What is your opinion on canting, as I hear it both ways...

[Steve Prokopiw]

saved my left knee from further agony in the latteral meniscus (ok techno vultures have at it)

I did away with the front cant and experienced miraculous results.A much more comfortable dynamic heel turn.

[Jack M]

saved my left knee from further agony in the latteral meniscus (ok techno vultures have at it)

I did away with the front cant and experienced miraculous results.A much more comfortable dynamic heel turn.

I did away with my front cant and experienced crazy quad burn. To each his own.

[BlueB]

I also get front quad burn without front LIFT. However, I never put CANT on the front foot.

You guys might, or might not, be talking about the same thing...

[John H]

+2 on front lift. Lift only, no cant, same as Blue B. Without the front lift I get major quad burn on the front leg.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I did away with my front cant and experienced crazy quad burn. To each his own.

without cant under the front toe has been a great option for me when it comes to alleviating quad burn.I don't use lift on all my boards,but I do like it on boards that like to be ridden on the tail.It also facillitates a slightly wider stance.I use a small front lift(1/4") no cant on the Coiler in the Silver Mountain pics.

I ride no lift with a 3 degree cant under the rear foot on all my boards.

[Gunnar]

6degree lift, front and back. Very comfortable and relaxed ride all day long. And both my Burner 188, and my Afterburner still bends enough in the turns for 100% linked laydowns..

[philw]

As above, cant and lift are different things. If you have bandy legs you may be able to use cant, which you can get from your bindings or your boots.

I used to ride flat, but I switched boots and found the forward lean worked a little differently. Even with the front boot set pretty upright I found it hard to pressure the front edges as much as I'd like. A little "standard" heel/ toe lift sorted that in one.

So for me it's like all those other binding related questions... you have to consider the whole system and tune it together, not bit by bit.

As far as reverse camber's concerned, well by the time I have my boards in reverse camber I'm sort of past needing to pressure the front edge specifically, my mass acting in the centre, working with the camber against the reverse position holds that tip right on line. So that argument's doubly bogus to me.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yes, I a also getting confused over the cant/lift interchangeability here.

greg

[Wun]

Just gon' add my 2 cents of experience like everyone else to the main discussion.

For me, flat's not an option. I can't even dial in and just stand on carpet without quad burn if I use anything less than a 3 and a 6 (inward cant/lift) with my TD2s. However, note that I'm a slim guy and only 5'4'' in height with HSP boots, which are pretty stiff.

[NateW]

Of course I agree that canting/lift is a very individual thing and you should feel comfortable, but let´s say you are completely neutral and you can handle flat bindings as well as some canting or lift. Then the question is - Are there any advantages or disadvantages concerning some canting and/or lift? Can you get more pressure on the edges or less? Or any other factors?

In that case I'd suggest setting up one board flat, and one board with 3 degrees on each foot (that 3/3 setup works wonderfully for me, therefore everyone should do it), and swap boards periodically until you notice a preference.

If no preference happens, then just toss a coin before you set up your next board...

Like some of the folks above, I don't believe there's an objective better/worse. Peoples' legs vary, so binding makers have provided this adjustment so that everyone can be happy.

[NateW]

Arnaud. Do you honestly believe that non-Swoard or non-EC boards do not bend while carving?

I figure the people who came up with that idea figure that they are most interested in what's happening when carving, and not at all interested in what happens between carves. It's not that the equipment is any different, it's just that the focus is different. Not that nobody else considers caving interesting, just that EC'ers don't see any value whatsoever in setting up cant/lift with the board flat.

But, more than anything, I think it's just another case of Worksforme-itis. At least, I think that's the technical term.

[WinterGold]

In that case I'd suggest setting up one board flat, and one board with 3 degrees on each foot (that 3/3 setup works wonderfully for me, therefore everyone should do it), and swap boards periodically until you notice a preference.

If no preference happens, then just toss a coin before you set up your next board...

Like some of the folks above, I don't believe there's an objective better/worse. Peoples' legs vary, so binding makers have provided this adjustment so that everyone can be happy.

Ok, that´s what I thought as well (and good suggestion! Thanks!)! I just wondered about some racers, who seem to have a huge amount of lift (and sometimes canting as well). But then there are also top racers who seem to ride flat ... so it can´t have that much influence on performance. It´s mainly about comfort then as discussed here.

[Corey]

Another thought: Put your boots on and stand in your snowboard stance on a hard floor. Can you comfortably put both feet flat on the floor? I sure can't but some might be able to.

I just did some quick math too on the EC line of thinking. Assuming you bend the board into a 4m (radius) arc with it at 90 degrees to the snow and a 20" stance, you'll have a 7.3 degree bend between your feet. That's more than I was expecting but that's also a pretty tight turn. At an 8m radius it becomes 3.6 degrees.

Math:

4m = 157.5"

sin(angle) = 20/157.5

angle = 7.3 degrees

[Istvan]

I would not go into complicated 3D drawings here (and I think I would miserably fail), but I think it has not been mentioned yet, that board width / binding angles also have something to do with these things.

The narrower the board is (hence higher binding angles) the more you'll feel a need for a toe lift on your front foot and a heel lift on your back foot. (try to think about the extremes, i.e. 0 and 90 degrees). Toe and heel lifts will also trigger your need for appropriate and matching canting.

And before anyone would jump on me: all the things you wrote before are true (i.e. cants and lifts highly depend on your biomechanics, heel lift built in the boot, etc), what I wrote above should be applied in relative terms, so say you feel ok at F50 - B45 riding flat, most probably you'll feel the need for a toe and heel lift at F70 B65. Or if you use a toe lift at low angles, most probably you will want to use a bigger toe lift at higher angles.

If anyone sets up his / her boards the other way around, let me know.

My $.02.

[b0ardski]

For a skier cant and lift (or ramp angle) can be important for some people with body alignment issues.

I'll use Mrs. b0ardski as an example.

The cant adjustment on the ankle of the boot is not quite the same effect as canting under the foot as in a wedge under the binding or a shaved or canted boot sole.

When we put a wedge under Becki's ski bindings 15 or so years ago it was a vast improvement in control over merely canting the cuff of the boot. This meant no one else could use her skis and made demoing difficult.

Our local boot fit guru Sven, now puts wedges between the shell and the toe/heel blocks of the boot (Atomic boots facilitate this), eliminating binding mount issues.

To summarize; canting & forward lean on the boot cuff affect body position through the lower leg, while cant/lift under the foot allows a more neutral , thereby comfortable position for the whole skeleton. This does affect performance for someone with body alignment issues.

Your right Istvan, I mentioned earlier that I like to add rear heel lift when angles go over 50*, and I don't mind going flat on the front foot.

[Dave ESPI]

Istvan is absolutely spot-on with his analysis.

It really is dependant on angles and your body with the width of stance and board to determine the canting needed. Everyone can use a bit of Lift :)

[ursle]

Istvan is absolutely spot-on with his analysis.

It really is dependant on angles and your body with the width of stance and board to determine the canting needed. Everyone can use a bit of Lift :)

Yes dave but what do you with those size 14+ dogs of your's for lift and cant?

[Ear dragger]

Cant was something i had back in the days of racing. the cant plate gave some heel lift as well. what i have found due to others pointing it out, when you cant that back foot, you are driving the knee closer to the front leg. then, during a carve when you flex the board, You're back leg (knee) drives into you're front too soon. in otherwords, I've experienced that you lose the ability to fully power you're edges because you're legs are bound into each other. That back leg almost goes behind the front with the canting. (that has been my experience). i ride with toe and heel lift with a pretty wide stance. The lift is just to achieve the wide stance, cause width=stability. and it does feel comfy on the limbs having the toes up in the front:) . Just how i feel about the matter

[John E]

I read Jack's & Istvan's descriptions. I appreciate experts' analysis.

I'm still learning. Last year I was riding Raichle X-Bone bindings with 3 degree inward cants front & rear. I just bought a pair of TD3s with 3 degree cants.

Because the axes of our feet is not parallel to the axis of the board, it is easier for me to think foot angles like airplane angles: roll (cant) and pitch (lift).

The X-bone bindings have wedges which permit only roll (inward) and no pitch. The TD3s allow all roll, all pitch or any combination.

Jack's analysis makes sense to me that by rotating my TD3s to provide front foot toe lift (pitch) and rear foot heel lift could allow me to comfortably assume a wider stance and gain stability.

I was running a 19" stance because that was what I had on my soft setup and it seemed like the widest I could run comfortably without awkward knee positions. After reading this, I'm thinking I should rotate the rings to provide all toe lift for the front foot, and a mix of heel lift with a bit of outward roll on the back foot along with a wider stance.

I'm about 5' 11" and my shoulder width is about 19". Would I do better with a wider stance?

[D.T.]

Would I do better with a wider stance?

John,

Personally, I feel more stable with a wider stance. I'm 5'9" and run a 20" stance with primarily all lift (only 1 or 2 notches of inward cant). A slight amount of cant relieves the pressure on my knees.

[Phil]

Here is some good stuff.

[RkyMtn]

This is what I am looking for, Phil, thanks!

Thank you all for your input. Down to the basement to torque my wrists to get my boards setup.

Cheers and hopes for a great season!

Eric

Here is some good stuff.

[slopestar]

Here is some good stuff.

I like this one. very helpful description

[Jack M]

Cant was something i had back in the days of racing. the cant plate gave some heel lift as well. what i have found due to others pointing it out, when you cant that back foot, you are driving the knee closer to the front leg. then, during a carve when you flex the board, You're back leg (knee) drives into you're front too soon. in otherwords, I've experienced that you lose the ability to fully power you're edges because you're legs are bound into each other. That back leg almost goes behind the front with the canting. (that has been my experience). i ride with toe and heel lift with a pretty wide stance. The lift is just to achieve the wide stance, cause width=stability. and it does feel comfy on the limbs having the toes up in the front:) . Just how i feel about the matter

I agree completely

I'm about 5' 11" and my shoulder width is about 19". Would I do better with a wider stance?

I am about that size and I run about a 19.75" width with 3 degree discs providing mostly toe lift and heel lift (I also have a little inward and outward canting going on). Experiment, experiment, experiment.

[terekhov]

Can you comfortably put both feet flat on the floor? I sure can't but some might be able to.

static on-the-floor comfort and dynamic riding comfort is two different things altogether. some years ago I too advocated angling the bases (and not seeing EC style flat-footing at all - been not EC-style guy at all - riding mostly moguls, trees and race-style groom with occasional low carves, in hardboots - head stratos pro), but now I'm pretty much comfortable riding SuperG-style (flat-base down the hill) - it's most difficult thing if your stance is wrong IMO. so - I wanna tell that you can feel some discomfort with flat feet in static on the floor - because you don't tweak your stance to that NEW TO YOU feet angling -- it take some WEEKS for me to do this on the slopes, so it's not an easy thing which you can taste out trying during the day.