Found This Gem of Wisdom in a Myspace Group....

[Bullwings]

i wanna see someone with -3 front and +3 back... pigeon stance??

as for the OP, I think i'd worry about my knees before i started worrying about my hips. I've already had 2 knee surgeries. If my knees feel good, then the rest of me probably feels good as well.

[Rob Stevens]

When I ride my noboard or skate, my unforced angles (no bindings) are exactly where my feet would be if I was sitting on a chair with them off the ground... around 15 and -5.

I'm pretty sure that years of riding a higher angle on my front foot caused it to be more turned out than my back.

All the other angles I ride in bindings are a bit different.

We all want to watch out for dogma. When I talk of an introductory duck lesson, I'm speaking of development age. Besides, D-sub said earlier that most stand duck naturally, so why fight it? The side benefit is equal proficiency in both directions (for kids)and I wish I had that. By the time you're older, or have been riding diretionally for a few years, it's probably too late.

In the last school I ran, we would ask folks to stand relaxed and get an approximate a stance from that. It semed to work pretty well.

CASI states, most non-dogmatically, that you can stand however you want, but when you're at rest (straight running) your hips, torso and shoulders will likely want to be somwhere in the middle of your "splay" (I like that one). The limits of your controlled rotation will generally occur between the angles of your front and back foot.

Uncontrolled rotation is another matter entirely.

I'd like to say that I an stoked with you people and I want to ride with all of you at some point.

[peter_x]

Seems to me there should be something in the middle, not freestyle, not alpine. Something like a 25/10 stance on a directional board

BobD

Ah, Isn't this freeride? ;) Freeride boards are directional, and are made to be ridden with non-duck stances, although I suppose that possibly the majority of riders do so anyway.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm pretty sure that years of riding a higher angle on my front foot caused it to be more turned out than my back.

My main sport is kendo, Japanese fencing, where we are taught a stance with both feet parallel, or as close as we can get. I wonder if that's not partly why I like so little splay? I'm sure that people who naturally walk duck-footed like more splay, their knees would probably feel awkward or restricted in my stance.

[D-Sub]

Besides, D-sub said earlier that most stand duck naturally, so why fight it?

I didnt actually mean that. Im not a proponent of duckboarding ;)

I should point out that you'll want to be careful quoting me here, using something I say to validate anything. You'll lose credibility real fast that way :)

[Bullwings]

Seems to me there should be something in the middle, not freestyle, not alpine. Something like a 25/10 stance on a directional board

BobD

Ah, Isn't this freeride? ;) Freeride boards are directional, and are made to be ridden with non-duck stances, although I suppose that possibly the majority of riders do so anyway.

Yeah, that would be what i consider freeride. I've been riding freerides for 10+ years, and for the past 4 years or so, i've been riding stances close to that 20/10. It was definitely easier for me to carve and transition edge to edge with that stance, compared to the 6/0 that i originally rode when learning. I tried duck stance a few times, but it just felt really weird, almost like I couldn't apply enough force to my toe edge on my back foot.

[BlueB]

Funny that someone mentioned the hip problems on snowboard. As the matter of fact, I never managed to injure my hip neither on skis nor snowboard, except for loosing the edge and falling on ice, but that's different issue. I did injure the groin (same body area) on skis, but I can not imagine this kind of injury on board. Knees, yes, especially on skis. On board, they do feel sore sometimes after few days of hard riding...

As for duck stance, we should distinguish between the natural outwards feet splay that most people have when standing, and mimic in their board stance (and it could be +70/+65 or +10/-5 at the extremes), and actual "duck" riding which implies negative angle on rear foot.

Symmetry is present only if one rode totally equal angles (0/0. +10/-10, etc.) and spend equal amount of time riding both ways, otherwise we are fooling ourselves. For directional riding (FR and alpine) it makes much more sense facing forward, or close to forward (my personal opinion). So, for max visibility and max symmetrical feel between your heel and toe turns, one should really ride 90/90 (skwal). Now, due to narrow tools suitable for 90/90 hardbooting this becomes very unstable ride when not turning. Also, due to inadequate design of soft boots and bindings, it is next to impossible to try these angles even on a narrower board. As the soft boots and bindings are becoming stiffer, and alpine boards wider, it occurs to me that ideal angles would be around 45, compromising between lateral stability, visibility and symmetry between toe/hill turns, as well as including all 3 leg joints in turn dynamics. It is probably a happy medium between alpine and freeride, too.

Stance width is another issue, while wider gives you more stability, it is actually counter productive to natural board flex, edge grip and dampening of the ride. Ideal for flexing would be a single point of pressure and this is what ski industry was aiming for few years now ("floating" bindin/ski interface). Narrow stance would equal better knee flexibility with forward angles, too. Funny enough I found myself widening my stance over the past year.

My own settings are:

40 to 65 angle (depending on board width) with 0-5 splay and ~19" stance, on hard boots;

15 to 35 angle, 10 splay, 20" stance, on soft boots

Boris

[Allee]

When I ride my noboard or skate, my unforced angles (no bindings) are exactly where my feet would be if I was sitting on a chair with them off the ground... around 15 and -5.

I was thinking about that and came to the conclusion that I still ride my snowboard exactly the same way I rode a skateboard the first time. Just jump on it and there you are. Is that a "bad thing", or is that my body just automatically telling me this is where I'm most comfortable, and most mechanically advantaged? Would that not be a good start point for an adult beginner, rather than forcing them into a duck or some other mandated snow school stance?

It's funny to think about the things you were taught when you started snowboarding, skating, whatever. Trends come and go, I guess, and it seems everyone is always pretty fast to bag on whatever is now on the way "out", and fiercely justify what's supposed to be "in". I just think it's sad that we seem to be breeding a generation of people who don't live by the "suck it and see" rule, but spend much of their time trying to be "cool" and "correct".

Interestingly enough, I was talking to someone last night whose kid took ski lessons last year. She was amazed that they no longer teach them to snowplow, but start them from parallel with a wide stance from Day 1. So I guess we should start hearing how bad snowplow is any day now?

[BlueB]

Interestingly enough, I was talking to someone last night whose kid took ski lessons last year. She was amazed that they no longer teach them to snowplow, but start them from parallel with a wide stance from Day 1. So I guess we should start hearing how bad snowplow is any day now?

Totaly oposite to CSIA program. I teach 3-12yr olds. We teach them to walk on skis first (sort of) and then to assume "pizza" shape (snowplow), then to stop using the snowplow, then to turn using snowplow. Only after they can do well the above (sometimes within first 2hrs) they progress to other things (chair lift, drils to paralel turn, etc.) So, even if the snowplow phase could be short, it is still a great teaching tool and regularly done.

Boris

[Mike T]

I had hip problems before I ever started snowboarding. They certainly haven't gotten any worse and in fact have gotten better since I found a good chiropractor. When I ride softies it's usually about 24/15, plates is mid-50's.

[Jack M]

In CASI, we've batted around the idea of setting up all development-age riders dead-equal duck and introducing left and right foot-forward turns to them at the same time.

Utter nonsense. I suppose we should be teaching all kids to bat switch, golf switch, and write with both hands too? In my 4 years of instructing, the most hopeless were the kids who couldn't decide whether they were regular or goofy. Can you say "terminal falling leaf", followed by a quick return to skis?

Let me guess - this was proposed by someone in the rental department who hates turning screws.

[Kirk]

Directional riding is absolutely going to give you an assymetrical physique.

Think of how you stand on your board when you only ride one way and the muscular and skeletal requirements and adjustments that arise from that. A good way to know you're doing something unbalanced to your body when riding left or right foot forward exclusively, is to think about how your back leg felt after your last pow day. This has to have an overall phisiological effect over time. Moreso if you ride alot.

All I can say about this is that, if my weight distribution is balanced and consistent throughout the turns, my legs get a very even, symetrical workout. This while riding in the 54-60 deg range, 3-5 deg splay. I'll know that I need to adjust my riding when I start feeling significant fatigue in one leg and not the other. I really don't feel that this is a function of my forward stance.

For riding pow, I can see how being able to ride switch equally well may minimize the "rear leg burn" issue IF you are consistently/conscientiously riding both directions. If you can get through a knee deep day without some notable burning and fatigue on your rear leg, I say good on ya mate!

[Kirk]

My main sport is kendo, Japanese fencing, where we are taught a stance with both feet parallel, or as close as we can get. I wonder if that's not partly why I like so little splay? I'm sure that people who naturally walk duck-footed like more splay, their knees would probably feel awkward or restricted in my stance.

Interesting concept presented here. I trained for many years in Wing Chun Kung Fu and the fighting posture/forward stance is very simalar to my binding angles and stance width, except that the stance is slightly open for balance while sparring/fighting. Feels VERY comfy and natural.

[skategoat]

Utter nonsense. I suppose we should be teaching all kids to bat switch, golf switch, and write with both hands too? In my 4 years of instructing, the most hopeless were the kids who couldn't decide whether they were regular or goofy. Can you say "terminal falling leaf", followed by a quick return to skis?

Let me guess - this was proposed by someone in the rental department who hates turning screws.

But....when you snowboard, especially slopestyle or halfpipe, you want to be able to ride switch. It's a requirement if you're going to be any good at it. In golf, baseball, writing, it's not a requirement, just a nice to have. So I would say there's definite advantage in being able to ride a snowboard both ways.

I wish I could ride fakie. I get turned around and I'm like Bambi on ice.

[No.2]

Very interesting thread guys. Threads with mention of softies here often seem to get a bit feisty don't they. With regards to the asym stance issue in my opinion I think it can be valuable to do things backwards. I find that it improves my favored way quite a bit. I play air hockey left handed, ultimate firsbee both ways which is great in that game like Lacrosse and when I started snow boarding I rode Goofy the first season Regular the next, Goofy the next and now Regular for one and a half seasons. I'm looking forward to going back to Goofy next year. This has slowed down the learning curve a touch but added some depth that is hard to quantify but I am greatfull for. I had a very open minded Gym instructor at school that gave us the whole try every thing and do it back wards at least once speech on our last day of school. I personally would like to see more of that. It's been great watching vids of PSR rideing switch with apline stances.

You know what I think I'm going to try a duck stance on my BX board in hard boots just for ****s and giggles. See if I can drag my nipple tassles!

With regards to hips. I met a 78 yo skier this year that was raving about his new hip saying it was way better than his original ones and now he can ski all through his 80s! Good man!

[RJ-PS]

Interesting concept presented here. I trained for many years in Wang Chung Kung Fu and the fighting posture/forward stance is very simalar to my binding angles........Feels VERY comfy and natural.

AAAhhhhhhhh yes, perhaps everybody should Wang Chung tonight, I mean all season.

You can tell from those pictures.....they ride hardboots.

[Kirk]

AAAhhhhhhhh yes, perhaps everybody should Wang Chung tonight, I mean all season.

You can tell from those pictures.....they ride hardboots.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

See, someone gets it!!

And they sure look like they can fight too :rolleyes:

[Kirk]

Very interesting thread guys. Threads with mention of softies here often seem to get a bit feisty don't they.

Yes, but this is not a "soft boots vs hard boots" discussion. Just different schools of thought presented on stance - preference, pros and cons. Plenty of people ride softies on this forum. Might be interesting poll among soft boot riders here as far as stance pref goes.

[BobD]

Ah, Isn't this freeride? Freeride boards are directional, and are made to be ridden with non-duck stances, although I suppose that possibly the majority of riders do so anyway. peter_x

Yes, but no one is teaching freeride. When middle aged and athletically challenged people turn up for thier first snowboard lesson

But....when you snowboard, especially slopestyle or halfpipe, you want to be able to ride switch. It's a requirement if you're going to be any good at it. In golf, baseball, writing, it's not a requirement, just a nice to have. So I would say there's definite advantage in being able to ride a snowboard both ways.

- Skategoat

Isn't it ridiculous to assume they will all want to hit the park. In fact the majority of boarders I see are happy just going down the hill.

I think this is an example of something that is common in sports instruction.

When a teaching model is perfected for a given action, it sometimes takes on a life of it's own. All sorts of reasons are thought of to justify it.

It certainly simplifies the job of the instructor if everyone has to learn with one stance. It is not meeting the needs of the students though.

Snowboarding is a big enough sport to evolve many facets. These could have a direct entry level and not have classes that are predisposed to freestyle as a generic beginner class for all boarders.

BobD

[skategoat]

I hear what you're saying Bob. But I guess it's easier to teach them to ride both ways in the beginning than to try an asym stance at first then introduce them to duck when they want to ride park. That's always hard.

[110/220V]

"Quaaaaaaaaaaackquackquackquack!"

[Rob Stevens]

Utter nonsense.

I love this s#!t.

As a guy with a whopping "four years" in teaching, you may have noticed the ability for kids to learn snowboarding with just about any stance they're given.

The thought that arose from that observation (in a group of 5, with about a 100+ years of teaching, collectively) was why not suggest a stance that is comfortable (much like you stand normally), does not inhibit performance and can promote directional dexterity?

For adults, or anyone with prior boardsport experience, the question should be "what makes you comfortable? Asking questions and observing is usually the most effective way to get someone set up properly.

For kids with no experience, asking them what angles they want their bindings at will get you a "Huh?". Even left or right forward can be tough to read with someone who has done no prior side-sliding. Width is easier to nail down, with a persons body size and shape really guiding you there.

I don't think an average school age student would be disadvantaged in this stance. The reality is that in a one hour lesson, you're lucky to get past pendulum (falling leaf) safely. In a two hour, a couple of turns is a great accomplishment. After that, anything is a bonus and if I had a chance to get the kid back, I'd ask them if they wanted to learn to ride the other way too.

If they wanted to be the next Urs Eiselin, then no... If Shaun White was their hero, I'm sure they'd be into it.

On the subject of forcing students into stances, it always seems to come down to the attitude of the trainer rubbing off on the instructor. If you beleive that a viable way to ride is "utter nonsense" and this dogma is passed on to the staff, they'll likely be as inflexible as the trainer and start teaching in absolutes. This is the same reason that hardboot teaching is pretty much dead... everyone was told that that stance was no good.

It seems to me that everyone here has a different way of looking at riding and the teacher that can bring the most variety to a learning environment wins.

Oh yeah... If the kids goal was to be a great rider (these are their goals, after all) I would encourage them to hit switch to the point that there was no "switch".

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Play nice now boys.

You are both pretty "fart smellers" and we don't want to nip something

potentially very good for the future with a little miss communications.

That said:

I expect the race world to adopt Asysmetric snowboards as the

cutting edge technology within 5 years. :p

After all Kessler does build them!

Enjoy!

[D-Sub]

You know what I think I'm going to try a duck stance on my BX board in hard boots just for ****s and giggles. See if I can drag my nipple tassles!

oh god. seriously?

if you do, buy AFLAC, and then PLEASE post PICS!

seems that at minimum youd need 25 or so front and back...and...whoa...-25 rear?

heh.

again, PICS are absolutely required on this one

Hey Rob...you're the new hothead! I am officially relieved of duty

[D-Sub]

Even left or right forward can be tough to read with someone who has done no prior side-sliding.

everyone Ive ever met, I simply ask them to running and sliding on a frozen pond and tell me which foot they would put forward

100% effective in my experience.

not that I have a piece of paper assuring me that I can teach someone how to do something effectively.

funny though...my ex gf = practically incurable "falling leaf" syndrome.