Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[svr]

sandy you got a rarity right there!

were the disks on those interchangable with other burton stuff? I feel like I remember those having a thinner disk or something.

did you go through a bunch of those?

a buddy of mine convinced them(burton) to give him a set of customs and a ton of softgoods after breaking a set pretty much every time he went out on them and considering he lived slopeside it was for than a few sets.

Hi Bob,

You are right, the discs were not compatible with any other burton bindings as they were made only for the x-base. I only had one pair, and I used the bases of the bindings for my ascent skis as they were nice and light, but sadly the whole binding is very brittle and does not hold up to much abuse without breaking.

cheers,

sandy

[bobdea]

What? both feet look to be around 45 deg.

You need to go Duck or at least....

still have your agenda, christ.

[Dave ESPI]

What? both feet look to be around 45 deg.

You need to go Duck or at least....

This drips of sarcasm....

lol.

[docrob]

Burton Driver X !

Can get 2010 Deeluxe Track 700 from Austria for not much more than the dollars for this boot.

Am I right that they'll be cheaper in a few months?

I noticed Sierra Snowboard had a great price on these just; but out of my size.

Technine 2010/11 Mens Pro Series Team Pro and Blue Magoon; with the “scrub hook highback” wings only on the side they’d be needed on, lift adjustment and additional rotational option. A decent binding, or hype for baghomme and bagette?

<O:p

[leeho730]

If you can get hardboots for that price in Austria, you might want to go for hardboots instead ;)

[John Gilmour]

I often find myself in a dilemma. I set up a hardboot board and it turns into a POW or Crud day.

Or.... I take out a powder board with soft boots- and find out the snow is better suited to Hardboots and a carving deck.

Or I'm on a alpine deck and hardboots, and my softbooted friends show up and want to run tight trees and some bumped out stuff.

Or I'm on softboots and I meet up with carvers on Alpine set ups that want to carve on ice.

Sooooo...

Unless conditions are clearly optimum for one type of set up or another.... Ie 2 feet of Pow or no snow for 3 weeks, a dusting of 3 inches to make it a super carving day once it is groomed in...

I opt for something that isn't limiting.

My boot evolution. 1981 LL bean boots, 1983 Koflach Valuga lites, 1985 Koflach Albonas, 1988? Nordica TR-9 (a stiffer SBH) , Salomon Malamutes (1995) , Head Stratos (sometime in the 1990s), Burton Andy Warhol Softboots 2006 (a stiffer varient of the hail boot ...I still Love them...and despite not bells and whistles think the flex pattern is simply amazing when laced up right- I am stockpiling them currently), 2009 deluxe 700T with Strolz injected liners.

I ended up with what most would think is a horrible set up... in part to limit my riding speed after a bad accident in 2004.

Rossignol Judge 168, 2006 Union Force DLX, Burton Andy Warhols. front binding...I was shocked I ended up so steep myself.... errrr set at 45 degrees. Rear binding about 32 degrees. More highback lean on the rear, nearly none on the front, 19 inch stance, and.... super good smartwool socks..

The Andy Warhol boot fit is so good- I have less heel lift and less lateral roll than in my custom injected Strolz liners. Which is probably why I can get it to work well at 45 degrees... Honestly..I'd love to ride with less angle.... but my heelside suffers and I lose the ability to EC speed off. I want less angle for steeper crudded up deep powder.... but everytime I try it... it doesn't work for me...and I'd love to get more dialed for that type of condition.

But on this set up..I can ride ridiculously deep snow, and steep very comfortably. My front foot does not slip off the high backs on heelsides.

Also ..since in the early years Jeff Grell and I discussed manufacturing highback bindings and I had made a proto out of soccer shin guards... (I was the East coast SIMS rep) I feel I am reasonably qualified to talk about the evolution.

Three strap bindings... IMHO are garbage. All of them.

forget them.

SoftBootSailor I see you nearly every day on Silverbells in Aspen when I am out.. You never seem to go much over 15mph. I never see you on Ruthies run... and it is because your style limits you. I think you are in good enough shape to blast it on Ruthies, if you would change your style. Yes there are historical photos of guys killing it on steeps in 3 strap bindings, but mostly because they were great athletes skilled at compensating for gear shortcomings. Andy Couglin (Oh crap I've dated myself) rode and raced on 3 strap bindings...but you would never see him on them today.

I think it is great that you enjoy every moment you are on the slope leaving your line... but unless you find out that the OP wants to ride exactly like you do... I would just let the people with two strap experience give the advice.

I've carved Aztec clean on my split tail powder board with Ray (virus) in softboots with 2 strap bindings..I assure you it would be much harder to do this in 3 strap bindings.

Why?

because a 3 strap binding is trying to make your softboot and soft binding act like a hard boot.... but... by locking the highback you are locking your ankle... and preventing your center of mass from moving over the edge in a anatomically strong position. So You end up with a structurally weak softboot and binding (and ankle) in a position where it can be overloaded without hardboot support.

That's why you will never be able to carve Aztec clean in 3 strap bindings. but if you swapped your style out and tossed the locked leg to the high back... you might be able to do it some day.

So My whacked out set up... allows me to cover a lot of terrain.. IMHO you can carve on just about any board with side cut if you develop the skill to control the board flex pattern. I hated my Rossignol Judge 168 the first day- I wanted to toss it..thought it was a log... but now that I understand how to bend it..I feel very confident on it. To its benefit.. it has taper.. tons of it.. for easy tail release, natural set back, and a split tail for powder riding...and it seems to help a bit when carving.

I also ride the Catek soft bindings on my shorter Rossignol 159cm split tail.. mostly to give me more ability to drive the limited effective edge into the snow. I don't use them on the 168 because I am trying to keep the weight down on what is already a large board for softies.

But I want more performance now.

So I rode both Kessler BX's and I'm looking for the ideal softboot combo... My Andy Warhols actually for the first time felt a bit soft... on those boards.. and I found myself crushing my foot in the Catek Freerides wanting more response (So I had to tighten them a ton). I switched to my 2006 Union Force DLX... and felt I still needed a stiffer binding.

Holy crap is that 168BX Kessler deck is fast when waxed and prepped right.. I actually felt faster down the hill on that than my Kessler 185 PGS. But the edge hold of the PGS simply blows both BX decks out of the water.

2 weeks ago some random guy with a helmet cam on the hill tried to shot some footage of me EC'ing on softies on my powder deck..We took 2 runs but he could not keep up... finally I slowed it dow to sub 30mph so he could get a shot.... but you can see.... I'm not sacrificing much compared to my hardboots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KIfgDSYPqw

"Speed snowboarding" ...HA!! It's slow as crap. But I did not name this vid.

at :24 you can see edge changes are fast even in two strap bindings and a split tail powder deck. At :47 - :54 you can see you can EC on this if your technique is ok. I still have a ways to go...my recovery skills are good even if I go airborne over a knoll while EC'ing heelside at high speed so I can reset my edge.. but the Swoard guys have a more effortless (even if slower) looking style on film.

If the snow is good I'll do one SES day fast on Ruthies on this pow deck EC'ing. I really just figured out the high speed softboot EC in the last 4 weeks.

I did not post this vid..(the skier could not keep up) and frankly I think I look pretty crappy in it and I'll have him take it down in a bit ... but hell I still owe guys on this forum a stack of twenties to finish my 360 video. (I did not forget)

But please don't take my whacked out Powder deck advice.. I can carve anything...but can't ride pow well in anything so I biased towards Powder...

MY best advice... Buy a Kessler BX... or similar quality BX deck (no Madds this season :( )... I would not suggest flows if you want to carve high angles as they "binding out" on heelsides... if you like "Gilmour bias".. Most Flow bindings just extend too much.. If you decide on Catek Free rides.. definitely go with a stiffer boot than normal..as the Catek freerides have no true front "foot cup" (so softer soft boots will flatten without that side support) and so you'll need a supportive boot. Make sure the boot has a hinged boot cuff... I think the Burton ION for instance (a "one piece boot" ie..has no articulating cuff) ... IMHO is limiting in flex and makes it hard to position your center of mass over the toeside edge for high speed toesides.

If you go for conventional bindings,... you can ride a regular stiffness softboot. For conventional plastic bindings... I really think the Union bindings are excellent..and have amazing shock absorption on crap conditions,. I don't care for Burton bindings at all as the heel cup can drag and the highbacks don't flex laterally the way I like. YMMV. Ride made a softboot binding with cant options... I haven't tried a ton of softboot bindings..as many of them have ankle straps that do not provide progressive flex...so i just don't bother with those. I've got a pair of Rome David Bowie bindings... but have relagted them to my dedicated deep Powder board..a 160cm Salomon Sick Stick. (which sucks for carving....so difficult to carve..it is not worth it).

PS....without "Gilmour Bias" I'd probably never bother with softboots as they would be too unresponsive and not edge well enough to bother. But once you get your front heel over the heelside edge and your rear toe over the toe side edge...and understand how to lever the rear leg for heelside to bend the board into an arc..and how to lever the front foot for toeside (wayyyyy prior to turn apex- and then you have to involve the front knee to engage the forward part of your toeside edge) to make the board into a perfect arc... you really don't miss hardboots much AT ALL except for East Coast wind stripped rained on frozen boiler plate. Personally I don't care for the current PSIA teaching style shoulders over knees... but that is ...perhaps...because no one has ever taught it to me properly...something I'd like to learn this SES.

I also don't recommend my high stance angles... I'm not sure why they work for me.

and..I hate the weight/extra clutter of carrying my hardboots around... but I love the cutting power on stripped snow. If I could not carve well on softboots..I'd never use softboots....but it can be done...and in fact is pretty easy once you know the sequence and balance points...but the gear (boots and bindings) has to fit and be adjusted EXTREMELY well. IMHO it is harder to dial in a softboot set up for highspeed carving (30+ mph) than a hardboot set up.

Take this opinion with a grain of salt.. it just works for me..but in no way limits my speed or ability to carve steeps. FWIW today I ripped my rear binding off a board on Ruthie's on Ajax Aspen laid over heelside at 40-50mph and was able to ride it out one footed. I would have been TOTALLY screwed/Hospitalized in a 3 strap binding and been out for the season as I would not have been able to flex my leg forward to get my butt near the board and grab the nose of the board with my hands to physically bend it to tighten my carve radius as I was running out of trail and about to head into the trees. I carved one footed to a full stop. This would not have been possible on gear from 20 years ago.

[sic t 2]

Any old Ride binding is the best ! The ones with the full metal base plate.

Get the cheapest model, otherwise you get toe risers that have to be ground completely out. Along this line of thinking, you can also locate a 3/8 inch thick HARD rubber pad and put it under your heel. The idea is "heels high, toes low". Logic behind this is that in attack position the standard binding has too much "toe attack angle" and too little "heelside attack angle". Crouch slightly (on your kitchen floor in a freeride stance) and then try to raise your heels and then your toes. Even without board on your can see that you have "too much toe power" and very little ability to transfer weight to your heels and raise your toes. Do the above mod and equalize your foot weighting on the board when you are in a slight attack crouch.

Total Investment $80 + $2 for the pads.

my Donek with old Ride Bindings

The setup burns a nice carve

Sic...

[bobdea]

Any old Ride binding is the best !

Get the base model, otherwise you get toe risers that have to be ground completely out. Along this line of thinking, you can also locate a 3/8 inch thick HARD rubber pad and put it under your heal. The idea is "heals high, toes low". Logic behind this is that in attack position the standard binding has too much "toe attack angle" and too little "healside attack angle". Crouch slightly (on your kitchen floor in a freeride stance) and then try to raise your heals and then your toes. Even without board on your can see that you have "too much toe power" and very little ability to rise up on your heals. Do the above mod and equalize your foot weighting on the board when you are in a slight attack crouch.

Total Investment $80 + $2 for the pads.

my Donek with old Ride Bindings

The setup burns a nice carve

Sic...

what?

that would be like the really OLD burton freestyle bindings, was not a fan. always felt like I was falling off of them I do ride with a little cant though when in cateks. boy, that really makes a bigger difference than many would think. I don't NEED it but it really opens up possibilities for wider stances and making jibber stance bareable.

I WISH I HAD MORE TIME TO RIDE!!!!!!! and a couple more boards to **** around with.

[sic t 2]

what?

that would be like the really OLD burton freestyle bindings

nah, no comparison, I have pairs of those home too (burton freestyles). in fact, ALL burton freeride bindings are junk. Bad baseplates. Like something made at Toys R Us. Old Rides are beartraps. Super strong.

Sic

[John Gilmour]

Old rides have a nice thin smooth heel band ..so you don't binding out heelside....

[docrob]

John Gilmour,<O:p</O:p

Interesting post.<O:p</O:p

So non articulating cuff boots won’t help make up for the stiffness of a hard boot?<O:p</O:p

Are the post 2006 Any Warhols just as good?.. inc’ with lateral stiffness?<O:p</O:p

Better than Driver X? <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Can’t the Cateks accept a toe cup from another manufacturer?<O:p</O:p

Didn’t someone on here enjoy swapping in Burton straps…good idea? <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Oh, and anyone know how much rise the Fr2 Cateks can adjust to?<O:p</O:p

[John Gilmour]

John Gilmour,<O:p</O:p

Interesting post.<O:p</O:p

So non articulating cuff boots won’t help make up for the stiffness of a hard boot?<O:p</O:p

Are the post 2006 Any Warhols just as good?.. inc’ with lateral stiffness?<O:p</O:p

Better than Driver X? <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Can’t the Cateks accept a toe cup from another manufacturer?<O:p</O:p

Didn’t someone on here enjoy swapping in Burton straps…good idea? <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Oh, and anyone know how much rise the Fr2 Cateks can adjust to?<O:p</O:p

I haven't figured out the smiley thing...

Well one of the great things hard boots have going for them is an articulating cuff..so the bottom of the boot doesn't "blouse" (ie expand) when flexed...leaving your foot with more room to roll when you need the foot to be held at the most critical moment of pressure.

Were warhols made in any other year?

http://www.dogfunk.com/dogfunk/review/114954/andy-warhol-boots

The Lenticular graphic plate on the top of the boot of the warhols makes them stiffer laterally than the Hail and SLX

IMHO a better flex than driver X... it isn't always stiffness that is important... it's how the flex is "progressive" and that the boot cuff has a flex limiter....---> That is what gives you hardboot type performance.

Catek's plate is proprietary .. you would have to make some weird sandwich disc plate to adapt a different binding up foot plate to the Cateks.. IMHO- you are better off with a stiffer boot than the Burton Warhols - one that resists binding crush more as without the foot plate sides you have to really crank on your straps and the Warhols Blouse when you crank on them that much. BTW a tightly laced Warhol is stiffer than a Burton SLX.

You can swap straps.. I swapped in 2006 Union Force DLX straps for mine... I like the combination of the Warhol + 2006 Force DLX ankle strap.. Lets me carve like I was in a soft hardboot. I kept the highback.

You have so much toe and heel lift adjustment...... you'd never use it all.

[docrob]

Yeah, I saw later warhols on sale too, but you specified 2006. Wondered if the more recent ones had the same properties?<O:p</O:p

Not quite clear why the Cateks crush the boot more than other soft bindings?<O:p</O:p

So you recommend the warhols only with other soft bindings than Catek?<O:p</O:p

Was looking for a carving boot also with K2 Cinch CTX.<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Are you saying that the FR2 has plenty of inbuilt riser adjustment?<O:p</O:p

What about the “edgerisers” (dot com)? They aren’t made for any particular binding. Would they work with the Fr2?<O:p</O:p

[John Gilmour]

Yeah, I saw later warhols on sale too, but you specified 2006. Wondered if the more recent ones had the same properties?<O:p</O:p

Not quite clear why the Cateks crush the boot more than other soft bindings?<O:p</O:p

So you recommend the warhols only with other soft bindings than Catek?<O:p</O:p

Was looking for a carving boot also with K2 Cinch CTX.<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Are you saying that the FR2 has plenty of inbuilt riser adjustment?<O:p</O:p

What about the “edgerisers” (dot com)? They aren’t made for any particular binding. Would they work with the Fr2?<O:p</O:p

I think they were 2006 could be 2007...

Since the sides of the foot plate only go forward a few inches..when you crank on the toe strap the boot is not "contained " on the sides.. if the boot is too soft in the front in terms of its boots sidewalls... well it overflows to the sides.

Tons of riser with the FR2. I personally use about 1/2 of it.

I wouldn't use edge risers... the idea at least for me is to get close to the board and use as little lift as possible to get the desired geometry.

Oh and change your default font to match bombers...

[newcarver]

I like my Head PX10 bindings. They are pretty adjustable. Have a stiffener on the highbacks so you can adjust the flex. You can rotate the highbacks 8 deg either way and the heelcup is thin. You move the whole heelcup to adjust the highback angle and the highback locks into the heelcup when your boot is in it. Straps are comfortable with some kind of neopren mesh type stuff with cables in them. Bases on these seem pretty stiff too. Gives very good response and feel. I picked up a pair for cheap on e-bay a couple of years ago. My favorite softboot bindings so far.

[John Gilmour]

On other thing to look for... just because a heel cup is thin does not mean it will not drag.

som heelcups are lower than others.. also something to look for...

The distance between the end of the heel cup and the inside of the high back----

Some bindings have a gap between the heel cup and the highback..which you would rather not have. And it is surprising that so many bindings have this.

[leeho730]

You still have not measured anything. Your perception on the weight of these bindings is still highly shaded. The catek bindings are clearly under 6 pounds. The CO2 must weighs under 3 pounds to be half the weight of the Cateks. So, just pull out your scale and give us some real numbers not your perception, remember you have been caught exaggerating once.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

Then, please do enlighten us :)

Why don't you weigh the FR2 (with nidecker 900 straps) and give us the value? I have a fair idea about how CO2 weighs (I used to own medium size... I sold it to my friend but I want to buy it back!).

And I have FR2 as well, so I know it feels bloody heavy compared to CO2 or any other burton bindings. Not a fan of burton bindings, but they produce some of the lightest bindings and best straps, I'll give to them.

And for the burton bindings, the balance feels just right when I spin, do tricks or go freestyle/freeriding. FR2? I've used it for freestyle/freeride. Not the best. When riding on powder, I hated the moment the board stopped. FR2 made the entire setup heavy so that when I had to salvage the board in the middle of the backountry area it was really tiring, not to mention carrying it!

I have no doubt that FR2 is a great binding. But I believe it's a very narrow minded tool, good for carving but sucks at anything else. Again, my hats off to those who use FR2 for freeride or freestyle.

And mate, relax ;)

[leeho730]

*SIGH* Bola, your attitide of being aggressive and calling another user 'sucka' don't help your argument.

And please keep the argument civil. Statements such as '[m]ust be your riding dude, just keep spinning them 5s and 7s and stick with your freestyle bindings, as you have no business in the bc' don't help your cause, because the tone is overly aggressive and patronizing.

I have been criticizing about the binding, but you are criticizing about me, and that is not fair. And moreover, you seem to take the criticism of FR2 quite personally. I understand your love of the binding, but please note that not everyone shares same passion as you regarding the binding.

I acknowledge the fact that I may have exaggerated the weight difference between CO2 and FR2. But your cotinual use of this mistake as a pivotal evidence to discredit my whole argument is also not fair.

And I did not 'tear down' the product. If you have read my post regarding FR2 from the beginning, you'll notice and I've been mostly praising about FR2, especially regarding the ability to carve at the high angle and ability to adjust cant/lift.

I wish you luck with your snowboarding and I'm sure you'll enjoy your FR2. I have said numerous times that it is a great binding. I also stand by my statement that the weight of the binding is one of the disadvantages of the binding.

Have a nice day! :)

[sic t 2]

I also stand by my statement that the weight of the binding is one of the disadvantages of the binding.

$449 uhhh... oh nevermind !

Sic....

[jburrill]

You guys need to have a "carve-off" to see whom is the best. But, you have to use soft boot setups. I suggest a Custom X wide with CO2 bindings and Driver X boots with RAF inserts. Now, crank the front foot up to a whopping 26 degrees (max for this binding) and set your back foot to neg 5 degrees. You have to ride switch as well.

[twelsch42]

I have no doubt that FR2 is a great binding. But I believe it's a very narrow minded tool, good for carving but sucks at anything else.

Pot? Kettle? I believe you two have met.

Is lighter always better?

[leeho730]

Pot? Kettle? I believe you two have met.

Is lighter always better?

Short answer: I believe being lightweight is better as long as it does not come at the cost of the performance.

Long answer:

I suppose it's more of personal preference. Some do not use plates because of the weight, some (especially racers) believe the performance enhancement provided by the plate justifies its weight.

For me, I believe SW, despite its increased weight, will be my binding of choice because of increased lateral flex.

It is also interesting to note that when the binding gets upgraded, enhancements such as weight reduction usually follows.

Examples:

TD2 Ti (http://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/td2_standard_ti.cfm):

The TD2 is a full 1/3 lbs (150g) lighter (per set) from its predecessor, the TD1, with no loss in performance. The TD2 maintains that perfect Bomber feel. More binding, less weight, everyone wins. TD2 Ti Standard (w/3 degree disk) = 3.47 lbs / 1576g per set.

OS2 (http://www.catek.com/OS2-plate-binding.htm):

• Low weight for all models

FR2 (http://www.catek.com/FR2-soft-binding.htm):

We added numerous features and finesse and at the same time cut the product weight by 25% and increased the performance.

To be honest, '05-'06 K2 T1 has been my favorite softboots, despite its weight (I still have the pair). It was about 1.5 times heavier than most modern softboots, quite possibly 2 times heavier than the lightest boots such as 32 ultralight. I liked T1 because the thick shell of T1 not only allowed progressive flex but also limited excessive flexion of ankle joints. So that when K2 released a new T1 in '07-'08, I immediately hated it because they considerably thinned the outer shell in order to make the boots lighter. Funny, isn't it? I've been criticizing FR2 for its weight but now I'm criticizing the boots for being lightweight.

In conclusion, each to their own. For me, I didn't like the weight of FR2 in certain situations but for a user like bola it wouldn't matter. Everyone's unique; nobody's wrong

[leeho730]

Bola, I respect you, but "crossed the line" is not considered proper justification of starting a flame war on the internet form, not to mention the language you've employed. And no, I did not wish to go down to that level by countering it. We are mature people so we should be able to make our argument civil. One thread regarding softboot carving in this forum already became a casualty of a flame war; I have no desire to repeat the history again (by the way, this forum is primarily for discussion of hardboot carving so I wonder if what we were arguing had any point at all...)

Basically, we owe an apology to each other. I would like to apologize to you for a bit of sarcasm I've employed on one of my post, especially in a statement "please do enlighten us". It would be nice if you could apologize to me for the languages you've used on your post "Scale Again Sucka!" regarding me, such as 'sucka' or 'just keep spinning them 5s and 7s and stick with your freestyle bindings, as you have no business in the bc' or 'this stupid BOL internet attitude.'

By the way, here's my FR2 with burton capstrap on ATV:

http://imgsrv2.perfspot.com/pics/f/ig/ai/f047b9b7-dbd2-4c6e-b6a3-566310f9a92b.jpg

The problem is, my FR2 is about 4,000km away from me, so realistically I cannot measure the weight of the binding (otherwise I would have done it straight away; I would really appreciate if you could provide me with the weight of FR2 stock limited version). All I remember was that it felt really heavy during freestyle and backcountry trip as a part of my freeriding experience, to the extend that I concluded FR2 was not an ideal freeride/freestyle binding. Changing to my plastic burton binding was such a relief! By the way, Burton CO2 medium is less than but close to 900g.

But if you believe FR2 is the best freeride binding, then obviously we are in disagreement. The point I wish to make, however, is that nobody's wrong. Each to their own.

[docrob]

What are those 3 bindings in the pic above please, left to right, and merits for soft boot carving.

[DiveBomber]

My large Co2's weigh 1148g each