Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[johnasmo]

on the issue of flows.

lots of people are saying fastec stuff is more reliable and performs better. these are mostly your average softbooter types though.

catek even sells fastec

edit: just realize all fastec systems I have see are regular 2 strappers not big one strap systems like flow and probably ride something more like a burton cartel than the flow 11s

one thing that's becoming big is softboot canting, Ride and burton are both offering cants for their softboot bindings now.

I haven't seen any of the fastec's in person yet, so all I have to go on are the pictures I've seen online, but I'd say you are right that they are aiming at a ride similar to a Burton Mission or Cartel of recent vintage. K2 tried for this market with the Cinch model, but it was too complex and heavy to win the hearts of the park crowd. This one looks like it keeps the weight comparable and with Mervin Manufacturing behind it in their brands (GNU, Roxy, ??) it will likely fair better. Mervin Manufacturing has a lot of street cred with this crowd.

I'll have to try some out if I get a chance, but a couple things do concern me just from looking at the pictures. First, the funny cable routing looks like it was done to lessen the amount of boot squeeze experienced when locking the highbacks in place, but the boot squeeze is part of what makes your foot feel really locked down inside the boot, so it's correcting something that I didn't consider a problem. Second, the two strap design won't offer the forward lean support that a single strap design can offer. With the ankle and toe portions of the strap coupled in a single strap design, the ankle portion of the strap can be more resistant to forward motion. In trying to make their bindings feel more like everyone else's, Flow started using an I-strap shape in recent years, which cuts out more material between the ankle and toe parts of the strap. I've found this decoupling to reduce support considerably. The only setup where I use an I-shaped strap is on a Burton Fish, where I enjoy the lack of support... er mobility. This was the last board on which I used Burton Missions. I find that the the I-shaped straps pretty much bring the Flows back down to a two-strap level of performance. So sad, but this is capitalism, and the market has spoken.

If you want mega-support, you want to be looking for the old Flow Pro FR model from around 2005. It had the strap from Hell. If you want one that's still good after you're experiment with no-overhang is over, the Pro 11 of that era and its recent derivatives are all good. I haven't tried this year's M-11 with the I-shaped strap, but at least it looks more substantial above the ankle than the others.

[ursle]

Thanks ursle!

Although I spent a lot of time reading about modern sidecut etc when carving skis really made their debut in the years recovering after my skiing accident in '83! Then,again, having got back into it again in the last few years and branching into tele skiing more recently.

As regards angles, discussions here have me pretty clear about what I'm going to experiment with.

It's really down to picking the most relevant kit now, and quickly; since I only have a few more days this season, and there's not a lot of snow in NH right now.

Not on snow this easter. Missed the full climbing body work out last easter skiing and boarding in Austria, so climbing in Arizona this year. That's it then until next Christmas in New Hampshire.

Right, well have fun trolling

[Zone]

Off the EC forum.

I would still try to get hard boots and plates to ride it at high angles.

I finally got to ride the Dual so here is my first impressions report.

Short report

Great mix of all-mountain/freestyle board with EC in mind.

Longer Report

Weather conditions were groomed snow + 3cm of fresh snow on top.

Well, even though I had the Dual with me, I could not help myself to go out first on the Extremecarver to have the morning groomer first. :P

After ~ 2hrs of carving fun, during a front side turn, the nose folded on the soft snow and I went over the handle bar. :x

That was when I realized it was time to "retire" the Extremecarver for the day and pull out the Dual. :twisted:

While switching board/boots, I chat with my brother over the phone and he insisted that I try ECing with softboots + Dual. So instead of taking the Dual out at 25F/-15B as initially intended, I switched everything to 30F/20B on Flows NXT/AT + Salomon Malamute boots (Nils, are you happy now? I did not ride duck!! :wink:)

While riding the shuttle with the Swoard Dual by my side, a girl beside me said "I have never seen this brand before, what kind of board is that? It looks great!" :)

I congratulated her for her good observations and pointed to her the Swoard.com as stated on the board. I simply said that the board was derived from alpine snowboarding.

On first impressions, the board felt very light underfoot, quite soft and forgiving. On the greens, it was great fun and it had very similar feels to the Extremecarver so I felft comfy right away.

Ok, time to try the ECing on soft boots on blue/black.

Front side turn: the board was ripping laydown turns on the front side. It was easy and fun!!

Backside turn: I crashed every single time and after 2 runs I realized that I booted out on the heel big time (remember I was at 30/20).

Then, I changed the angles so that no front/back boot out was possible and ended up with 40/35 :!: .

Conclusion :?: It was completely possible to link EC turns on the Dual with soft boots.

That said, I would like to share my personal take on high angle soft boot ECing.

- The "show off" factor was multiplied by 10. Everybody was watching when I pull those front side laydown but when I linked front and back, the whole world stopped to watch.

- From the personal "fun factor", well....carving linked EC turns on soft boots was NOT that fun because it took too much efforts from the legs to compensate for the lack of support from hardboot

- The shorter radius also reduced the fun factor of a prolonged EC laydown

- At those angles (40/35), I rather be on hardboot, enjoy the ride and have fun.

On another note: I personally found the Flow Bindings to be great for carving.

So this is my first impressions of the Dual. I am keeping all options opened when it comes to soft boots but there are good chances that I will hardboot with the Dual at 40/30 in the future because it is a great All Mountain board but with a possibility to throw some EC turns in the mix.

I will revisit for another Dual report by the end of the season.

Many thanks to the Swoard team :bravo: . This is another great design!!

Cheers

Peter

ps: sorry, I do not have any video to prove linked EC turns on softboots so you would have to believe me :roll: :lol:

[piusthedrcarve]

or accept some rear boot out on the 175 and bring it down to 40/20 or 35/20 ?

Hi,

From my past experience with softboot (very stiff from DNR step-in, in/outside of mid-section) with flexible tongues, I set it 60/50 to ride. I realized the set up is not for carving with softboots after I broke my front ankle. If it was hardboots, board would be broken. Took me out 2 seasons and still little sore after 18 holes of golf. :(

When you push your weight forward to initiate a turn, and if nose dive happens, even softboots with tongue is not strong enough to resist your weight going over on nose of the board. I didn't know there is 3 straps bindings but if you do want to set it high angles, please use 3 straps. If it is EC style carving that you are pursuing, you don't need to set them at those angles.

Now I am riding 45/35 on the same boots but moving my weight continuous so that it won't happen again with.. extreme carefully.. not fun :( My suggestion would be 30/20 with cants/lifts (if options are available) to turn easier.

[leeho730]

Hi docrob,

Did you buy FR2 Evo? Congratulation!

If you don't mind, I've got some advice for you.

1) Please be gentle on ratchets, especially ankle ones. They seem to break easily.

2) At first, the ability to adjust cant/lift can overwhelm you. It all depends on how stiff your boots are, and the angle of bindings. Probably a good place to start is to begin with no lift and no cant on front foot and either one degree cant and 2 degree lift or zero degree cant and 3 degree lift. If your boots are not so stiff, and if your angle does not go over 50F/45R, you can probably start with zero cant and zero lift on both feet.

A good website for customizing adjust cant/lift for FR2:

http://www.catek.com/tiltcalculator.htm

3) Sometimes kingpin would become loose, DURING riding. A good way to secure FR2 baseplate to the powerplate is to rotate the kingpin first then rotate all cant pins half turn. You don't have to be super accurate, but fairly accurate when you set cant pins. I usually put the baseplate with the set cant pins on a flat surface before and see if all four cant pins touch the surface without movement.

4) Highback rotation on FR2 is quite hard, because the aluminium heelcup is very rigid. You may experience loosening of the screws that join the heelcup to the baseplate. DON'T let this happen! Please always make sure to check the binding for any loose screws at the end of the day. This is a good praceice, but especially important for FR2 because unlike modern plastic bindings, FR2 is still held in most places by screws, some really small.

5) Use plumber's tape to secure threads.

6) Don't be afraid to increase rear angle to eliminate overhang for FR2. ;)

I use the following setup for my softboot carving:

Prior ATV 161 (waidst width 23.5cm)

FR2 (53F/48R, 1 degree cant, 2 degree lift on the rear and flat on the front, stance width 47cm)

32 Forecast (US 8)

Works for me, I can do toeside extremecarving on this one. FR2 is super stiff so you can try a bigger angle! But probably it's not so great idea to go over 55 degrees on the front and 50 at the back. And that darn highback is not so easy to rotate either...

7) Ultimately, find your own setting! ;)

It's all yours to find; listen to anyone's advice (including mine) with a grain of salt.

Hope this helps :)

[docrob]

Some amazing info there! ..Thanks drzone and Leeho, psdcarve.

"do I MIND ?" Leeho !!

That's invaluable info you gave..I printed it off. Lots of folk will I'm sure find that useful.

It's looking amazing what experienced alpine boarders can do with soft setups.

Drzone; I bet Jacques/Fivat are stoked! Yomama the first eh?

Had decided to play around with the "Norm" and linking carves using my Cinch CTX and malamutes on the Palmer pulse; instead of getting the technine pro series with the scrub high back and cant and lift options, after what Rob advised re' not being too concerned about bindings in the learning stage.

The Cinch binding has quite a high back with forward lean adjustment, and clamps the foot pretty firmly. Also, there are a couple of vertical slots down each side of the high back. I thought I could slip a 2" wide nylon strap through and round my leg, closed with a quick release pack style clip, like a third strap if I needed the extra leverage/ankle protection.

I'd still be interested in any opinions about those Technine bindings. Positioned for park and pipe, wouldn't they be too flexible?

Although if so, the ramps and highback wings contraindicate.

Also, the wings surely need to be both on the same side of the L and R bindings for carving with feet both pointing forwards. These seem to be on opposite sides (for duck?).

[docrob]

Johnasmo,

Thanks!

What's the difference between the Pro C FR, Pro S FR and Pro 11 FR?

[carvin29]

The Catek's really intrigue me but I wonder about the aluminum being too harsh and unforgiving going through chop. Also, how do they compare in weight to something like a Burton C02?

[bobdea]

The Catek's really intrigue me but I wonder about the aluminum being too harsh and unforgiving going through chop. Also, how do they compare in weight to something like a Burton C02?

that's a good concern! the cateks ARE amazing but are also harsh and heavy.

CO2s are light and a pretty forgiving binding. I live on the east coast and I like railing in softboots. cateks fit that bill but so do a ton of other options. depends on what you value I guess. cateks are really about adjustability, if you need a lot of adjustibility it's probably the binding for you. also, don't sweat the plastic high back, I was running the carbon one but I realized I like the plastic better, it's softer.

[leeho730]

The Catek's really intrigue me but I wonder about the aluminum being too harsh and unforgiving going through chop. Also, how do they compare in weight to something like a Burton C02?

Funny, I used to have both bindings as well.

Catek is probably the heaviest softboot binding ever. CO2, one of the lightest in the market. Catek is probably three times as heavy of CO2, it's that heavy. I take my hats off to anyone who use this binding for freestyle or for a backcountry trip.

[bobdea]

Funny, I used to have both bindings as well.

Catek is probably the heaviest softboot binding ever. CO2, one of the lightest in the market. Catek is probably three times as heavy of CO2, it's that heavy. I take my hats off to anyone who use this binding for freestyle or for a backcountry trip.

your sir have hit it on the head. if I were riding pow a lot I'd not even consider cateks. but I live on the east coast so I run catek........

[docrob]

Any other recommendations for stiff but also quality softboots other than Malamute?

and can the Burton 3 hole plates be swapped for four hole? If so, what brand?

[bumpyride]

Any other recommendations for stiff but also quality softboots other than Malamute?

and can the Burton 3 hole plates be swapped for four hole? If so, what brand?

Burton made both 3 and 4 hole plates.

Let me know if you're thinking of the 3 strap torques.

[nekdut]

Any other recommendations for stiff but also quality softboots other than Malamute?

and can the Burton 3 hole plates be swapped for four hole? If so, what brand?

Take a look at the Burton Driver X.

[bumpyride]

This got sent to the wrong thread.

Sorry.

[docrob]

Bumpy,

But can all/most burtons have plates swopped out? do any other brand plates fit flush?

Will check Necd'; thanks.

[teach]

I like my Northwave Decade SL2. They're at least as stiff as the Malamutes I just got (thanks, Dave) before putting in the Malamute stiffener inserts. They fit my narrow-heeled feet very well (no heel lift) and have a good, durable, shock-absorbing midsole. You can sometimes find them at a bargain price, unlike Malamutes. The Malamutes have more meat in the back of the heel, which means they take more space but conform better to funny-shaped heels. I think the Malamutes are lighter, too.

[bumpyride]

Bumpy,

But can all/most burtons have plates swopped out? do any other brand plates fit flush?

Will check Necd'; thanks.

Yes. I have all kinds of 4 and 3 hole burton plates. I'm not sure about earlier than 1995, but everything after that has the same cogs on the plate.

[bobdea]

Any other recommendations for stiff but also quality softboots other than Malamute?

and can the Burton 3 hole plates be swapped for four hole? If so, what brand?

burton diver x

and yes, burton disk bindings from 1993-4ish on can all can use 3 or 4 hole plates and MOST of them are the same except the x-base bindings which were not around long and are now super rare. probably a collector's item. the only exceptions I can think of other than those carbon bindings are the 2 hole ones but that should be obvious.

[carvin29]

Bob- what were the X base bindings? Surprised I never heard of them.

[Dave ESPI]

Not sure what "X" pattern bob is talking about unless he means the smaller diameter insert disk that only fit a few kinds, but Burton also had a baseless binding, and a quick change system that was rapidly replaced with a newer style because the center disk would strip out with tweeking and pivoting the feet in the bindings while riding the board.

[svr]

Bob- what were the X base bindings? Surprised I never heard of them.

These are the x-base bindings...they were 100% carbon fiber with a small aluminum piece behind the heelcup in order to keep it from flexing too much and breaking.

cheers,

sandy

[carvin29]

Wow that's awesome. I googled and someone said they retailed for $300 which seems low compared to the $400+ C60's of today:mad:

[bobdea]

These are the x-base bindings...they were 100% carbon fiber with a small aluminum piece behind the heelcup in order to keep it from flexing too much and breaking.

cheers,

sandy

sandy you got a rarity right there!

were the disks on those interchangable with other burton stuff? I feel like I remember those having a thinner disk or something.

did you go through a bunch of those?

a buddy of mine convinced them(burton) to give him a set of customs and a ton of softgoods after breaking a set pretty much every time he went out on them and considering he lived slopeside it was for than a few sets.

[leeho730]

So, the CO2 weighs in at less than 2 pounds! Huh!

Too much noise here, I have to head up into the wilderness now.

So you know, the Virus FLP set up with the real Catek FR2 Pro weighs a lot less than most set ups out there (less than 10 pounds). Next time please be more careful with your numbers.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

It weighs close to two pounds ;)

Salomon Caliber binding weighs 945g and Burton CO2 is definitely lighter (I am not talking about a pair, but a single binding).

Yes, three times may be an exaggeration but twice at least (the nidecker straps don't help either... especially ankle straps which are bloody heavy), and when I use it, I can feel the weight under the feet, especially on the park. CO2 on the other hand is so darn light.

I can see that you've changed the ankle straps. A good move!

I'm going to buy a pair of burton ankle straps and fit them into my FR2. I've already fitted burton capstraps into FR2 and I'm loving it.