Post if you broke a Metal board

[Bobby Buggs]

I have been reading more and more about people breaking metal boards. I dont want to call out a specific company but it seems like the same boards keep coming up.

Post here if you broke a metal, how you think it happened and what board it was.

[RDY_2_Carve]

You don't have to hide the fact that the Priors with the metal topsheet are problematic boards.

There is a reason Prior will no longer warranty this version of the metal WCR. They put it in fine print on their website as I recall.

OTOH Prior has been known to give you a good deal if you call them and report in a broken 1st gen metal WCR.

[trikerdad]

I broke a Prior Metal last year in less than 2 hours of riding. It had plex plates under TD2's and broke behind the back binding. It happened when I ran out of groomed in a hard toe side turn and went into the soft stuff. Prior offered to sell me another Metal for $600. I figured that was too much for 2 more hours of riding.

[James Ong]

Had a 1st gen prior develop a tear a little bit below the bindings, Sent it back and they cut out a square piece where the tear was and patched it up with a new piece of metal.

A few weeks later the nose got damaged and the metal edges started coming off the board, i just got some gorilla glue and repaired myself.

Last bit of damage was a crack that went all the way across the board over the top set of inserts, total days on the board about 40.

When i contacted them again i was offered $100 off the price of a new board ( the original was a custom shape that cost $1100), i'm not sure if i should expect more after one repair and 40 days on the snow.:(

[cail]

broke a Coiler... going down a hill and went over a knoll... landed with my weight back on the tail and it snapped.

[bobdea]

some things to consider.

many failures would happen on glass boards as well.

if you stuff the nose, it might break any board, if you land on the tail it might break any board.

the failures associated with the first gen metals are pretty specific.

yes, the priors are prone to issues, from what a couple people have told me this is less of a issue with kesslers without a topsheet but the kesslers break as well but don't peel as much.

I've heard that kessler is gonna start putting topsheets on, is this true?

Prior is putting on topsheets now, how are these holding up?

[D.T.]

I've heard that kessler is gonna start putting topsheets on, is this true?

Saw a Kessler with a black topsheet at Bola's

[Jack M]

Mr. V... paging Mr. GeoffV...

[Bobby Buggs]

Mr. V... paging Mr. GeoffV...

I should have said broke a board you Paid for:freak3: I was a witness to that ones demise

[GeoffV]

FINE I'LL freaking post guys:freak3:

Yes I broke Bruce's personal X2 Metal , it had NOTHING at all to do with the board but the idiot rider going over a jump:eek:

I paid for my mistake Bugs and ordered a metal Coiler on top of it as well. Took it out to Sunapee yesterday and loved every turn on it:1luvu:

I was pleasantly surprised that I could get some pop out of the tail, granted it does quite pop like a glass board, but is enough to transition in the air.

All the posts on the metals folding are just about all on the the 1st gen Prior metals. Those boards were way to soft IMHO and rode nothing like the Coiler metals. I can only assume that is probably the case for the new Donek's metals as well.

[neil sunday]

we have five kessler "black tops" as we are calling them on my team. we have not had any issues with them.. the black top sheet almost looks like p-tex. the kessler logo is "diecut" on the topsheet. pretty cool stuff.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I'd be very, very, very interested in knowing the number of titanal-top Priors that suffered significant defects. I've got a sneaking suspicion that Prior probably regrets, or should regret, putting the metal Priors out when they did.

greg

[Bruce Varsava]

Sorry I do not qualify as I have never broken a metal board but have seen a few come in from myself and the odd other manufacturer.

Heres the view from my end.

Metal is here to stay, I think that is pretty much a gimme. I have been working with it for 4 seasons now but took the first 3 to sort it out before letting it loose on all you maniacs. In year 2 I did let out a few locally for punishment and did discover a few of the weak spots which were addressed as things went along. The metal on top I had bad results with right from the start. To make a long story short, the more crap you put under the metal, the more weak links you create so the higher chance for failure. I knew this right away so went to a different orientation with the topsheet and had very satisfactory results with that. Even the first boards I did in Dec 04 were built that way and some of them are still kickin!

Dealing with racers and seeing the success of Kessler, of course the metal top was tried out but was still found fragile especially since real stiff bindings always seemed to create problems.

It is especially attractive to the builders to eliminate the top as as it the most single expensive piece on a board!

One manufacturer let them out in this configuration and got a jump on the rest of us but as you have seen there have been quite a few failures. I did have a guy who busted and brought one in to take a look at. It was just as mentioned above, too many weak links under the metal. They put a reinforcement strip of carbon across the board and this is exactly where the small ripples start on the sides a few inches from the bindings.

Seems now most North American builders are following my lead in the way of building them as last season I had zero warranty issues so you can't argue with that. So I'm a genius, right? Well if you have ever seen Titanal race skis, there is no exposed metal on top of those so I simply did what the ski guys have been doing for over 40 yrs. Boards will still break when landed on hard or in strange ways but no delams last season at all. I was actually quite surprised by that as it is a delicate process which I still have been continually refining and as of last fall I really have it dialed now for super consistency throughout all the different lamination types I now use for different applications.

I still take the metal right to the edges except on the tail as it has shown no real concerns even when nicked or really beat up. I had one local rider who collided with a skier and it really mangled about 8" of the upper metal layer near the edge. He still rode it as it was , I repaired it and its still fine. You need a chisel and heat gun to get that stuff off once properly bonded!

I prefer to leave as much meat as possible over the edges. Admittedly its six of one half dozen of the other in regards to that design.

As for the breakage issue.

Since we all like the fact that these boards will bend more when pressured to tighten the turn, when you crash pretty hard they still will keep bending and as you can imagine the materials will only bend so far before some of the materials are stretched beyond their limits and the board is kaput. Not a huge issue as in the last year I have seen 3 broken and 1 bent. All were in crashes of varied severity. Falling forwards in softer dry snow seems to be much more tolerable than wet heavy snow. The wet snow compresses and gives a nice hard platform to snap the nose off. Landing on the tail you are pretty much screwed as the stiffer high back boot and usual body rotation going backwards will concentrate a lot of the load right behind the rear binding.

So these boards will break but by no means should fall apart under normal riding. The bonds you can achieve are so good with the metal that it is often the wood which gets ripped up with the metal when you force it hard enough to break. Studying the odd broken ones I get back helps decide on future reinforcement or overall laminate balancing.

I just sent out a 177 AM x 23 to a 230 Lb rider who uses Catek OS1 and I reinforced it with a new method in which I recommended he not use plex plates. Time will tell and of course with a test like this I offer immediate replacement should anything go wrong. This IMO is the proper way to go about certain development issues.

So you can ride them hard but also should ride them smart. Most do this naturally out of self preservation instinct anyways. However, going hard in soft wet snow or flat light can often lead to bad news. Nice to have the board break rather than you body but after you survive the crash, we mostly of course wish the board could have taken just a bit more:)

As for the pop issue, I was testing a board yesterday with a bit more carbon and a bit less rubber, quite snappy I must say. As much as I would ever want. The quicker powerful response does seem to hinder ice performance a bit as it was my least favorite on the surprise hard patches I hit. It was a touch stiff for me so nice and exciting on most of the hill but I didn't like the odd bounce on the real solid frozen patches. Ended up airborne a few times which was fun but done unexpectedly can also be tragic. May end up having an East and West coast lamination:biggthump

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Great post!

[Bobby Buggs]

I guess I should have said break from a crash vs fail during regular riding.

[Danked]

I wonder if my hangle plates would save my board in some situations, it has that hard foam isolation layer, which i could see letting the board flex a bit better, instead of a hard abrupt binding edge.

[Bruce Varsava]

I wonder if my hangle plates would save my board in some situations, it has that hard foam isolation layer, which i could see letting the board flex a bit better, instead of a hard abrupt binding edge.

Hangl plates actually seem to stiffen the board underfoot but they also do seem to allow the boards to take more of a beating. I would assume the pressure point is moved away and distributed a bit Don't see too many busted ones with the plates on. At least I haven't but I have not been hanging out at the races as of late.BV

[astrokel]

I just sent out a 177 AM x 23 to a 230 Lb rider who uses Catek OS1 and I reinforced it with a new method in which I recommended he not use plex plates. Time will tell and of course with a test like this I offer immediate replacement should anything go wrong. This IMO is the proper way to go about certain development issues.

Bruce,

GREAT POST THANKS!!!

So it looks like the board you do NOT recommend plexi plates on is a prototype. I got my board from you this October could/should I use plexi plates with my OS1's or should I just avoid the OS1's altogether? Out of curiosity why would using the plates hurt your prototype or is it just redundant?

You're going to have to develop the right hand signs for each Coast lamination so the bro's can talk to each other :-).

[Bruce Varsava]

Bruce,

GREAT POST THANKS!!!

So it looks like the board you do NOT recommend plexi plates on is a prototype. I got my board from you this October could/should I use plexi plates with my OS1's or should I just avoid the OS1's altogether? Out of curiosity why would using the plates hurt your prototype or is it just redundant?

You're going to have to develop the right hand signs for each Coast lamination so the bro's can talk to each other :-).

The board sent out has a new reinforcement and is a top quality latest model AM board. The rider was going to use OS1s and since he is on the heavier side it is a good testing ground to see if it will hold up. OS1s for all others should use the plate as last season there were no concerns with that set up. I would still rather see a different binding as those models have shown the most incompatability with metal boards. Its a simple matter of softer board and stiffer binding = more chance for concerns. Since the boards are softer, the softer the binding the less chance of concerns.

BV

[carvedog]

Great post!

+1 on that.

Bruce's posts are one of the better reasons to bang around Bomber.

[Fleaman]

I should be getting that board next week sometime and will post a ride report. I am sure it will work as the first board I bought from coiler,(Bruce) I was worried about stripping inserts so he beefed up my PR188 around the insert area. worked great. ChubZ now own the board. ( I needed a tighter turning on.) I bought 3 more including this one since.

I guess I should work this new board hard in the next few weeks.

Ps, I am not that fat, but am 6'4 240lbs naked and around 280lbs with gear and a patrol vest.

Punishment at it's finest

[photodad2001]

From what I've read here I will never buy a metal board. Not that I would have anyway for the money, I'm "cheap" remember. Caspers post clintched it though. I keep going back-n-forth with this battle. Is it really worth it to drop big money on a board/set-up? Earlier today I ran into a carver who was very generous and had about the same size foot I do and he very graciously let me take his board, boots and all for 3 runs. About half a size too small and had I worn them all day I'd be laid up for days. I actually have some minor bruising. Anyways... Yes I could tell a difference from his gear from mine. First run was a throw away, it was too different from my own set up for me to judge, second run I began to get used to it and by the 3rd and final run I was getting the hang of it.

On the second run I could imediately tell that I was backing off and was not trusting the equipment. On the last run I "had at it", so to speak, and on a day where the conditions were like riding on the salt you throw on your driveway to melt the ice I could tell a difference. I'd have to say that in my oppinion the biggest difference was actually wearing hard boots over the board. The black and red Deeluxe boots, love them and if I get the money, they will be mine. The board however didn't seem to have any more edge hold than my own, but with the boots it was much easier and I felt more "powered" by the boots and bindings. I almost felt like my lower legs were barely there and that when I initiated the turn from above the lower extremities were just following suit. The first real carve I made I was caught off gaurd and my weight went forward. The board was a 167 Prior, not sure the exact model. Very narrow, and also had to ride steeper angles. I think 60 front 55 rear. The angle really didn't feel much different from what I currently ride. Heal sides were more noticable than toe sides.

Anyway. I think I'm going to get boots and bindings and just stay with the same board. Perhaps there's a difference when you're riding quality snow, but since I don't get to sample it much it really doesn't matter then.

[photodad2001]

I guess I should have said break from a crash vs fail during regular riding.

Well, since I've never crashed EVER, IN MY WHOLE LIFE.... maybe I will consider buying a thousand plus dollar metal board!

[KingCrimson]

Perhaps there's a difference when you're riding quality snow, but since I don't get to sample it much it really doesn't matter then.

If you're referring to metal here, that's all the difference. The Coiler I have is supposedly unforgiving. It's more forgiving than my Burton at any Speed. Bob Dea was telling me how it wouldn't completely live up to metal's hype. He was wrong.

Metal is just too much fun. One of the weirdest things about it is the fact that the coiler is a quieter board (literally) and when you lose an edge, it's so damn that instead of that skittering noise on ice, it just goes "wooooooooh" in this deep tone until you fall or it connects back up.

[Mike T]

Bob Dea was telling me how it wouldn't completely live up to metal's hype. He was wrong.

That's a 186 / 16m that's pretty stiff, right?

Something tells me he was actually right, and you're in for another epiphany when you try something softer and with a righter sidecut. However I could see how what you are riding is still a step up from what you were riding. Any chance of you making an appearance at OES? You would be able to try some things that would just blow your mind.