RideGuy Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Actually this is my worst nightmare, not for me running into a child but someone running into my 10 year old daughter who I just taught her to carve HB this year. She's all of 72 lbs and would definately get the worse end of any collision like this. I'm constantly harping on checking the trail, wait until it is clear, but anyone with kids, or who was a kid once, knows just how well they listen to advice from their parents.Cheers, Dave My 6 year old daughter got taken out on Saturday. These idiots were jumping from one trail to another just before they merged. Completely blind into our trail. He landed just beside my daughter fell and slid into her. Total yard sale. She was ok, just more scared than anything. These guys were not punk kids, they were grown men. I was actually pretty calm, and explained to them how dangerous their actions were, the need for a spotter (if they must jump in such a dumb spot) and where the park was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 A related video... See post #23, although that's rather a different case - it's a head-on collision between two people. I don't think this is at all similar to the OP's video. The snowboarder only looked behind once, not when you'd expect him to (he joins the road without checking it), and not when he was dropping in. He wasn't looking where he was going until the collision was inevitable. He took no evasive action. The skier presumably also didn't make any indication of dropping in, and like his mate he can't have checked if someone else was there. He makes no attempt to avoid the collision, presumably because he wasn't looking where he was going either! If you don't look where you're going then it's almost inevitable that you get hurt, nothing "accidental" about it. This one does remind me why I look behind - these people are out there, looking for someone to ride into with their body armor and helmets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSXRSteve Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm brand new to the list so I won't make an judgement calls on what's right or wrong, acceptable or not acceptable but I can see very easily how the accident happened, wide open trail, no one around, board carving nicely, you get into flowing down the hill get lost in the moment, good idea to check six from time to time but hell I probably won't have looked back up hill myself in those conditions. I've done a few figure 11 runs over the years but I figure I get more bang for the buck if I make a some turns along the way. Glad the injuries were minor, no fun riding the sled to the bottom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Slow is better and boards with 11-12 scr's are just fine to carve at lower speeds and if you get hit it hurts allot less,my days of long boards with big scr's have long gone for me!Check out how many times Ben looks up hill in his vid,well i do it twice the times! A helmet with a camera on the back side of it that's connected with my mask would be an excellent gadget!!!!!! Or maybe a jacket like this: [ATTACH]29266[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc H Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 This thread is lame. Your gonna get hit no matter what. Just deal with it. I'm sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of Sally's. Who cares if you got hit. Just deal with it. There's no cure for it. Roll with the punches. Looking up hill Is only only gonna get you so far. Man up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Very interesting helmet! Thanks for the link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideGuy Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 This thread is lame. Your gonna get hit no matter what. Just deal with it. I'm sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of Sally's. Who cares if you got hit. Just deal with it. There's no cure for it. Roll with the punches. Looking up hill Is only only gonna get you so far. Man up Blinders on and just keep going. YAHOO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabestian Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Your gonna get hit no matter what. I have more than enough titanium in my face to know that. Full-face helmet, full body armour (including hokey pants), super-awareness mode fully on. With regards to helmet mounted mirrors, I think you mean www.bugeyes.com, I find them allright for road use but useless on the slope. You need lots of field of view coverage while boarding, they don't provide that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Just got back from SES. One of the great things is that Aspen is very uncrowded. On most runs I would stop at the top of a face, look behind & ahead of me and head down when the coast was clear. I think the biggest problem were young male skiers and boarders who wanted to "race". They would blow by straightlining wanting to prove how fast they could go. I'm not interesed in racing. If they would just watch me for a few seconds, they could see my pattern and easily avoid me if interested. They are the real hazard to others on the slope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 This thread is lame. Your gonna get hit no matter what. Just deal with it. I'm sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of Sally's. Who cares if you got hit. Just deal with it. There's no cure for it. Roll with the punches. Looking up hill Is only only gonna get you so far. Man up I think we'll have to agree to disagree. In my hotheaded youth, I might had leaned towards your viewpoint, but in my stodgy middle age, I'm pretty motivated to not get smacked, and have been fairly successful at doing so. I just hope you don't apply the same attitude to downhill riders that you're overtaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 This thread is lame. Your gonna get hit no matter what. Just deal with it. I'm sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of Sally's. Who cares if you got hit. Just deal with it. There's no cure for it. Roll with the punches. Looking up hill Is only only gonna get you so far. Man up Safe to say this poster is: As Dan alluded to: a young man/ a troll / part of the problem/ has never been hurt seriously in a crash/ needs time to mature and evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I go around 130 days and on one of those someone is going to run into me... I look uphill at least on every other turn, especially on Aspen Mt. Last Season a 50 something straightline Snowboarder came up super fast from behind and just took my legs right out from under me... He then proceeded to scream at me that I was nuts and was doing these crazy across the hill turns and should be thrown off the mountain as I was a complete hazard! He then jumped up and took off...well I went after him and tackled him from behind to the ground, he looked totally bewildered as to what I was doing... I yelled to a Ski Patrolman who was around 100ft. away luckily... He came over and I explained exactly what had taken place and that he should explain to the SOB about avoiding Downhill skiers and or Boarders when using the slopes. The fact of the matter is there are people out there who try and guess where you are going to be next on the hill, so that they do not have to slow down while passing...and then when they hit you they blame you for being in the way. These are usually the same people that drink and drive and have never done a Wrong Thing in their life...:flamethroin the End I have decided I have to look for such people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 This thread is lame. Your gonna get hit no matter what. Just deal with it. I'm sorry but you guys sound like a bunch of Sally's. Who cares if you got hit. Just deal with it. There's no cure for it. Roll with the punches. Looking up hill Is only only gonna get you so far. Man up Yeah maybe, but I am going to do everything I can to avoid it. I do care if I get hit. Please don't come out here with that attitude. ...well I went after him and tackled him from behind to the ground, he looked totally bewildered as to what I was doing... I yelled to a Ski Patrolman who was around 100ft. away luckily... He came over and I explained exactly what had taken place and that he should explain to the SOB about avoiding Downhill skiers and or Boarders when using the slopes. that's awesome. not that you got hit, but that used the situation as an opportunity to explain etiquette to and unqualified mountain user. Tackled? Man, I don't want to piss you off. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sic t 2 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 well I went after him and tackled him from behind to the ground I finally understand your avatar sbs ! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 It's like my Dad always says about driving- if you insist on the right of way eventually you will be dead right. This thread is lame. I say that because it's so obvious what you should be doing when you're taking up the whole trail. Look uphill on every turn. Sound hard? It's not, when you're in each turn for the kind of time the OP was. Truthfully... I'm just so sick of this in the HB world. When you can cover that much lateral distance in such a short period of time AND you're not looking every time, you're asking for it. Expecting your average skier or rider to know what is possible for even the most average HB'er to do is asking too much. In every case I've ever seen where a HB'er gets hit from behind they were doing a big sweeper, perpendicular to the fall line and had a chance to look, but didn't. Having ridden both hard and soft boots for awhile now, I can say I've never been hit in SB's. I chalk that up to a more predictable turn shape that isn't surprising to your average snow-slider and my paranoid disposition while shredding. I have hit a guy in HB's while SB'ing, interestingly enough. I called out from the right 50% of the trail and he hammered his heelside right after. The hook in his turn was stunning... Really nice form, from which I tried to escape, but stood no chance. After we picked ourselves up, he came out of his skin at me. As the director of the SB school, I invited him to come with me to visit the GM, who, with lots of SB race teams training on the hill at the time, saw my side of it more than his. The responsibilty code aside, his view and mine was that it was NOT written with hooky carvers in mind. This has been said before in this thread and props to those who said it, but what some of you need to understand is that you're carrying as much, or more, speed out of the fall line than when you were in it and can carry that speed across alot of lateral distance. Do this without looking and you're as big a danger as the straight-liners, but get to be indignant about it because you think you have the code on your side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) IMHO, just because someone utilizes more slope space doesn't mean the guy from the above has a right to overtake at the expense of both. Just slow down or stop. I let others pass and look up before carving and stop when I get close to somebody (whether above me or below me), even during mid-carve. Never had nasty collision. It's really simple to avoid most collisions: be patient. Don't predict the path of the guy below, for we never know how he's gonna behave in the next few seconds. Slow down and observe. One of the prime example is the guy doing falling leaf turn. Sure, that guy eats up a lot of space, slow and annoying as hell but does that mean if I hit such guy while trying to overtake him the blame goes to both him and I? Nope, the blame should go on me, so I should "man up" and admit my guilt. He paid the lift fee, so he has as much right as me in terms of using the slopes in whichever way he wants as long as he sticks to the code. Just slow down or stop to give the person below more breathing space. Is it such a hard thing to do? If the guy below takes time to go down, slow down or stop or overtake only when he can be overtaken safely, not because we can go faster than him but because there's a plenty of space. If one cannot overtake safely, then he's probably not as good as he thinks he is. Just because someone thinks he is better than the others doesn't give them rights to compromise others' right to use the slope. Patience and respect. However, I agree, that the phrase "the skiers ahead of you" is quite ambiguous and was not made with snowboarders in mind. I believe the term "the skiers below you" is less confusing since that means I have to yield to everyone who is on lower altitude than I. (New Zealand Snow Responsibility Code:http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=2604&dDocName=WCM001440&allowInterrupt=1) Edited February 11, 2012 by leeho730 Provided link to snow responsibility code Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Just two weeks ago I was riding at my local resort. There was a guy in softies who was doing some sort of spin/turn/riding tip thing...I don't know what it was but it WAS the most erratic thing I had ever seen done on a snowboard. The guy was obviously accomplished and it was beautiful to watch BUT, I had NO idea where he was going to go next. Absolutely NO discernible pattern to his turns (?) BUT he was below me. As annoying as it was, I slowed until I was certain I could get by safely...That's how it's supposed to be done. There's really no excuse if you hit someone from behind in my opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhD Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 The code is simple and clear. The downhill slider has the right of way and it is the responsibility of the uphill rider to avoid the person who is downhill. The downhill person has two responsibilities: Don't stop where one can't be seen from above and don't enter a trail without checking for traffic from above - both of which hinge upon the practical assumption that the uphill slider can't reasonably be expected to avoid someone who is not visible. The code was written with everyone in mind, by experienced skiers who knew quite well that anyone can make an unpredictable move and that lots of skiers (in the day) regard the ability to turn as an admirable skill that is to be encouraged and cultivated, not regarded as a hazardous nuisance. They were smart enough to realize that in an uncontrolled environment, where parties are traveling fast, between any two parties one has to have the right of way and the other has to avoid the person with the right of way, and it is not reasonable to expect anyone to be looking behind all the time. If you think this is wrong, go play something else. It is the code, and it is simple and unambiguous for very good reasons. Complicated provisional case-based rules or negotiated right of way simply do not work when there is no reliable communication between the parties, things happen fast, either or both parties may be under less than perfect control and/or making physical commitments they cannot correct. Yelling at someone from behind does not give you any right of way - they may not hear you over the noise of their board and the wind (or their earbuds), and if they do hear you they might do something quite unpredictable. Hailing someone from behind is a fine idea, as long as you make sure that the downhill person hears you, understands you and acknowledges that they will do what you want them to do before you blow past. Good luck with that... Even if you've hailed them and think you've made eye contact, expect them to do something unpredictable and probably inconvenient. If they had to look back to see you they may well misinterpret your motion (based on a glance) and they may well get a little unbalanced and disoriented from looking back (possibly causing them to hook an unintended turn in the direction they looked), not to mention irritated at being yelled at by somebody who is too dumb to grasp the simple fact that they have the right of way. As director of a snowboard school, you have a professional responsibility to not only understand the code but to train students in it. The GM might think you have a point, but had you injured the guy you hit you might have had a very difficult time convincing a court that the code is at all ambiguous. The GM might have been a lot less sympathetic if he, other staff, patrollers and other customers got dragged into court to testify that you were not actually being selfish, careless and appallingly ignorant of the rules governing your profession. Your point that the average snowsports enthusiast is unaware of the capabilities of a good snowboarder or skier is, unfortunately, perfectly correct. The hordes of occasional sliders, newbies and drunks at the other (fat) end of the distribution are even less aware. Practically, we do indeed have to watch our back, and if we want to bomb down the hill do so on a closed course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin of Beagle Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Sometimes I'll do carving 270° or 360°. There is a point where I'm actually riding up the hill against traffic. According to the code, I have the right of way. Yes, I'm trying to be ridiculously funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhD Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Technically, you're probably right. And funny. With the right audience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Haha, true! Good point! Tricky! But yes, you still have the right of the way because you are the one below. People above should be able to stop and avoid other people (code number 1). And in general should keep the safe distance with the people below. Let's cite other examples. Sometimes you see ski patrollers going up the hill for rescue operation, and some boarders and skiers walking up the hill to pick up equipments or help their friends/children. Even though they move up against the downhill traffic, they still have the right of the way if you happen to be above them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Who ever you are...when you behind / uphill follow: #1. Always stay in control. You must be able to stop or avoid other people or objects. Hook a turn on your race board, crossing the entire slope in a high-speed traverse, where you have completely transformed your downhill movement into the cross-slope, without looking and you could be reasonably seen as contravening this point. You have effectively put yourself "behind" in terms of your established direction. This direction change is not momentary, but sustained. This is extremely material! #2. People ahead of you have the right-of-way. It is your responsibility to avoid them. When you create a situation like this, you have put the skier / rider safely trying to pass (as opposed to "blowing by" you), which is allowed, and you have arguably put them ahead of you. In my case, the carver WHO HIT ME, had twice the pace, covered twice the ground and easily had momentum equal to those two factors. You could say he "T-boned" me, as I was hit in the side, while he hit me head on. Someone else quoted it on here, but the "Carvers Responsibilty Code" (#8?) says something to the effect of yielding to those uphill when you are "traversing between carves" (Like the OP, most intermediates, selfish experts, or anyone on the EC program). As the "Appallingly ignorant" President of CASI, I would be happy to present this information in a court setting and back in the day, My GM and I would have willingly defended ourselves based on the above. Carvers have to realise that our equipment creates a hazard the writers of the Code did not forsee and which has not been fully expressed in its rules. I would suggest that a good lawyer in the employ of someone rich and charged with this offense, could successfully defend his or herself. A precedent might be found in the enforcement of the TSA, where insurance companies have defended "following" drivers who "rear-ended" some gaper who merged, or changed lanes in a dangerous manner. Let's get personal... Leeho and Valsam; Don't compare your actions to those of novices performing a "falling leaf", or a child traversing the slope. Damn Leeho... You even mention people WALKING on the hill. How are you different from them?! If I need to explain this, you need to hang up the hard gear. OhD, if you want to volunteer statements like "Practically, we do indeed have to watch our back" you really put a bullet in your whole presentation, as you recognize that you are doing something different, that is potentially unsafe and requires extra vigilance. Vigilance against what? Again, if I have to answer that, you too need to HANG IT UP. Cousin of Beagle... You're trying to be "ridiculously funny" but make a point that needs to be examined. At what point has your track created a hazard that the "uphill" skier could not be reasonably expected to ski defensively against? This type of case has never been in the courts anywhere, or I'd know about it. With enough money on the side of the defense, well-framed arguments on behalf of the same and I think you'd find that the "downhill" rider might not have such a slam dunk case to present. Edited February 11, 2012 by Rob Stevens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarvingScooby Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Just two weeks ago I was riding at my local resort. There was a guy in softies who was doing some sort of spin/turn/riding tip thing...I don't know what it was but it WAS the most erratic thing I had ever seen done on a snowboard. The guy was obviously accomplished and it was beautiful to watch BUT, I had NO idea where he was going to go next. Absolutely NO discernible pattern to his turns (?) BUT he was below me. As annoying as it was, I slowed until I was certain I could get by safely...That's how it's supposed to be done. There's really no excuse if you hit someone from behind in my opinion... +100% with you....what even annoying skiers or SBer manage to pass me then taking my line and slowdown...what do I do...SLOWDOWN!!! Last week I got cought behind an old skier that doing so call "traversing" all of the width of the run on a narrow run (Benny's) on my 180 deck - I have to slavering, skidding all the way down to the lift - I can't pass her or I just don't want taking risk. Sometimes I'll do carving 270° or 360°. There is a point where I'm actually riding up the hill against traffic. According to the code, I have the right of way... ...and you do have the right away (Period!) RT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Lots of ambiguity. All because of a single word. The term "people below you" instead of people ahead of you takes care of a lot of ambiguity, since its more absolute and objective and measurable. And KISS. :) Applies to hooky carvers as well. Every rule has exceptions but with the term "below you" there is less. Humans are one of many obstacles, carving or moving or walking or stationary. Irregardless of what they are doing. If they are below me, it is my responsibility to avoid them, not theirs, and if I cannot avoid them, then essentially I am violating code number I as well because I'm not in control. Avoiding them also means maintaining a very safe distance, say more than 20 meters, stopping and waiting for the path to clear before carving not just using evasive manuveurs and speed control. If there is someone below and he's, say 20 meters, away from me, then no matter how unpredictable his turn is going to be or even if he makes any sudden movement, I will be able to adapt and avoid collision. Should I want to overtake him, then I should make sure he is well away from me in terms of distance perpendicular to the fall line before attempting to overtake. Keeping a safe distance prevents a lot of collision and is an important strategy in avoiding skiers below. If it is not possible to keep a safe distance, then slowing down will either prevent collision or injuries. Being on the regular slope is about having safe and fun experience whereas being on SBX courses is about being competitive. Those are two different environments, and different rules and skills apply. For example, being crazy fast and able to overtake competitors just by a few inches is an impressive and even necessary skills for SBX courses but will it be appropriate for everyday use on the average slopes where not everyone is following a set path and there are a lot more variables? I respect your skills, but we, mere mortals, are different ;) Edited February 11, 2012 by leeho730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sic t 2 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 ...and you do have the right away (Period!) Hey, thanks for that ! Nothing like the skier's responsibility code to help clear things up :rolleyes: do the math: on the right side the uphill skier has a speed of 40 mph, downhill rider a speed of 35 mph, = 5 mph closing on the left side the uphill skier has a speed of 40 mph, downhill rider a speed of 15 mph, = 55 mph closing does anyone on this site seriously think you could escape ? if so, you need to sit down and think about "55 mph" for a few more minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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