Is there any other ski area that does not allow carving??

[Bubba]

This opens a whole can of worms as far as the "safety issue" goes. I help coach the D-team at Buck and cringe every year we have to compete at Welch. We do three disiplines - SS, BA, & Carving. The SS & BA scare the hell out of me. The most unsafe park I have ever ridden. Every year there are more serious injuries in their park than any place else. I doubt that injuries caused by "ruts" even come close to the carnage the park produces. Had to medivac someone out of there two weeks ago. What about the drunks, straighliners, and every other idiot out there? What about their racing programs? This is something that I think will be un-enforcable. Might have to try and see what happens.

[Gecko]

Q. I am not sure I understand what is meant by "certain style of carving". Can you clarify?

A. Going edge to edge, creating large divots, and going almost horizontally to the fall line. This is a huge liability issue for us.

do they have halfpipe?

So how do they plan of justify the ruts in the pipe???

[Speedzilla]

This opens a whole can of worms as far as the "safety issue" goes. I help coach the D-team at Buck and cringe every year we have to compete at Welch. We do three disiplines - SS, BA, & Carving. The SS & BA scare the hell out of me. The most unsafe park I have ever ridden. Every year there are more serious injuries in their park than any place else. I doubt that injuries caused by "ruts" even come close to the carnage the park produces. Had to medivac someone out of there two weeks ago. What about the drunks, straighliners, and every other idiot out there? What about their racing programs? This is something that I think will be un-enforcable. Might have to try and see what happens.

I mentioned to Trent earlier.....what about when they finish a race, pull the gates and leave 2' deep ruts down the entire hill?

I don't buy the liability issue one bit. If they can place a bunch of steel rails on the hill for the purpose of jumping onto and sliding across, you can't tell me that a 3" deep slice through the snow is a liability issue.

[BobD]

on my skis too. How would they deal with that ?

BobD

[Dan]

Thank you Tool Can and Zoom - well said.

We DO try very hard to promote our sport in a positive light and share

the hill with others..

Some dialogue with the resort has been forwarded to me:

Q. I have been told that Welch Village will "ban" alpine snowboards. Do I understand correctly?

A. No snowboards are being banned, only a certain style of carving.

Q. I am not sure I understand what is meant by "certain style of carving". Can you clarify?

A. Going edge to edge, creating large divots, and going almost horizontally to the fall line. This is a huge liability issue for us.

Beginners go edge to edge, almost horizontally to the fall line. Isn't that also a huge liability issue when you add the standard ratio of straightliners to the hill?

Someone needs to teach them some vocabulary. A divot is a single hole in one places. What we leave are trenches, dammit. :)

[Mike T]

Couple of weapons in our arsenal:

1) Trenches are actually quite short-lived. On OES day 4, we had Lower Roostertail completely trenched out by 10am at which time we moved to another run for Don's carve clinic. By lunch there was almost no trace of our having been there. This is the opposite of moguls which build up in a cumulative fashion over many days.

2) More passes with the groomers makes it so that trenches do not get cut quite so deep. This is something completely under the control of mtn mgmt.

[queequeg]

Going edge to edge, creating large divots, and going almost horizontally to the fall line. This is a huge liability issue for us.

Just when I thought this couldn't be more retarded, they begin to waffle in the most stupendously idiotic manner.

I thought this was about trenches, but now they suggest that it is about liability and such. Sounds to me like they don't really know what motivated this decision in the first place.

How is going horizontal to the fall line a liability issue??? I get the feeling that they are going against the skiers code of conduct in their policy and suggesting that the uphill skier does not have to avoid the downhill skier if the downhill skier is turning. By having directional control we are demonstrating the ability to avoid skiers who are downhill from us, straight-liners, on the other hand rarely have the ability stop or turn on demand in a potential-crash situation. So by taking this stance, they favor out of control skiers and blatantly disregard the skiers code of conduct on both the issue of control and the obligation to avoid those downhill from you. Genius. All those other ski areas must have it wrong.

Otherwise, I would seriously like to know how you are going to ban going from "edge to edge" without having all of your skiers/riders end up in the woods. Jackasses.

Instead of banning in-control riders with directional control, maybe they should consider expecting EVERYONE on the mountain to ride in control.

[Scuff]

Yes, there is a halfpipe located on it's own dedicated run...

However it has been in pretty sad condition all of the times I've ridden it.

Bubba - I agree! Moving the snowboard park onto "Lookout" - the wide-open groomer off the main lift - was a horrible decision!

Was just watching the "Welch Carving" clip on Youtube and

thinking how that park completely ruined one beautiful, crave-able, carveable run.

[Bubba]

I mentioned to Trent earlier.....what about when they finish a race, pull the gates and leave 2' deep ruts down the entire hill?

I was going to say that also, am on oxycontin and flexeril right now so the brain is kind of cloudy. Remember that carving cup from two years ago trying to cross all those ruts? Maybe they should change welch into a beginner only area renting only 120cm skis and boards with some sort of braking system integrated to slow the speeds down. Maybe even a parachute if speeds got over 10 mph. The patrol could wear a red flashing light on their heads and hand out tickets for excessive speed or excessive carving. Do bad they couldn't do something about excessive stupidity right now. Lee Nelson has lost it once again.

[Bubba]

Karl,

That big hit on the bottom right caused a massive spine compression on me. I used to be as tall as you! :D

[Buell]

Q. I have been told that Welch Village will "ban" alpine snowboards. Do I understand correctly?

A. No snowboards are being banned, only a certain style of carving.

Q. I am not sure I understand what is meant by "certain style of carving". Can you clarify?

A. Going edge to edge, creating large divots, and going almost horizontally to the fall line. This is a huge liability issue for us.

These comments are just more evidence that this is poorly thought out and that they are grasping at straws. Of all the liability issues on the mountain, are they really trying to tell us that carve trenches are a huge one? Not sure, but it looks like someone there has an outsized dislike of alpine snowboarders and carving.

[oldkey]

....that Dan's Dive at Welch is one of the best USASA racing hills in the state that times with NASTAR rankings as icing. They are very pleasant to work with for these races and have a facility at the bottom that makes watching these races pleasant. We get lots of parents that show.

Some of us really would like to make nice with the hill......kids and young adults currently ranked in the top 20 in USSA and National podium winners for USASA have raced/race at this hill. It's what we have in MN.....it is what it is....

[Steve Prokopiw]

When my two and four year old boys ask me if they can do something and I'm too lazy to help and they ask why, I just say"Cus of the liability".Gets them off my back every time!

[Dave ESPI]

I can carve just as deep and hard in soft gear as I can in hardboots.

it is why there is a "Be aware of changing weather and trail conditions" and other disclaimers.

This is such retardation..... sheesh.

the ONLY time I can see this as really being a "safety issue" is when it is crowded. I save my "agressive" riding for days when no one is on the mountain, early morning, or at night when the trails are empty, OR in designated places such as Black Diamonds. why? Cause its a FN "MOST DIFFICULT TURRAIN" area ! lol. teh trenches add to the excitement ! LOL

then again, I carve on the bunny slope with deep "stops" too because... well, its just damn fun to do it "in the flats". :D

It is more a "Safty issue" I think. Kind of like how the resort I'm at has Speed trap congestion fences and radar in use to stop speed demons on the heavily travled "family" green trails.

[Fastskiguy]

Only a real asshat *wants* to ruin somebody else's fun and not everybody has L33T SKILLZ so "if you could ski, the ruts wouldn't be a problem" isn't exactly productive.

Yes the management could have been a little more creative with their solution but it's a tough problem-Alpine snowboards should be allowed to rip it up but not at the expense of other uses. Hard carving shouldn't be a crime! But compared to the terrain park, the liability of our tracks has got to be a pretty small...and completely solvable...problem.

TC and Zoom said it better.....

Wow. Bummer, Speedzilla.

And +2 for TC's comment.

I am definitely pro-carver, but I've been thinking a lot about "trench complaints" recently. Recently, I heard that one of the mountains I ride had gotten complaints from some... senior skiers. My first response was half "Hahahaha, awesome!" and half "screw 'em!" However, a good carver friend opened my eyes to the other side of the argument.... She said, "I was always taught to respect my elders" and to do what she could to help them.

Her words made me think.... I love carving, and the days with the best conditions for the sport I love (hero groom, moderate temps and wind, sun) are pretty much the only days my older friends (70+) venture to the mountain to ski at all. A lot of the people who have trouble with our ruts are people who don't have the technique or shock absorption they used to have, and many of them take a lot longer to stand up from a fall than they did a few years ago. I admire these people and I hope to join their ranks one day, and I definitely don't want them to have less fun on the few days a year they return to the hill.

Unfortunately, I don't see an easy solution. I just wanted to offer a few thoughts about the other side of the discussion. For my part, I've found that making friends with older folks on the lift, offering a hand here and there, etc. seems to have softened a lot of people to me and my wacky single-plank set-up. I've even been thanked more than once for giving wide berth at slow speed to some older folks resting on the side of the run. Probably won't help much at Speedzilla's resort, but maybe we can make some friends elsewhere.

[spil]

Q. I have been told that Welch Village will "ban" alpine snowboards. Do I understand correctly?

A. No snowboards are being banned, only a certain style of carving.

Q. I am not sure I understand what is meant by "certain style of carving". Can you clarify?

A. Going edge to edge, creating large divots, and going almost horizontally to the fall line. This is a huge liability issue for us.

I say you email them back and ask for a SPECIFIC time that any one has ever been injured by a trench. If they have a specific example, or even if they don't, this is really not their liability, because they most likely have some sort of release that is on the back of the ticket or somewhere that says that any old person that falls in a trench there can't sue the ski area, because by purchasing the ticket, they have released all liability from the ski area. Plus all of that "skier's responsibility" code stuff and "unmarked obstacles may be encountered at any time" sort of thing should be made apparant that they can't always to get first tracks.

Or maybe at the start of every run a carver does, they should set a sign that says "warning: trenches ahead. By being within 500 feet of this sign, whether consciously aknowledging its presence or not, you accept the fact that you may have serious injury or even DIE because of another persons small track in this wide-open trail, and any damages caused to you, any of your possessions, or loved ones, is your own responsibility." That should clear things up for people. What a world we live in...

...On the bright side, I guess it is sort of reassuring that we live in a world where people can worry so much about the shape of someone's turn in a recreational snow sport instead of having to worry about feeding ourselves and finding shelter...

[Steve Prokopiw]

Although I feel the same frustation at this development as the rest of the family here, I do want to mention that I actually wait until 10:00 on most days to tear apart my favorite run at Silver so as to give the seniors the chance to ski it before I do. While this may sound like a jab at seniors it is not.It just happens that the only complaints I have ever gotten at Silver have been from seniors and I can understand, to a certain extent,why they might not enjoy having to negotiate the ruts even if it is really a phantom problem.

On the otherhand;at Bachelor and at Silver these folks routinely put their lives into my hands by purposely skiing through my predictable line as a sort of misguided protest;as if I will be the one lying on the ground face down twitching uncontrolably while suffering the effects of a high speed collision. Skiers,and jib monkeys for that matter,of all ages,still do not understand that we do not have eyes in the backs of our helmets.

This whole thing could,and maybe should be taken as a wakeup call to act by choice to enhance the acceptability and viability of our favorite past time,rather than be forced to defend it.

[Petrol]

on my skis too. How would they deal with that ?

BobD

Damage?

I don't see any damage. All I see is a hill that I wish I was on.

[Petrol]

Hard carving shouldn't be a crime! But compared to the terrain park, the liability of our tracks has got to be a pretty small...and completely solvable...problem

Problem?

All it takes is ONE disignated 'skidder' to fill-in/erase any 'Divots' (Trenches)

I'm sure you can identify tens, if not hundreds of 'skidders' for them :rolleyes:

BTW, I have sent No 'Nasty-Grams', all of my correspondance has been quite civil as has their replies :D

[Fastskiguy]

Problem?

All it takes is ONE disignated 'skidder' to fill-in/erase any 'Divots' (Trenches)

Now that's an original idea, slip runs on the carving hill, just like on the race hill!

[johnstewart]

Wow! Just got forwarded this thread and here to add a "Me too!".

I was the MES a few times (sadly, not this year), and I gotta say Welch is one of my favorite hills.

I do recall some old hag bitching at us for "ruining" the ski hill on year. The old farts (screw respect) I'm sure have more pull than a bunch of punk snowboarders.

If I skiied like they did, I would hate it, too. I've slid into carve trenches before (before I knew what I was doing), and it does SUCK.

Sad, though.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

I am speachless, it is completly retarded.

We should have next expresion sesion there insted of aspen.

It would add some more excitment to carving.

[skatha]

Unbelievable.....

I took a skiing lesson at Taos last weekend and my instructor was proud I was carving on skis (you'd be proud, I was way past the pizza-french fry phase my 3rd day on skis)....most skiers skid, too....

In any case, a good damp ski can take a rut. Are these resorts just catering to the vocal idiots?

[Blackbird]

It's really time to get some stickers made for our boards, helmets and cars...

"Carving Is NOT a Crime!!"

Steve

[Kimo]

maybe they should ban everyone...and close down:smashfrea:eplus2:

It's probably been 10 years since an incident when skier hit a tree during night skiing and died at Eldora near Boulder. The response from the ski area was to end night skiing. Well that's great. What should they do if somebody skis into a tree and dies during the daytime?

I just hope they didn't read your post or you might have given them an idea.