Can carving survive without racing?

[James Ong]

Where would hardbooting be with out Racing?

This got me thinking, we have seen numerous manufacturers dropping their alpine line in the past 8 or so years. Olympic racing is now down to 1 event where as i used to see 3 on tv (correct me if i'm wrong).

If racing were to disappear altogether, would the remaining alpine providers survive ? Does recreational carving by itself provide enough customers ?

If deeluxe and head were to stop producing boots, would we be up sh-t creek? I would hate to make do with ski boots.

[kipstar]

I think as long as there is some market, that the makers will be able to justify making the same boots from the same molds; there is a fair bit of cost for the molds.

But without racing, then it will reduce the market since some people race to avoid school, please the parents etc ; so I could see the market shrinking even further...not good.

However, I think there would be perhaps consolidation with fewer manufacturers, but if say head and others shut, then it would still leave deeluxe doing ok....

I actually think all the cut price dumping of oxygen stuff and others doesn't do anyone any favours long term for the sport (other than us building some big quivers)... manufacturers hvae to make money and there needs to be some decent distribution channels to ensure that the stuff remains out there. I looked at Mt Rose and was pretty happy with the scene, although there is not so much growth in the sport yet, with people representing like you, it encourages others to get into it.

As long as there is growth, then we can onward and upward right? That's the beauty of bomber and catek and so on; they provide the info and the channel to distribute; we need physical places as well, otherwise it just is so underground no one knows about the sport.

[astrokel]

Is the question,

"Can carving survive without racing?"

or is it,

Can hardbooting survive without racing?

To the first possibility (the one on top of this thread):

YES of course. Carving exists in all the equipment disciplines. I started on softboots (Clickers) with the intent ONLY to carve with them, my other option was for hardboots but I was a bit hesitant not liking skiing one bit. I find carving in softies rather enjoyable, it's more dynamic than in my hardboots forcing my body to move further to find the bend limits of the soft boots, the softer the boot the further I have to move... There are more issues but I'm sure they'll get addressed :)

To the second possibility, the one implied:

Probably? How many hardcore mountaineerer's are out there needing high mountain plastic boots (I have no idea of this discipline btw), the point being if there is a market there will be a product. The issue is if the product is exactly what the market wants, the bigger the market the more choices, the smaller the market the product will either address the lowest common denominator or if the producer is smart they will provide a product that could be the basis of tweaking by the consumer. Just look at motorcycling pre 70's there were basically two types of bikes, scramblers (dirt bikes) and street bikes (yeah and board racers, racing etc but I'm talking about the normal consumer items...) and different sizes but that's about it... The specialist bikes that have been coming out in the last 30 years or so is a relatively new phenomena.

If survival is the question I think it isn't a problem. It'll just get more interesting for the tinkerer's out there (like Fin for instance and all of us with a Dremel :) ) if the big guys bow out. (watch Mad-Max films if you're interested what's possible :) )

[Phil]

If deeluxe and head were to stop producing boots, would we be up sh-t creek?

No, more people would be riding UPZ boots.

I believe racing is crucial to our sport, especially for R & D. That being said, I believe that the vast majority of hardbooters do not actually race. Therefore the market would still be there.

[C5 Golfer]

No, more people would be riding UPZ boots.

I believe racing is crucial to our sport, especially for R & D. That being said, I believe that the vast majority of hardbooters do not actually race. Therefore the market would still be there.

I am with Phil... and I am not a racer. Being an old Fart.. I hard boot for the main purpose that soft boots tend to hurt my ankles more when riding high speed thru the crud we have on the west coast. Hard boots fixed that. I do not need a bunch of replys saying try this soft boot or what soft boot did you ride or what bindings - I tried a bunch and same problem and it is 100% fixed with AF600s and TDs - I won't go back. So I hope hard booting market grows a bit bigger each year.

[Bordy]

Part of my Original outlook when I started riding hard boots was the joy of competition requardless of what type it was, Half pipe, SL, GS, SG, BC. I think its interesting to see the views from non racers. I of course have a different view involving the industry and the R and D work conducted on a race course(the most extreme conditions carving is based on). The skill stoke and knowledge former racers bring in the industry, Lots end up being designers and builder of the current gear we ride.

Sean Martin is pimping his Olympic construction currently, that’s all race based. I am not sure he would have taken his product to level needed to be competitive with out the necessity and opportunity to compare his product with others in such a format. Most major Carving board manufactures do all there R&D on the race hill and then dumb it down for the masses. I think if board manufactures were forced to build product based on the input of your hills local ripper then we would not achieve the same results. When a seasoned Pro, competing every weekend or so, training every day, some days doubles, in course under the worse conditions for “carving” provide! You may start with a product that is “dumb down” to begin with.

I know there are a handful of riders out there that believe the have all the skills Pro racers have developed, but its also the same people who remain uneducated or unexposed because they have never competed or ridden at that level. It can truly be a shock to some what skills these riders have. If racing was to dissolve, these skills would not be refined to the current level. And many of the riders may see a decline in there ability with nothing to train for. It would remove the True upper level of the sport that excels well above and beyond this little “carving community”. Boots would degrade in quality to fit the “Free carve masses”( not that most boots don’t already suck anyway) perhaps forcing manufactures to use the old molds as one poster hinted. Keeping the non progressing riders right in check. With out better gear on a progressive schedule we would continue to see riders out riding gear from over a decade ago and swearing it’s the best ever made because its still the same, Not knowing what could have happened if the Jasey Jays and the Sigi Grabners and Matt Bozzetos had given some input because they were easily out riding the current technology and needed more.

Chris Klug is on Burtons payroll to help build better boards but Burton does not make Public race boards. Is it safe to assume some of the knowledge a racer brings to the table finds its way into the freestyle shapes Jimmy buys at Garts…. Hell Yea

Why would the exotic board that so many riders have recently discovered blow the doors off of what they thought was good gear be around with out racing?

No Kessler, No Donek, No Coiler, No Virus, No Pogo, No Prior, and such.

Maybe just Swoard and the first year Madds, then the Dumb down F2 product, old Burton(made for racing). Etc….

Ask almost all of the current Cool Guy board builders who they first started building boards for and where their first income came from? Who pushed them to make better boards when most of the Masses were already ranting about how good the product all ready was? With out Racing many of these companies may not even be around and gear would just be sufficient enough to ride flat groomers. How many future hardboot heroes would never shine?

Where would any major company that makes items that turn fast and go fast be with out a competitive forum to force progression be?

Motorcycles?

Cars?

Skis?

Boats?

Surfboards?

Skateboards?

Bikes?

With out current progression being pushed to the next level coaching would degrade forcing general instruction to become stagnant also perhaps locking all of us into a regional dependency. With out national funding and resources what could happen?

I would be terrorized if PSIA or what ever that group of hacks is called now were left in charge of the progression of the sport it’s bad enough to listen to a few “Level 3 cert” instructors arguing technique over a few beers imagine a big group of “teaching Pros” using info they can rarely decide on, that is already outdated by the time their manual is printed trying to lead the industry? I would be forced to walk around SIA in Vegas with a huge Glove bitch slapping everyone I would even wear a GS suit to get my point across!

Racing is the foundation of hardboot snowboarding. Although there has only been one racing event(GS) in the Olympics for the last three games. There has been a GS Snowboard race in the Olympics for the last three games! And this year they are bringing the Viewer friendly Boardercross into the mix it too a race on snowboards. A race that will give builders athletes and coaches a chance to step into the ring and leave with a winner.

[bschurman]

I see it more as an ebb and flow to the market. Human nature is such that we will always race stuff. Just what we do. So if racing and hard boot equipment go away people will start racing on the soft stuff and eventually it will evolve back into hard boots. Then if there is a market there then someone will fill the void. Hell, companies sell spilt boards and I would think that market is a lot smaller then carving.

Just seems that ski/snowboard racing is more popular in Europe too.

[astrokel]

Amen to that Bordy.

Any progression on the outer edges depend on the people who are exploring those edges. Racing is the edge that Hardbooters play on. If that was the question I would completely agree. Is racing carving? Seems like there's a lot of controlled skidding when I see racing. Does racing help improve carving abilities? You answer that one because I have ideas but I don't know ANYTHING about snowboard racing. The boards I'm interested in are NOT racing boards but have probably benefitted from developments in the racing world.

Now survival? Does survival depend on progression? Is it like relationships and sharks in that they have to keep moving in order to survive (apologies to Woody)? Now THAT's an interesting question!!! :)

[Phil]

Bordy,

Two days in a row. Man I wish that I always had this kind of time. As I posted above, racing is essential for R & D. Of course I did not get into detail as you did, but I think that the agreement is the same.

I do take issue with the PSIA - now AASI rant. Like myself, many Level III's have taken up a career in snowboard training/coaching. AASI does not lead the industry by any means. I feel that, as an organization, they are usually trying to catch up. That is why there was a shift in the last five years from a more alpine inspired type of riding to more progressive freestyle. All of the sudden you saw less and less examiners and such on hardboots because that was not the way that the industry was headed.

As far as concepts and manuals, where do coaches come from? You have a coach. What are we supposed to do? Personally, I try to educate myself on the Physics, Biomechanics, Kinesiology, and Psychology involved with snowboarding - both recreational and competition.

It is my life and career. I have taught thousands and continue to have many that I have coached for years. I am an advocate for the industry and more importantly, I am an advocate for hard boots.

What if all of the sudden professional athletes from other sports started dissing the coaches in this way? I think that most professional athletes understand that the coach is not anywhere near as good as they are, but the coach has an "eye" that they may not. The coach has an understanding that they may not.

I may not be able to throw back to back 900's in the pipe, but I can help someone who is capable do it better.

[Mike T]

The boards I'm interested in are NOT racing boards but have probably benefitted from developments in the racing world.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of my quiver has benefitted from race-inspired development. Certainly my Coiler PR 188. Even though I don't ever plan to race that board, I feel exceptionally confident on it, due to the smooth-as-butter ride that I KNOW is race inspired (from talking to Bruce V). I'm very interested in Donek's Olympic construction as well. The thought of something with that Donek snappiness AND a smooth ride sends chills down my spine and inspires me to ride harder!

And hell, I'm going to try racing for the 1st time myself this year. The taste of gates I got at Snowperformance camp... even though I struggled at the time... I want more.

SNOW DAMNIT!

[Guest Randy S.]

I would be forced to walk around SIA in Vegas with a huge Glove bitch slapping everyone I would even wear a GS suit to get my point across!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bordy! That quote is awesome. I want video of that!

Seriously though, that was an awesome post and very well thought-out. Thanks.

All I can say is I sure hope racing doesn't go away. And C5, you are NOT too old to race. We have weekend warrior leagues for all ages. Its a blast and a great way to improve your skills.

[ncermak]

Phil-

two AASI clinics down, undoubtably more to come...but there is plenty to rant about from a hardboot standpoint. I have been told point blank by examiners that Hardbooting is a thing of the past...there is no interest, and that it is dying...yet each year I give more hardboot lessons, and get more kids riding plates. This only leads me to conclude that AASI is blind to the total picture. 3 years. not a single hardboot clinic offered. you'd think they might at least acknowledge this side of the sport, if the upper level guys are all such hardboot proponents.

As for the question...Bordy hit the nail on the head. Progression and development happens on the competitive level (for all disciplines). this is true in boarding, skiing, golf, hockey, you name it.

will carving survive...sure. just like knitting survives ( I don't know of any knitting competitions), but it won't progress (I also don't know, but how many new forms of knitting have been developed in the past 100 years)

-Noah

[Bordy]

Phil I played the game over a decade ago and still have to Dunk my hair into the same world you live in( although not exact I am sure). I would be terrified to see the upper levels of hardbooting fall into the hands of AASI it may be the top of the pile to you and many other instructors but I know the process and teaching system it is made to teach people to snowboard through all levels. Not how to push the upper envelope, Or force progression with in its pages. That’s what USSA and FIS do. I am not knocking the working instructor but stating the obvious it would suck to have AASI involved in the hardbooting world which could happen if there was not a competitive out source.

I spent time as an examiner and some of my favorite riding partners still sit on the top of the AASI heap, or run the Learn to ride program at Burton. I too have taught thousands. And under stand the need for the structure provide by text and a program that works. But it would truly suck to put the future of my sport in the hands of AASI. I think they still have a lot of growing to do.

I think we both agree with that and that’s my point.

I think I am not ranting just speaking from experience.

I bet you do argue technique over beers in the lodge huh? Be honest I know you do..

I used to.

;)

[astrokel]

Hmmm... I know someone who works in the textile industry who develops knit fabrics with new 3 dimensional capabilities, I'm an architect who specifies knit and woven fabrics (in steel, kevlar, plastics, etc) for building projects, you probably wear stuff that is "knit" (albiet not with two needles and a cat by the "knitters" side, more probably a multi-million dollar high tech behemoth) that you don't even realize is knit.

The point being is that competition isn't necessarily limited to racing. Just look at the other side of snowboarding. There is also development due soley through style and fashion yet those all are developed through competition. Progression could be defined in a multitude of ways. Cars could "compete" by seeing how far it could go with only one gallon of gas. It just doesn't seem that this type of competition is compelling in this culture. If we changed our focus anything could be "competition" (except for a freecarving event, which would be a bit cracked ;) ).

[Guest dragon fly jones]

"What if all of the sudden professional athletes from other sports started dissing the coaches in this way? I think that most professional athletes understand that the coach is not anywhere near as good as they are, but the coach has an "eye" that they may not. The coach has an understanding that they may not."

Do you watch tv sports at all? Coaches get dissed all the time in numerous ways.

Coaches not as good? Are you kidding? We may not be as fast as we once were due to age or just not wanting to race anymore, but that does not mean we're not as good or where ever that good - that statement is more that offensive it is just flat out wrong. We teach and coach so that they can reach their highest level, if it is beyond what I can do great - I left my ego on the side of the hill years ago, since I knew that if I carried it around like a badge of honor I would be doing my riders a disservice (not to mention myself).

Most top level racers know what they are or are not doing and I agree that the eye thing is true. Racers/Riders seek you out because we are good or great at what we do/did/have/see/believe.

My thought is you state your case in an argumentative/non sensical way.

Thanks for stoking the mind and starting a good conversation.

[Guest Zach Davis]

Racing is exactly what's wrong with hard-boot snowboarding...

There's a reason why the freeride and freestyle segments of the snowboarding market receive the most business: There exists virtually limitless levels of progression and personal acheivement. For the average rider, there are attainable goals.

Racing is the ultimate in elitism and perfectionism, and most people just aren't excited by that. Obsessing over 1/2 a degree of cant, the perfect carve radius, a few hundredths of a second on the clock... give me a break.

Freeride, big mountain stuff is the future of hardbooting. Look at guys like Griber and Koch or Pete Santanello... these guys rip any terrain in hard boots. I switched to hard boots, because they are the only realistic option for snowboard mountaineering. I spend 90% of my on-snow time in the backcountry, and God help me if I ever go in search of the perfect piste

Zach

[Mark.Andersen]

Hey Zach, what's up?

One of these days I'm going to have to loan you a real carving board and spend some time carving with some of the folks from TahoeCarvers. I'm not saying that it will replace pow lines on Tallac or anything, but on a sunny day in a dry spell, carving up weekday cord can be damn fun. Try it some time, you just might like it. Contrary to popular stereotypes, you don't have to wear a neon romper suit. ;)

Where's splitfest going to be this year?

Mark

[Bordy]

Racing is exactly what's wrong with hard-boot snowboarding...

Racing is the ultimate in elitism and perfectionism, and most people just aren't excited by that. Obsessing over 1/2 a degree of cant, the perfect carve radius, a few hundredths of a second on the clock... give me a break

:lol:

Very few of the World Cup athletes I know ever do so, maybe you have not been exposed to a great level of racing. How many events have you done?

Freeride, big mountain stuff is the future of hardbooting. Look at guys like Griber and Koch or Pete Santanello... these guys rip any terrain in hard boots.

All these guys have a racing background and some still compete. How much racing experience do you think they parlayed into free riding?

I switched to hard boots, because they are the only realistic option for snowboard mountaineering. I spend 90% of my on-snow time in the backcountry, and God help me if I ever go in search of the perfect piste

Zach

How about Jeremy Jones from Sqaw, Racer turned big mountain cat.

Chances are you may be able to improve your big mountain riding by racing. You have to ride a specific line and deal with obstacles with out crashing. The difference is In a race course you not only get to see who held on and nailed a run but who was doing it the best on that day. I my self hike a lot and can tell you from my experience I have been more nervous in the gate for SG then on the top of any peak. And I feel rewarded from both but get off on hanging on. Beside most of the mountaineering I have ever done has lead me to sweet Pow a much smoother softer and easier to ride surface then any course I have ever been on. Even when I started first. I go big Mtn. riding to relax from racing and the work I put into it. I have never gone racing to chill out from big mtn. riding, there is a lot more work involved then many people think.

I have been racing SL skateboard for the first time this year. I am amazed by how many life long skaters(my self included) are stoked to turn around cones. Many of them had stop skating street because it just, well got boring, but man are they happy to turn around cones with timing and race themselves! I think a similar option to allow carvers to run fun courses in a jam style non competitive format would be great. It may show those of you have never raced a different perspective.

I see a lot of ripping free carvers shocked by how many seconds or tens of seconds they are slower then a competitive athlete in a course most off those riders have since been practicing to be smoother and say the benefits are amazing.

I think more Mountains need much better race Programs for some of the lost souls out there!

[jtslalom]

If snowboard racing stops all together from the olympics and in other large competitions, I think companies will stop manufacturing race boards. I don't think there is a large enough market for these companies without racing. I think less and less race boards will be distributed to the US. I do think that manufaturers will make some nice all around freeride decks. This is why I used a good portion of last year riding soft. I think the time will be upon us when barely any snowboard manufaturers will be producing hard decks (race/carve).

[Guest Zach Davis]

i have a pretty good idea the Griber never raced. Santanello may have.. I don't know. I can tell you for a fact that Koch never raced a day in his life.

My point is that hard-boot snowboarding's current reliance on and orbit around racing is exactly what is wrong with it. Sure, racing is a great way to learn how to ski or ride, but it's a rare way to do so... most people just don't have the time, energy or desire.

The hardbooting community, from a semi-outsider's perepective, looks like a stagnant collection of amateur engineers, obsessed with perfecting low-angle turns..... Yaaaaawwwwnnn.

Now, I KNOW that there is more to hard-booting than racing and blue runs, but most people don't. Take racing out of the equation and suddenly folks like Bomber, Donek, Prior, etc... would need to shift their marketing focus towards freeriding. I think that they shoudl be going this direction, anyway...Relying strictly on racing is thin ice.

BTW - looks like the splitfest will be in the Wasatch this year:)

More details soon!

Zach

[Neil Gendzwill]

I understand where Zach is coming from but I can see Billy's point. OTOH I've never raced. There was really good article in Ski Canada last year, unfortunately not online, talking about the kids' freeriding school at Whistler. Basically they took a bunch of 10 year olds coming out of the J4 (I think) race program who were going to quit racing and trained them as freeriders. Kids got to apply their race skills to what they wanted most to do. So it kind of emphasized both points of view - racing helps your freeriding, but it's not ultimately where most people want to be. So I think hardboot riding can only grow if people understand that they are a good tool for general-purpose riding. People are always shocked to see me off the groomed in my hard gear. I like the groomed OK, but I'd rather be elsewhere.

[Bordy]

i have a pretty good idea the Griber never raced. Santanello may have.. I don't know. I can tell you for a fact that Koch never raced a day in his life.

Zach

To be honest I thought you were refering to Sigi Grabner and Phillip Schoch. and had just spelled it wrong... I was thinking globally sounds like you are talking locally? Sorry to be mistaken.

O-kay so do this for me. Take your hand Make some rabbit ears with your index finger and middle finger and now a piece sign do it again.. see where Iam heading? I am down with the cause and am stoked you are bringing some love into my hood (WASATCH) I hope we can make some turns.

I am just sharing my views.

I will be skining in soft boots again this year I am sure you have friends who will do the same. Don't hate me for my boots!

[Jack M]

Personally I love that racing exists. I think it's super cool and I hope it stays forever. However one interesting take I've heard on this subject is that if snowboard racing stopped tomorrow, then people wouldn't be able to say "hardboots are just for racing". I think that's one of our major hurdles - many people dismiss alpine out of hand because they have no interest in racing, and think that's all we do.

[Erik J]

Racing will never die. People race friggin lawn mowers. As long as it slides, rolls, flies, digs, moves in a direction etc. - no matter what it is people will race it. Whether or not companies support that is another question. Snowboarding has already matured, I believe snowboard racing is here to stay in one form or another.

BX may influence hardbooting enough to take it in another direction with dampness, binding and/or boot flex and board shapes. I welcome whatever progression comes, even if that means REALLY stiff soft boots.

[Allee]

I can't comment on the original thread, as I rode soft boots long enough to learn how to stand up, and have never ridden them since.

I agree with Erik as far as the BX thing goes. If racing has a commercial future this might well be it. In comparison to GS/PGS, which to the uneducated eye is not a spectator sport at all (lol, Billy, but it's just not that good to watch), BX is fast, exciting, and multi skilled. And the wipeouts are spectacular.

I'd suggest (and flame me all you want) that the all mountain boards that we all rave about, the ones that give us that fantastic crossover and allow us to do all those great things on plates that our friends do in softies ... these are the boards that are going to progress from the BX thing. And in doing so it will ensure the commercial viability of the Priors and Coilers and Doneks for a long time. Which can only be great.