My experiences with boot stiffness

[Puddy Tat]

I find that when many people, myself included, switch to hard boots they end up looking for the "stiffest boot possible". Because of this I thought I'd share my experiences with hardboot stiffness. As a caveat this thread is written from the perspective of free carving only and has nothing to do with racing.

Here's some background on me. For boot experience, I've ridden Raichle 121s (early 90s), and more recently UPZ RTRs, Deeluxe 225Ts, UPZ ATBs, and UPZ RC10s. The only current boots I use are the RC10s for free carving and the ATBs for all-mountain ripping. For bindings I ride TD3 step-ins with fintec heels for all applications, with either a blue (carving) or yellow (AM) elastomer. I'm 6'2" and weigh somewhere between 210-230 lbs depending on whether it is before or after christmas. I occasionally ride on the enlarged moguls around Edmonton, but more often find myself out round Banff riding AM or carving Sunshine, and Nakiska. So I'm essentially a West Coast carver who might or might not know what firm cord was until it bit him in the @ss. :-)

When I came back to snowboarding in 2007 and started looking at carving again, I did the the same thing I've heard three of my friends say. I need the stiffest boot possible to get the best edge hold possible. I actually went so far as to call up Fin at Bomber and talk to him about getting the stiffest boot they had. At the time he actually mentioned that for carving a shift was beginning away from really stiff boots. I chose to ignore this advice and chose to purchase a set of UPZ RTRs. I then stiffened these up by going to the grey (140 MPI) tongues. While carving at local bumps in the city I thought "I'm carving great. Life is fantastic, I am the awesomest carver ever."

After a season of riding like this I showed up, and was showed up, at NES. There was 21cm of fresh and large soft mogully chop everywhere. I was getting thrown all over the place because my setup was so stiff. Meanwhile Corey, Riceball, and others were railing all over the place and cutting directly through all of this, like the runs were flat groom. This was so frustrating to me I went home after the weekend and debated giving up the carving and going back to soft boots. Instead I thought about the equipment I saw being used. Most people who were railing the snot out of this chop on the steepest runs at Nakiska were on TD3s, so that wasn't the issue, there wasn't a huge difference in board technology as I was riding a Coiler Schtubby, and many people were riding UPZs. There didn't seem to be much of an equipment difference but I did notice that none of them were using the stiff grey tongue and many people actually had switched from the stiff flo race liner to a softer thermo liner.

Rather than give up hard booting and carving I gave up my soft boot set-up. I then softened my UPZ RTRs, I swapped the tongues in my boots back to their original black tongue and ordered a set of thermoflex liners. This substantially softened the boot along the longitudinal (toe-to-heel) axis, but didn't have much effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness. I immediately noticed a difference in my carving, suddenly I wasn't being locked into position by the boots. I was freer to shift my weight along the board, but I hadn't actually lost any edging ability. In fact my edging ability had increased due to my new ability to better position myself on the board.

Three years, and technique improvements, later I upgraded my RTRs to RC10s. I again switched the stock Flo liners out for the Deeluxe 141s liners I was running in the RTRs. My initial thought was this is never going to work, as when I was standing in them I could lean into the cuff and flex the boot forward without any difficultly. The lateral stiffness was still there, there just seemed to be so little longitudinal stiffness. However when I first got a chance to ride in them I was again blown away. I had no problem ripping turns, and my ability to absorb chop and inconsistencies in the snow had taken a huge leap.

Just yesterday, I had probably one of the best days I've ever had riding. UPZ RC10s on a Coiler Schtubby. It was hard bulletproof, scraped areas, with hard board length bumps, some groom, and soft piles of snow. I literally railed over, around, and through everything. This includes coming off minor drops (2' rollers) and railing immediately into a turn. I This was some of the hardest carving I've done on some of the most variable surfaces I've encountered and I was railing at speed through everything on the softest "carve rated" boot I've ever been in. In my opinion the ability to suck up crap, shift your weight around, and, effectively cut through the variable surfaces that we encounter free carving requires a boot that is longitudinally soft, and yet laterally stiff.

Again I'm writing this as most people I run into are trying to stiffen their boots. Another friend was in Burton Winds which he had cranked the springs down to make them as stiff as possible. Last season he picked up a set of RC10s. His comment on trying them was that he didn't think they were going to work at all for carving as they were too soft. After day one on the hill he was stunned at the immediate difference in his riding and said "I've been going the wrong way with my boots for years." Apparently Fin was also right when I was talking to him about boot stiffness about five years ago. :-)

Dave

Edited January 27, 2014 by Puddy Tat
Clarification of Location and type of Snow.

[WEBSIGHT360]

What a great post. I have been on the fence about trying a thermo liner in my UPZ's. What size are your UPZ's, and what size of Deeluxe 141 thermo liner did you end up putting in your boots? Thanks!

[Puddy Tat]

What a great post. I have been on the fence about trying a thermo liner in my UPZ's. What size are your UPZ's, and what size of Deeluxe 141 thermo liner did you end up putting in your boots? Thanks!

Thanks for the props:cool:.

I use a mondo 28 UPZ boot (RTR, RC10, and ATBs) and use mondo 28 Deeluxe 141 liners in them. As an aside after popping in the liners a few of the spots that I'd previously had widened on the boots had to be pushed out again because the thermos have a bit more volume than the Flos. I'm not sure everyone has to have that done, my feet are pretty screwed up. I think most people can just get away with heat molding.

Dave

[lonbordin]

I’m posting a corollary to Puddy Tat’s not to be argumentative but to provide a different perspective.

Some important notes: I’m 195 cm and 111 kg, so I'm that much bigger than Dave but my name is Dave as well, as is anyone whom may be referred to as “cool”. :D

I currently ride DeeLuxe Indy’s with the race tongues, Booster straps and BTS with the red springs fairly tight. I’m running typically 54/51 in respect to binding angles. Also I race more than free carve. I spend the majority of my time on a 185 Donek REV with a Bomber 4mm plate. I have more of a Bomber style than an EC style.

When I had the Indy’s with the stock RAB setup I was getting so much bottoming out (especially on my rear foot) that it was painful. Since I upgraded to the BTS with the red springs. life was that much better.

I find that having a stiffer boot pays big dividends in response in the race course and I’m able to push my toe-sides that much harder without the boot painfully bottoming out.

I ride on Mid-West ice/man-made snow and have no idea what 21cm of fresh looks like.

I’ve PM’d Dave to buy his stiff tongues. :p

[Mike T]

I definitely preferred softer boots such as the old Raichle 423's in free ride mode before I had figured out my stance. Once I got my stance dialed, I started liking my boots stiffer. Red/white/black Track 700's with red BTS springs now. 5'10", 175 pounds. They don't "feel stiff" when I'm riding, and I never feel limited in terms of movement.

It took me years, and an x-ray that demonstrated that my right/back leg is 11mm shorter than my left/front, to get my stance dialed...

[Puddy Tat]

As usual around here YMMV.

While I've heard good things about it, and I've both mounted it on my daughter's boots and suggested it to other people; being in UPZs I've never tried the Bomber BTS. The season I had in the Track 225Ts I used them purely for AM riding and then switched to the ATBs as the wide toe and narrow heeled UPZs fit my screwed up feet better. However like the UPZ spring system I'm guessing that BTS provides more, and more consistent, flex than just trying to flex the plastic of the shell. I'd suggest even the red springs are softer than a boot locked in a position. If it didn't allow such flex why install it (beyond trying to compensate for the variable temperature characteristics of the plastic that is)?

Like I say I've never raced, so I can't relate any of what I'm saying to a racing perspective. In fact many high level racers (Mike Trapp, etc...) appear to be wearing ski boots (although they are mounted on isolation plates). This would appear to be counter to what I'm mentioning in my opening post.

Dave I get where you are coming from with your size and weight, flexing a locked boot at the ankle would cause ankle pain as the shell deformed. I believe this occurred once or twice to me with the Deeluxe 225Ts. All in all I'd bet most boots actually feel "softer" to you.

Dave

[Neil Gendzwill]

I ride an old pair of 224s that are stiffened up somewhat by some Red thermo liners. It is still a pretty soft setup, made softer due to the F2 stepins I use. I don't race but I do clip along at a good pace and that included some cruising through chopped-up pow at NES this year and SES last. I have never felt the need for a stiffer boot. No BTS though, and I keep them locked. When I've inadvertently left them in walk mode I didn't like it at all.

[kipstar]

I did a little training for the first time in many years, and I've also gone from stiff set up a few years ago to a much softer set up (indys with the std BTS system).

When you see racers riding what appears to be stiff boots, it's worth bearing in mind that they attack the course with maximum load through the fall line (not after it as we carvers often tend to do) and they often have a LOT more leg strength than us mere mortals, so I am guessing what is medium flex to them can be pretty stiff for some of us.

I would definitely agree that getting the forward flex right (and I must confess the indys don't fit my foot that well so its a struggle) with a locked in heel is key to being able to really drive from a solid neutral position. The more power you have in your calves, the more you can use your leg strength rather than boot stiffness but at some point, the boot needs to support you in turns.

[Maxlanaudiere]

I too have gone the softer path and love the feeling. With my head boots starting to crack here and there (stop drill for the win!) I'm looking at the UPZ line up and this thread as me thinking: why not go with the RC8 ?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Maxlanaudiere

[Aracan]

I went from Deeluxe Indy to RC8. What I like most is the fit. What I miss most is the BTS (yellow springs), that nicely softened up the Indys which were far too stiff with the original RAB (I am about 6' and weigh between 155 and 160 lbs).

The UPZ system does have springs for both directions, but they are far shorter and noticeably stiffer than the yellow BTS springs.

However, I found that the red (soft) tongues mostly compensate for that.

[Zone]

I think this ties in nicely with the Northwave thread.

I have been using the Swoard.com Northwave settings since they first mentioned it, mod my Northwave to soft liners and the really soft Raichle black tongue (which does not stiffen up with temperature change, the original tongue was very stiff for my weight below 10C) and use really soft springs to adjust for my 140lbs.

You get major controlled forward flex and no lateral flex.

It feels a lot more like free flowing surfing/long boarding than locked in carving.

[Puddy Tat]

... When you see racers riding what appears to be stiff boots, it's worth bearing in mind that they attack the course with maximum load through the fall line (not after it as we carvers often tend to do) and they often have a LOT more leg strength than us mere mortals, so I am guessing what is medium flex to them can be pretty stiff for some of us.

That makes alot of sense. Given that a racer doesn't 'C' their turns the same way a freecarver does, and hence ends up running at much higher speeds, a stiffer boot would actually feel quite soft when heavily loaded in a turn.

... You get major controlled forward flex and no lateral flex.

It feels a lot more like free flowing surfing/long boarding than locked in carving.

Yeah this is what I was trying to say. I'm not talking about a free flexing boot. We need some forward stiffness in order to allow you to transfer your weight to the nose of the board. However a softer "controlled" flex really gives that surfy feeling, and provides a range of movement to the ankle joint that allows absorption of irregularities and inconsistencies in the snow.

Dave

[Jack M]

There is a happy medium for everyone. I can say from experience that I prefer red (stiff) BTS springs over the blue (medium) springs on my T700s, but last weekend I tried ski boots for the first time in many years. I couldn't carve.

I did have an experience somewhat similar to yours once many years ago when I forgot to put my then Burton Fires in ride mode and left them in walk mode. I basically fell forward, and into a better carving position.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Jack Michaud

[Bobby Buggs]

I dont race nor plan to but I love to be able to flex my boots. Im already wrecking the instep buckle on my 2013-14 UPZs, buckles hitting from riding in walk mode. For me it compensates for my blessing of horrible flexibility. Im quite happy with the fit and ride of the UPZ so far.

http://i40.tinypic.com/iz0txe.jpg

[neanderthal]

I am coming from some old Raichle flexons but this year picked up RC10s. The 5way system didnt seem to have the same range I was used to and my ski boots had no spring system. Made the change to a spring system from Arnaud off the extreemcarving forum and now have much smoother movement over a large range. It isnt as polished as the Bomber spring system but it works with the boots that fit my feet. Next up are new softer liners and tongue. That and a prayer for resurected northwaves!

as a fat old man (5'7" 200lb) I have no aspiration for racing and am moving on to freecarve which seems to want softer. Controlled flex with a spring system makes more sense than a softer shell at least at my weight

[SunSurfer]

I've come to the conclusion that for me I need my front and rear boots to be set up differently.

The front relatively limited in forward/back motion, and the back with much more movement available.

Both boots need lateral stiffness to drive the edge into the snow, but for me to move my weight up and down, while remaining balanced over my feet and the middle of the board I need to move my lower legs differently.

Above, I am in the at rest position, a slight bias of weight to over my front foot, standing upright with a degree of heel raise on my rear foot. My normal stance is about 50cm C-to-C and my feet are just under 30cm long.

The white lines join dots I have drawn as fixed markers on both my lower legs to give reference points.

Next picture shows me crouched down with my weight balanced and centred over the board, with roughly the same weight bias to the front foot. The angle between the initial white lines and the new ones is around 30 degrees for the rear, and 17 degrees for the front.

Last picture shows me now crouching but also leaning forward. I am now unbalanced, with my weight over, and forward of, my front foot. I am putting tension on my lower back. But only now do the angles of movement for front and back match at just over 30 degrees.

Some riders will say they really put weight on the nose to initiate their turns. They may well feel that the third picture represents how they initiate their turns.

For me, I try to remain balanced over my feet, with my centre of gravity always within the span of the two balls of my feet. I heavily weight the edges to commence my turns, not the nose.

If you watch the Vimeo video on how I've modified my Head Stratos Pros you will see that the two boots are setup to move quite differently. This does indeed show the range of movement possible, but it's also the actual way I have set up my front and rear boots. It works for me.

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/54657654" webkitallowfullscreen="" mozallowfullscreen="" allowfullscreen="" width="500" frameborder="0" height="281"></iframe> Head Stratos Pro Mods from Alan McKenzie on Vimeo.

So then, having both boots as loose as the rear wouldn't allow me to put adequate pressure on my front foot without becoming seriously over balanced to the front.

Having both boots as tight as the front wouldn't allow me to get down as low, I'd either have to stop or bend up the rear of the board to get enough forward inclination.

Having different stiffnesses, rear loose, front stiff, allows me to do both.

Edited January 28, 2014 by SunSurfer

[pogokoenig]

Some very good posts. Fully agree with Puddy Tat's opening post. This does also tie in very nicely with the skiboots on a snowboard thread -only there people are of a different opinion. Of course on a race course or in Colorado conditions overstiffs setup might work. But: isn't it part of the fun to have some freedom in your movements - to vary techniques, styles and conditions?

Sunsurfer: Very interesting pictures. Your conclusion seems to work for you. Would be interesting to see with different foot angles.

I am huge friend of flexible setups combined with a strong muscular basis that can provide stiffness whenever needed (rather than just stiffen up the setup and let it do the work.)

[SunSurfer]

^Give it a go. Generally speaking, the rear boot should have more flex than the front.

from a current thread about BTS setups.

I'm not the only person who thinks the front and rear boots should be different stiffnesses.

[Aracan]

from a current thread about BTS setups.

I'm not the only person who thinks the front and rear boots should be different stiffnesses.

In my opinion, the rear foot needs more flex than the front foot. That does not necessarily mean the front boot needs to be stiffer. Usually, I think, the front foot can handle the added (unused) flex just fine.

[Keyser Soze]

I think this ties in nicely with the Northwave thread.

I have been using the Swoard.com Northwave settings since they first mentioned it, mod my Northwave to soft liners and the really soft Raichle black tongue (which does not stiffen up with temperature change, the original tongue was very stiff for my weight below 10C) and use really soft springs to adjust for my 140lbs.

You get major controlled forward flex and no lateral flex.

It feels a lot more like free flowing surfing/long boarding than locked in carving.

Link to said thread?

[terekhov]

"snowboarding is a foot sport, not leg sport" © unknown wise man

[b0ardski]

Great example Sunsurfer!

"For me, I try to remain balanced over my feet, with my centre of gravity always within the span of the two balls of my feet. I heavily weight the edges to commence my turns, not the nose."

"So then, having both boots as loose as the rear wouldn't allow me to put adequate pressure on my front foot without becoming seriously over balanced to the front.

Having both boots as tight as the front wouldn't allow me to get down as low, I'd either have to stop or bend up the rear of the board to get enough forward inclination.

Having different stiffnesses, rear loose, front stiff, allows me to do both."

I usually ride with the front buckles a bit tighter & rear boot (Raichle 324) in walk mode in bumps, trees & pow and only lock the back boot when hard carving on clean/ridgeless groom. I love my 5 position lean mech; set more aggressive for carving hard 3 front 1or2 back, and more upright 4 or 5 front loose in back when just cruising tired or in pow & bumps.

If I know it's powder all day I'll use 3 buckle 124s, soft tongue so way surfier than the 324s.

would very much miss adjusting on a whim & walk mode w/BTS.

Edited February 4, 2014 by b0ardski

[Zone]

Link to said thread?

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2701

further links under 'tuning' subsection, and if you read french, some good discussion in the French sub-forum also.

[BlueB]

I didn't quite go through everything in this thread, but interesting topic.

I rode with Bts for years, then end of last year wnt without again. Prefer it that way for carving, as long as the stance, angle, lifts are set right. Bts is better freeriding/pow and teaching.

Sunsurfer, there are lots of problems with your pics, but can't address them now...

[Keyser Soze]

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2701

further links under 'tuning' subsection, and if you read french, some good discussion in the French sub-forum also.

Ahhh, thank you, sir!