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NMU Alpine Boarder

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everyone Ive ever met, I simply ask them to running and sliding on a frozen pond and tell me which foot they would put forward

100% effective in my experience.

not that I have a piece of paper assuring me that I can teach someone how to do something effectively.

funny though...my ex gf = practically incurable "falling leaf" syndrome.

When I bought my first snowboard, the guy in the shop pushed me and I put out my right foot to stop from falling. He pronounced "You are Goofy". Two days of bruised ass made me re-think that conclusion and even the whole snowboarding thing. I gave it another try with left foot forward and voila, much easier. Maybe I just finally "got it" or maybe it was the stance - who knows. I tend to think for a beginner, you can throw any stance at them and they'll flail around just the same.

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When I bought my first snowboard, the guy in the shop pushed me and I put out my right foot to stop from falling. He pronounced "You are Goofy". Two days of bruised ass made me re-think that conclusion and even the whole snowboarding thing. I gave it another try with left foot forward and voila, much easier. Maybe I just finally "got it" or maybe it was the stance - who knows. I tend to think for a beginner, you can throw any stance at them and they'll flail around just the same.

Yeah, if you have no prior boarding experience at all, I don't think it matters. I was 12-13 when i first started and I never touched my bindings for the next 2 years once they were set. I just learned to ride the very first setup that was given to me, and didn't know any better. Hell, I didn't even notice that I was riding my board backwards with the slightly narrower tail taper always in front and pointing down the hill.

What I did notice and learn on the first day, though, was which foot liked to be in front and which one liked to be in back. I definitely think the "running and sliding on ice/hardwood floor with socks" method works better than the "push them over backwards and see which foot they save their ass with" method for determining goofy or regular.

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On the subject of forcing students into stances, it always seems to come down to the attitude of the trainer rubbing off on the instructor. If you beleive that a viable way to ride is "utter nonsense" and this dogma is passed on to the staff, they'll likely be as inflexible as the trainer and start teaching in absolutes. This is the same reason that hardboot teaching is pretty much dead... everyone was told that that stance was no good.

It seems to me that everyone here has a different way of looking at riding and the teacher that can bring the most variety to a learning environment wins.

Oh yeah... If the kids goal was to be a great rider (these are their goals, after all) I would encourage them to hit switch to the point that there was no "switch".- Rob Stevens

Definitives, absolutes and dogma are the bain of instruction. I totally agree that kids, teens and young adults might be best served by learning to be at ease which ever direction they are pointed. A beginner program for them should at the very least teach nothing that would hinder progress toward freestyle and better teach the foundational concepts of freestyle.

That said , If someone would come to me for a kayak lesson to help them paddle around small lakes and calm rivers in a touring kayak, I would not put them in a rodeo kayak (uncomfortable at first) and teach them concepts which are part of the whitewater program. That's equivelent of what is happening to people who just want to cruise the hill on a board. There should be the oppertunity to choose between a freestyle program or a freeride program.

Most importantly, the logical progression of a freeride program would be alpine.

Now if Burton were to come up with a radical new board for the freeride specialist rider with bindings that are designed to be mounted pointing forward and made the whole package look cool .......

BobD

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Regarding the "push someone forward and see which foot they stop themselves with" idea...it just plain doesn't work.

I guess it might work if we were all more-or-less blank slates...maybe.

There are a huge number of activities that will set it up so that if you are pushed forward and catch yourself with foot[1] then foot[2] should go forward.

I catch myself with my left foot. I'm hardcore goofy. I think this comes from kicking. I'm much stronger with my right foot/leg, and so I put my left leg forward so that I can whip around my right foot in a horizontal snap.

It would be interesting to see a chart of statistics on how people's correlation is. Eg. Right/left handed; right/left leg best for kicking; right/left leg goes up for single-foot jumping; running and sliding with one foot forward; etc.

Actually, I think the foot-forward slide might work out well...can anyone with decent experience with new snowboarders confirm/deny this?

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My stance was predetermined by my waterskiing days. I knew my right foot had to go up front before I learned the goofy term.

My preferred angles come from slalom on the water too. ~65/65 give or take 5deg.

In softies on my first rental board I had to set my own angles on a tool bench outside the shop. Rental guy refused to set anything steeper than 15/0. He wanted me to ride duck but that didn't and still doesn't interest me. after finding anything above 45 difficult in softies I had some pretty good results with 39/30.

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Goofy = right leg forward. But I step forward with my left, as that's what I do if I'm stepping into a strong kick, which would involve my right leg moving through the air.

Edit: My right foot is forward while I am on a snowboard. When I am not on a snowboard, and I am pushed forward, my left foot moves forward to catch myself.

Edit2: Although...for non-carving, swishy-swishy (No, I don't know another term for it, and yes, I did just make that up) I have my front (right) foot in place, and swivel my rear foot around it...

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From lurking around on the AASI boards, starting people duck is considered a good way of determining natural stance. That way, you can sort it out on the hill without being forced one way or the other.

Thanks for sticking in here under fire, Rob - you're making us all think, that's a good thing.

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I an no longer regular or goofy....

From now on I am standing sideways!!!!!!!

Race gear: 50-45sl 45-40gs

free ride gear: angles, based on width

freestyle gear:18- -9

Kite board- Truley a twin 18- -18

I stand sideways with one foot going down the hill first...

I will ride goofy for the first few days of the year before the good stuff opens.

I then usally move to regular.

I have taught so many lessions it doesnt make sense to even discuss stance.

As long as the rider feels comfortable and balanced they can proform well.

Their are some mins and maxs limits that take the body out of alinement.

But if any one has given enough lessions they have seen the person sent out on a board set up so wrong no on should be able to ride it. But some how the learn and progress.( I am not saying you should not try to put your student in a comfy stance but some times during large groups etc. you may not have time)

The person on borrowed gear that is to BIG or to SMALL can face more issues learning then some one with the wrong foot foward. The simple answer for many is the 15 15 factor. My friend Shawn runs Burtons learn to ride program. He is also some big shot at AASI. They have proven that you can increase the learning curve by using a total system involing board shape , flex and boot support. I think The progression of teacing has proven you can accomplish all of the fundemntals of riding in a single day with a average in shape person. How ever Board-Boots and Stance have a lot to do with indavidual progress which is of course also based on the Balance-Skill and listening-prossessing power of the student.

Although the stance that person needs is going to vary finding a "set" or common stance for teacihng only eases the process for those teaching by providing a base to structure a lesson around. It allows the student to do drills in on dirrection then turn around and just to the mirriored turn.

However there are still issues Like some have stated the number one issue I see with the Duck 15-15 stance is mant rider devolop a strong turn. Like the toe side feels great so that all the student does once out side the lession. This habit devolops quickly with younger students and unleashes them on the hill with the comfort or a multi dirrectional turn and stop. But are they really riding well after lesson one?

Obviously the 15- -15 stance solves the regular goofy ? but any first or second year instructor should be able to spot the tells of a miss stanced rider behaps there need to be some screw turning to fix the problem Big woop are you teach some oe ab out the sport you love, or are you running a assembly line to make more riders to sell more product like the Firm???

I am not a fan of AASI or any Creative guidlines laid out by some cat who feels their way is the RIGHT or BEST way. Any istrutor should have the talent to adjust to fit any and all students in the class. Also I hate the fact that these governing bodies get all of there "talented upper level instructors" together to "clinic" new instructors and brain wash them into their way of teaching and thinking. When many of the clinitions have been so far out of the real first timer experance that they cant even remember what its like to learn from scratch.

The "I think every one needs to be able to ride in both dirrection crap" is a bogus outlook on a already challenging sport. Sure at the upper levels it is a skill that needs to be taught but to include the Idea day 1 only increase the level of diffaculty for the begginer. A begginer who has payed to learn to snowboard and will probably onle take a few lession ever!!

Riders that need continued support from instructors through out their riding, have goals and ideas about how they would like to ride. It is one thing to have a student say I want to ride both ways, always. Versus I want to learn to ride. Let the student pick thier goals first few days. Not AASI.

The 20 some thing life long surfer-skater-skimboarder is going to have a better time if you show them the basics and unleash them with their natural stance then if you follow the 15- -15 rule and show them both direction.

How many of you really play with your stance?

I move mine depending on board width-length-flex-type....

It is very easy to adjust you riding to a new stance in just a run or two. Why not teach people how to ride then worry about stance.

Sure its nessacary to have a max min but most schools agree as long as the angles are between 0-30 the student should be able to learn.

Look at stapless board sports athletes and their stances. Skater Surfers etc. It rare to see a surfer stand Duck. Or a pool skater, skimboarder in the surf or on the sand.... Not duck.

Sure it cool to go both ways but the fact that AASI has made it standerd is a slap in the face of any athlete, installed by a bunch of overthinking rider who beleive its their job to set the standards when in realality they are years behind the real snowboarding progression set by Pro athletes not Pro teachers.. Being able to do any trick switch has always added to the diffaculty because it is harder to go to the non natural stance. To beleive that creating new riders who do not care witch way the stand is just False it will always be easier to stand on way then the other, for just about everyone why not use that to help them progress???????

Perhaps we should start riding and debeteing about riding on our hands!

That should be the next step right If we try to provide symatrey for and aft why not up and down also?

Mid run we should all be able to stick our feet up hands in the bindings and make the same turns using the same imput AASI taught us that whould stay on track with theie Ideas. True that.

Billy

I love anyone that stands sideways unless they are backwards???????????

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Seems to me there should be something in the middle, not freestyle, not alpine. Something like a 25/10 stance on a directional board that people could have some simple fun with.

BobD

When I started on softies 12 years ago at 36 y.o. that is about where I was angle-wise, and ended up @ 30f/25r + or - and felt very comfortable with it. That was set up for me by a snowboard tech in-shop btw. If I had been forced to ride duck it probably would have put me off of snowboarding.
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I started riding in '90 and set up at a goofy stance with 15 front -9 rear. I did that becasue I came from a skiing background and wanted to really carve in both directions. It felt great while I had young knees and could flex them in opposite directions easily. I took my level 1 exam in '93 and was told that I would never make it very far riding duck and that I needed to have a more forward stance. At this time most of the trainers were riding hardboots becasue they were also skiing converts. In 99 I took my level 2 and I was told by both of my examiners that I should move right on to my level 3 because I was what they were looking for. At this point I was riding everywhere and all disciplines and putting a lot of time into it and had been teaching for 7 years. I ended up getting married and having kids and didn 't get around to a level 3 until 2004. I had been doing more hardbooting and decided that I liked a more forward stance on my freestyle board -- 27 front, 18 rear. I still ride switch in the pipe and carve that way, and can do it as proficiently as before becasue I practiced. In this exam all the examiners showed up duck(one of them was the same guy I had waaaaayyyyy back in my level 1) and told me I'd never get anywhere riding a forward stance and that I should switch to duck.

It just proves to me that things are all based on trends. I agree with Bordy that you need to find what is comfortable for you or your student based on what you're riding and how. I also wouldn't be surprised to see AASI saying that duck is wrong in about 10 years. BEst way to learn to ride switch is to just do it, and do it in whatever stance is most comfortable for the type of riding you do most. If you ride switch all the time then maybe go duck, if you spend most of your time carving in one directiopn then just practice riding switch in whatever stance you have. It is an important skill to have, but there is not really a "right" way and a "wrong" way as long as you can ride it. I've seen a guy rip a slalom course at an event riding switch on his hardboard. Obviously not the best way to do it, but he was good enough and obviously had practiced switch so he could. I'm rambling now so I'll just stop :smashfrea

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BINGO!!

I love your story! Classic.

I can't tell you how many times I have watched people eat their own words.

Watch, learn, try numerous methods and tools, use what works for you.

It is certainly fair to exchange differing ideas. Seldom does attaching a "Right" or "Wrong" really help the progression. Simply closes doors.

Had we listened to the majority in the early days of snowboarding, well, we would not be snowboarders :rolleyes:

Now go ride :)

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I like where you're going with that "I stand sideways" stuff, Billy.

I'd like to think that future high end athletes will be able to claim that. True multi-directional riding will be a milestone in freestyle.

The hostility is fair, though about the percieved dogmatic approach some trainers have.

When we started what is now CASI back in the late 80's, the riders who were involved were very open minded people who saw all solid suggestions as "teaching tools". Along the way , the organisation became larger, requiring some standardization of approach that could be trained in a canned sort of way. Certain tools where "highlighted" as the ones to use in a one time beginner lesson.

When these lessons were trained on courses, the presenters gave the most attention to the favoured exercises and would metion breifly other things you could do with students to improve the same skills (stance and balance, edging, ect...)

The problem that arises, however, that when you have increasing numbers of Level 1 trainers presenting the material, you don't always wind up with lateral thinkers who can find alternate routes around a problem. certain personalities come away with a "this is the way we do it" sort of attitude.

I can honestly say that I have been shocked myself at how senior evaluators over the history of CASI have had pretty closed minds.

This is just the way of the world... In every group of 10 people, you'll have 3 cool folks, 2 nazis, a couple of tech-heads and a few more gapers who don't have much going at all and are just along for the ride, parroting whatever they've been told.

If you have friends, you now what I'm talking about.

Would all your friends make great teachers? Well, if they took the conversation I had with my Tech Committee about how duck MIGHT work as an AVERAGE way of approaching beginners as ABSOLUTE GOSPEL and made it their mission to teach THAT WAY ONLY, at the expense of all other useful tools... well, I think their future students would be best served if they stuck with their old job.

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...Billy, I do think your comment about strapless sport riders not having their back foot turned out a bit on average is funny. I would ask you to look again.

I also think it's ironic how a person expousing openness can say that past performance envelopes will dictate what might be normal in the future.

Once again, CASI is not saying that duck is the way... it just might work for some. I like it, but I won't ram it down anyones throat.

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...Billy, I do think your comment about strapless sport riders not having their back foot turned out a bit on average is funny. I would ask you to look again.

Any strapless athlete will move there feet on the board to achive maxamum control. I watch straplees kiters change ther feet from regular to goofy all day, Even though almost all kite boards are set up duck when straps are installed when the rider has the choice where to put their feet it is rarley duck. Sure ther are some people who profer duck but not many. Ant this is in a sport that forces riding in both direction.

I was at the skate park yesterday not many riders duck footed but then again there is a lot going on when you kick and flip so your foot position is more for POP then stability, When you watch some one ride Pool they are always moving their feet, myself included.

"I also think it's ironic how a person expousing openness can say that past performance envelopes will dictate what might be normal in the future."

Who says or said that??? Are you sure your not just reading things how you want?

Once again, CASI is not saying that duck is the way... it just might work for some. I like it, but I won't ram it down anyones throat.

Woo way to catch up with the Duck ideas that AASI has been pushing since the mid 90's and it sure seems like you would like me to see things your way? I have already delt with the duck issue first time around. My stance stays the same Its your stance do what you want.

Also do you really think it nice to use statements like "IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS" in post.

You sort of sound like a Parrot to me..

Talking about your tech board conversations your Ideas the CASI etc.....

I think I thought you where rob from snowproformance. But its starting to seem like your not.

Have we meet?

Do I know you?

Do you really think You need to continue your personal veiws based on what you think is a creditable back ground with, more of the same statements.

We get it you think Duck is a great teaching tool and you and your "Tech commitee can keep shaping the current trends in Canada. Problem is they are just trends in teaching and as most long term riders and teachers know trends change.

Also how is your current level of switch riding have you practiced as you preached. DO you ride the same stance you set up your first timers?

When is the last time you or any of your TECH COMMITEE taught a first time groups all day?

Or did you just stand back with the rest of the jaded Senior staff

I can honestly say that I have been shocked myself at how senior evaluators over the history of CASI have had pretty closed minds.

You said it! are you sure you dont fit right into this group? It sounds like it to me. Even your post are filled with conformations. Stuff like"I like where you're going with that "I stand sideways" stuff, Billy."

Wow thanks for the props just like you are the teacher and I am the students. Do you like where I am going with this.

You seem like a guy with some back ground but It also appears you think you are the Gosphel.

I know a few things my self and disagree with you. Bummer get over it.

You can consult with your tech commitee all you want I am positive there are thousands of people who would sit down and rip your ideas to shreads I am possitive I would! However I dont see it as a right or wrong I only see it as technigues used for teaching some thing in your bag of tricks.

Snowboarding is a super easy sport that produces millions of riders If you really think all riders inspire to be what you and your TECH COMMITEE think then I feel poorly for any rider you teach. How did any one learn prior to the AASI PISA CISA!

Any one with or with out any experance can teach a first timer how to ride The fact that you and your Tech Commitee feels as though they should be deciding how is just a joke you all tell yourselves at night to pretend that you are important, its a common issue with instrutors (more so with one who think they are molding the future). You spend so much time telling people what to do you find it hard to listen to others.

I was skating the other day. I watch a little girl about ten years old practicing how to drop in on a three foot 1/4 pipe then that same little girl dissapeared and then returned 10 minutes later with 2 little friends in less then 5 minutes she had taught both of them how to drop in, a skill she just learned 10 minutes ago. She did this with out any formal clinics or testing, she had not recived training how to teach but she had no problems sharing her stoke with others and after those three little girls went over and tried a bigger 1/4 pipe.

THAT IS REAL TEACHING WITH REAL RESULTS. Those girls had a blast and will keep on skating. And tried to push their own learning to the next level.

Do you really think The CASI had anything to do with that gem of instruction.

Step out of the box bring your tech commitee with you!

Most riders only take begginer lessons so perhaps thats why its so important for the CASI to decide how to teah it. Of course that Ten year old skater girl would do a better job teacing her friend them you or your TECH COMMITEE could becuase they are her friends.

Perhaps you should work on you people skills a bit since they seem to be a bit rough on line. Maybe a little change in your outlook would have a bigger impact then how you set up your students feet?

Rob I of course am writing just as if I were speaking.

I of course understand your invlment in teaching but also feel you your self reflect the instructor input and of course favor that way of thinking, teaching, etc. becuase you are a part of that "culture"

Many of the veiws I have come from a lifelong dedication to the sport. So they should differ. Thats a good thing.

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Interesting conversation.

When I learned to snowboard, I was also another crossover from skiing. My knees had gotten so bad I couldn't walk after a day skiing. Snowboarding did away with the pain. However, I was never interested in half-pipes, rails, etc. I don't like all that stuff. I'd much rather ride the mountain. Groomers, off-piste, back country, powder, etc. Carving appeals to me as a end and as a foundation for general riding. As a result, I started with hardboots. I've never ridden anything else and don't plan to. I like the control and "locked in" feeling.

I also teach. I don't teach snowboarding. I teach one of the competitive action shooting games. However, there are a lot of parallels to be drawn as to approach and outlook.

I've had students that were just learning and others that wanted to improve. I even have one that won the World Championship after a little over a year of working together.

Here are some of the things that I've learned.

- In order to be successful, you need to understand the goals of each student. Is the student going to ride the pipe? Ride off-piste? Carve? etc. Depending on what it is that they are interested in, the lesson needs to go that way so that you can meet their goal. If it's a first timer group lesson, there are fundamentals that need to be taught, but everyone learns differently and your approach needs to be very flexible. That includes stance angles and learning to ride switch, etc. I would have had a very frustrating experience trying to learn from someone who's locked int duck and pipe. I sought out an appropriate instructor.

- Equipment matters. Having the right equipment for the job at hand will make for a more successful outing and much less frustration for both the student and the teacher. Since I don't want to ride pipe, and do want to carve, I went stright away with hard boots and a Burton M6 alpine board. Trying to ride the way I enjoy on soft boots and a freestyle board just wouldn't be nearly the fun.

- You can't teach unless you can convey the information at several different levels and in several different ways. If you are trying to teach someone to carve toeside, they may not understand the first or even 2nd attempt to convey the concept. You may have to try a couple of different methods to get it across.

- Some things you want to teach, some folks will not be able to do, or will not work for them. There are alternatives if the instructor is willing to make the effort to look for them.

In other words, everyone learns differently and has a different focus. Tailor your approach and be flexible. Otherwise both the student and teacher will be frustrated. Locking into one method closes the mind and makes learning much more difficult.

Leave the doors open.

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You certainly do sound agressive from time to time... (EC/Sword topics in the past, and now this)

You do have a lot to say and I enjoy reading your posts - plenty of good technical info. Just, your passion for the sport can be missinterpreted easily...

Rob, this is what you get for mentioning "duck" to bunch of hardbooters ;)

But it's all great, we can only progress with exchange of ideas!

Keep firing guys - first snow is still few weeks away in these parts :(

Regards all,

Boris

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I'll quote you some here, Billy...

Also do you really think it nice to use statements like "IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS" in post.

---I didn't mean it like that. I sure don't have to read between the lines to tell how much respect you have for others.

To beleive that creating new riders who do not care witch way the stand is just False it will always be easier to stand on way then the other, for just about everyone why not use that to help them progress???????

---You called me out for claiming you have a bias to an old way of thinking. Do you not think one possible future for freestyle atletes or dedicated f/s riders could be multi directional balance and ability, to the point where they can do it expertly? ONCE AGAIN... this is not a hard and fast for teaching beginners, but if their goal was to be a high end freestyler, they might want to explore this thought with their coach.

You can consult with your tech commitee all you want I am positive there are thousands of people who would sit down and rip your ideas to shreads I am possitive I would! However I dont see it as a right or wrong I only see it as technigues used for teaching some thing in your bag of tricks.

---I said the same thing. It was an idea "batted around" for discussion. I sound like a broken record here, but I'm pretty sure I said "it's a tool". Use it or dont. The idea is to not bag on anything that may work out, for whatever reason.

Snowboarding is a super easy sport that produces millions of riders If you really think all riders inspire to be what you and your TECH COMMITEE think then I feel poorly for any rider you teach. How did any one learn prior to the AASI PISA CISA!

---I learned by falling alot and watching others. Now, people don't have to play it that way. If you get someone as a teacher who knows how to do the job, you'll probably get it faster than the time it would take a 12 year old who just learned it for a teacher. When someone lays down the $, they want fun and results.

Any one with or with out any experance can teach a first timer how to ride The fact that you and your Tech Commitee feels as though they should be deciding how is just a joke you all tell yourselves at night to pretend that you are important, its a common issue with instrutors (more so with one who think they are molding the future). You spend so much time telling people what to do you find it hard to listen to others.

---You're probably right about my listening skills, but it seems that in many respects, we're on the same page, so I wonder if you're listening to me?

I was skating the other day. I watch a little girl about ten years old practicing how THAT IS REAL TEACHING WITH REAL RESULTS. Those girls had a blast and will keep on skating. And tried to push their own learning to the next level.

---That's great. Many people learn from friends. I always try the experimental stuff on mine (as limited in # as they are). Usually they wind up on their asses alot.

Perhaps you should work on you people skills a bit since they seem to be a bit rough on line. Maybe a little change in your outlook would have a bigger impact then how you set up your students feet?

---Good one coming from you, fella.

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