like those Japanese guys carving the **** out of their soft boots (see video section), then you'll probably end up riding some metal board with hard boots, and I don't think the fact that the local Wal-Mart doesn't stock the gear will stop you.

[icebiker]

 If you want it bad enough, you'll get after it. 

 

Troy, great enthusiasm...that's what keeps our niche sport alive.  

 

I think Allee hit the nail on the head.  Those who really want to give it a go will find a way to do so, starting with carving on their soft equipment. If they feel a sufficient stoke and get proficient at it in softies, the transition to alpine will not be as difficult and it's communities like BOL that can help get them further along with advice and/or new/used equipment.  

 

I once had an instructor on softies ask me for advice in the lift line.  I gave him a few pointers on binding angles and getting on edge.  He emailed me a few days later and said both he and his young son were hooked and would be exploring a hard set up next. 

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

Riding under the lift is the best thing any of us can do to promote the sport.