Can carving survive without racing?

[CarvCanada]

OT: Do you guys think this would improve racing's popularity/fun/progression:

1- everyone wears regular snowboard jackets and pants (I guess there would have to be a list of acceptable stuff, so people won't wear aero'd out shells)

2- in GS, gates are closer together vertical wise and wider apart across the fall line (to make GS a bit slower, and much lower in the cross through sections, and have the cross-under sections low carves as well)

I really have no idea if this would work just wondering

[CarvCanada]

" and the wipeouts are spectacular!" hahaha

It would be awesome to see a judged carving event of style, power and flow at the X-games or something, it might catch on if there were some inspiring riders who got exposure

[Kent]

Can carving survive without racing? QUOTE]

Nope. Not a chance.....

[Kent]

Racing will never die. .

IMO, it's already on life support........

[Kent]

OT: Do you guys think this would improve racing's popularity/fun/progression:

1- everyone wears regular snowboard jackets and pants (I guess there would have to be a list of acceptable stuff, so people won't wear aero'd out shells)

2- in GS, gates are closer together vertical wise and wider apart across the fall line (to make GS a bit slower, and much lower in the cross through sections, and have the cross-under sections low carves as well)

I really have no idea if this would work just wondering

Although I personally like technical and turny courses.....the fact of the matter is that racing is about SPEED and who can ride the bull, not who is the most technically superior racer.

The other big (but IMO, BAD BAD BAD) change worth noting is the move from single to parallel events. That was the beginning of the end......

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Baby.

Many moons ago what was the boarder cross weapon of choice? Hard boots square tails and stiff legged airs.

We evolved they evolved. New sports emerge from old ones as people appreciated and then innovate.

Jackets and pants? Uhh not sure what that means.

Life support? Agreed. Will the patient survive? 50/50.

[philfell]

Racing is exactly what's wrong with hard-boot snowboarding...

Racing is the ultimate in elitism and perfectionism, and most people just aren't excited by that. Obsessing over 1/2 a degree of cant, the perfect carve radius,

Zach

I see more people tweak out over the smallest things involing their set-up here, than at the races. Ask Sean how much he has changed Adam Smiths SL board in the last three or four seasons? Trust me it's the freecarvers that obsess over thier equipment, not the racers. Most people that participate on this forum have way more boards than the average racer.

Also there is no "perfect carve radius"

[ak_rider]

I think carving/hardbooting would still be around. It's not very visible in the U.S. but in other countries hardbooting is more popular and among lots of non-racers. I think racing serves as large scale advertising for hardbooting. If racing were to be no more it would be a little more difficult to get people to hardboot, an advantage now is if you race you'll be faster, usually, with hardboots. The reason I got into it. But, it owuld still be around. I wish the U.S. would pay more attention to hardbooting and carving, but even if they continue to refuse, the rest of the world is doing it, and that will keep it alive.

To comment on AASI and noah's comment, I think that just proves how out of it and close minded AASI is. That organization needs to get out of the park and learn to turn :D

[forrest]

I have to agree that the change from single to parallel courses was a bad move. A parallel course is fine but not as the only event running. i think it makes snowbaord racing seem like a spectical rather than a true race they don't do it with skiing, I believe the same about BX, its fine but not as the only events.

[kipstar]

Well I like the parallel course. For someone not knowning that much about racig, it provides clear visibliity of who is winning and losing.

The idiot box has forced this sort of simpleness on many sports.

You look at a sport like boxing; now they have to commentate and explain the scoring each round, so people know what is going on.

In fact, rally is a great motor sport, but one of the most varouite of the non true enthusiast is the special stage with head to head racing; otherwise rally is against the clock racing...hard to know who is winning.

Pro skiing used to do the parallel course.. I think that side by side vs. single courses make not that much difference; it would be the same ppl racing either one.

But for the non racer, head to head is easier to understand.

Lots of things killing our sport, but I think we have gone through the worst, rather than getting worse.

[NateW]

There's just as big a percentage of softbooters as hardbooters obsessing over their equipment. Some people get into that kind of thing, some don't, whether it's bikes, boards, cars, or kites or whatever.

Personally I don't race (tried it, didn't like it) and only barely know one guy who does (not counting internet acquaintances). If racing disappeared, I wouldn't even notice.

How much would it really affect the market? What percentage of Doneks, Coilers, Priors, F2s, etc go to racers? And how bad would they hurt if those racers didn't have racing? Would the racers still ride for the fun of it? I assume so. Would their purchases slow down? Who knows? I'm guessing it would slow down a little, but not greatly. I'm guessing that most of the market doesn't race and doesn't much care that other people race. Even those who do race, won't stop riding fast just because the gates are gone.

The fact that there are a bunch of people out there racing and riding better than me doesn't have much bearing on whether I'm going to buy hard or soft boots next season. Doesn't affect the way I ride, except in the most indirect way. (I've taken one half day of lessons in the last 15 years, and I'm pretty happy with how I ride.) Does it affect the way anyone else rides? Maybe it's just that there's only a tiny sliver of a snowboard race scene in my area, and I got tired of standing in line above the starting gate after just a few races, but as far as I can tell, racing is just something other people do somewhere else. More power to 'em. I'll keep buying my all-mountain boards just the same, whether or not they're still at it.

Really, just the same. Maybe racing affects board design a little, but it seems to me that the construction has pretty well stabilized a long time ago - vertically laminated wood cores, fiber glass sandwidth, radial edges, etc, etc. I'd be happy riding 2001-designed boards for the next 50 years. I don't much care about Olympic construction or Torsion Plus or whatever.

Sure, the construction and techniques will evolve, and they'll evolve a bit faster with racing out there to push a little more... but they'll still evolve (if slower) just because the people who love to go fast are still going to be pushing themselves, their gear, their techniques, gates or no gates.

And there will always be gear-obsessed types who will still buy a new board or two every season just to try new things. If most of those people are non-racers already, then would the end of racing really put a big dent in demand?

[Mats]

If you look at what sparked new life into skiing it wasn´t racing. It´s the jibbers and the freeskiers who is pushing the envelope and grabbing the average guy´s attention. You see more young skiers now than ten years ago - and they very often ride reverse. Practicing for the park.

Hardbooting race style is the oposite of surfstyle, extremcarving or any other stylish way of riding with hard setup.

Racing pushes the industry to make boards narrow, with specific radiuses. Short = slalom. Long = GS. Freecarving falls in between and Nidecker, Völkl and the likes makes boards just for racers. So what´s the result? No boards for the beginner or freecarver. And the common understanding of hardboots is racing. If you add a speedsuit to the picture it´s just a joke imagewise.

That said - I love to watch racing, got nothing against it. But it´s not good for the carving scene. If we wan´t more people to get in to alpine we need good riders who do amazing stuff on their boards. Personalities who appear in ski/snowboard movies. Then we maybe would see a new snowboard boot for the first time in many years. A flexible boot with a good spring-system not made for racing.

Mats

[Jack M]

Ah yes, I was wondering when an EC zealot would chime in here. What took you so long? "Hardbooting race style is the opposite of surfstyle, extremcarving or any other stylish way of riding with hard setup." Racing or riding with a racing style is not a problem. I know this from watching all the heads on the chairlift snap around like dominoes when someone like this screams by underneath:

<a href="http://bomberonline.com//images/SES05/bigs/kevin11.jpg" target="top"><img src="http://bomberonline.com//images/SES05/bigs/kevin11.jpg" width=640></a>

No, the only problem I see here is two experts arguing over which style is "better". Get real.

[Mats]

Hey Jack beutiful picture of Kevin! Nice turn! Don´t look a bit like what you see in the WC. So don´t misundstand me. Racing as a sport pushes the gear we ride on in a specific direction. The same direction as the gates in a race.

;-)

M

[philfell]

Racing pushes the industry to make boards narrow, with specific radiuses. Short = slalom. Long = GS.

Mats

I love the brain washing that goes on over at the EC site. In the last five or six years racers have been going to wider and wider boards. Klug rides a waist width of 210 and his shell size is a 28.0, I beleive. Zac Kay also rides boards over 200 mm wide. Personally I ride a board with a 19.5 waist width, my shell size is a 25.5 and I ride the physics which allows me to set-up my boots with a smaller sole lenght than normal.

If you don't know from real world experience, don't make statements based off of what you read from a manufactors website.

[astrokel]

:lol:

So "EC'ers" open their eggs on the big side and "Racers" break their eggs on the little side? or is it the otherway around?

Racers also skid alot and we are CARVERS who look upon the lowly "skidders" with disdain :rolleyes: ? (please read previous with irony in mind)

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Guest Zach Davis]

Ask yourself this question:

Where would skiing be if snowboards had never been invented?

The birth of snowboards and their freestyle/freeride/backcountry aptitude is what rescued the ski industry. The sport of skiing followed suit and diverged from its formerly elitist structure (revolving around racing) and just barely managed to survive a massive real estate collapse. Real estate being what the industry was dependant upon before that.

Zach

[Mats]

"Klug rides a waist width of 210 and his shell size is a 28.0, I beleive. Zac Kay also rides boards over 200 mm wide. Personally I ride a board with a 19.5 waist width, my shell size is a 25.5 and I ride the physics which allows me to set-up my boots with a smaller sole lenght than normal.

If you don't know from real world experience, don't make statements based off of what you read from a manufactors website."

Well, last time I checked the equipment most riders where on F2s. Same specs as in the catalogue. And you can´t ignore the fact that sidecut´s are dictated by the shape of the courses more or less.

So you don´t find an "of the shelf" softish 21cm waist 180 board with 13 meter sidecut made by Völkl, F2, Nidecker or any other brand. That´s because it´s no good for GS! but it´s perfect for freecarving. If you ask me. You don´t need warpspeed to make it turn and you can ride it on really hardpack/ice without scaring yourself to death.

In fact it´s just F2s Silberpfiel who is more freecarve than race. But the waist! What is it 18,5 something 172 long?

I thought the discussion was - do we need racing to develop equipment? If racing is putting people of from hardbooting, and if the ONLY source of income for alpine-equipment is racing there is no development from the mainstream producers. Same shapes, sometimes new materials but mostly just a new topsheet. The main driving force is MONEY! And more recreational riders is a bigger market.

By the way - I´m no EC-carver. I just have a hell of a lot of fun!

[kjl]

I love the brain washing that goes on over at the EC site. In the last five or six years racers have been going to wider and wider boards.

I don't think the EC guys ever claimed that it was racing's "fault" that boards got narrower and narrower; they just claim that the shrinking width of boards starting from the mid-90's to a few years ago contributed to the declining interest in alpine snowboards.

I have no firsthand information, obviously, as I only started carving ~3 years ago, but I do know that when I was first shopping around, I felt that "real carving" boards were mostly 18cm wide, and the 21cm wide boards were hybrid "piste + off-piste" boards (Axis/4WD).

[Guest jschal01]

"Ask yourself this question:

Where would skiing be if snowboards had never been invented?"

Skiing would be about where it is right now, maybe with the exception of rails. the technology and historical forces that have led to wider skis, twin tips, etc. really are just resurrecting old designs and trends anyway. Take the Spatula and the other rockered skis, there are old wooden skis with almost exactly the same specs. Wide skis were around before snowboarding really took off, but it took awhile to be able to construct ones suitable for a range of conditions or for a modern skiing style.

Ski area finances are another story, a touch business to be in.

I would also note that on groomed slopes, the skiers who also turn heads are the ones who at the least have some race-influenced training if not racers. Wide stance, using the inside ski, leaving two nice arcs cut into the snow...not the ones with knees close together, and not the ones leaning into the turn looking like they're doing ski-ballet.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So you don´t find an "of the shelf" softish 21cm waist 180 board with 13 meter sidecut made by Völkl, F2, Nidecker or any other brand.

Burton's race boards have been in the 19-21 cm range for years. Donek, Prior and Coiler all make 21.5 cm waisted all-mountain boards in a variety of lengths. In fact, Prior and Coiler both have 23 cm waists in their stock shapes, maybe Donek does by now too. They don't come stock with 13 m sidecuts because most people don't want that big a radius, but if you want that they'll happily build it for you.

[Guest Zach Davis]

Skiing would be about where it is right now, maybe with the exception of rails. the technology and historical forces that have led to wider skis, twin tips, etc. really are just resurrecting old designs and trends anyway. Take the Spatula and the other rockered skis, there are old wooden skis with almost exactly the same specs. Wide skis were around before snowboarding really took off, but it took awhile to be able to construct ones suitable for a range of conditions or for a modern skiing style.

Ski area finances are another story, a touch business to be in.

I would also note that on groomed slopes, the skiers who also turn heads are the ones who at the least have some race-influenced training if not racers. Wide stance, using the inside ski, leaving two nice arcs cut into the snow...not the ones with knees close together, and not the ones leaning into the turn looking like they're doing ski-ballet.

Sorry, dude, but that's just not true. Deep sidecuts and wider tips and tails in skis are a direct result of influences from snowboard design. And, the reason that ski designers started going in this direction is that they were chasing the go-anywhere, do-anything image of snowboarding. Snowboarding brought a lower entry price and shifted the emphasis in snow sports away from luxury vacationing and into the realm of all-access recreation. This is widely attributed for having saved the ski industry from certain doom.

The snow sports industry continues to be leveraged and most heavily affected by segments that give people access to more terrain and more possibilities. Right now, the ONLY growth segment in snow sports is Telemark Skiing, which has a deep-seated backcountry image... ie go-anywhere, do-anything... Anecdotaly, another reason for the growth in Telemark is the "challenge factor." Experienced, mature skiers are looking for something to challenge them in a different way, so they are giving Telemark a try.

Hardboot snowboarding, to me, has the two most important elements necessary for growth: a.) It's more challenging and requires refined skills... their is a documented, aging population of snowboarders that are shifting into Telemark and alpine sking for just this reason. b.) Hard boots (specifically AT) make backcountry access infinitely easier... they simplify, lighten and make more reliable interfaces with splitboards and approach skis.

Zach

[Mats]

Let´s ride and do nice turn´s.

See you in Aspen!

Mats

[Neil Gendzwill]

This interview with Mike Olson of Gnu/Mervin fame has an interesting anecdote about his interactions with K2 engineers over the shaped ski concept.

[skatha]

Every year I go out, I see of what I call "old doods"-people over 40 who are snowboarding.

I see them in these rad freestyle setups for tricks they will never do, because most will just want to carve a groomer like they would if they were still in skis. I feel that most of these old doods(and I am among them, believe me) would jump at a chance for a hard boot setup-if they knew it was an option for snowboarding. Face it, snowboarding softies have to be tweaked to get a good secure fit and without a good fit, alot of your carving enjoyment goes right out the window because you are falling on your anterior superior spine of the iliac crest(where the term "ass" came from, BTW) and many of them are used to that clamp-down feeling you get with ski boots.

Plus, with skiing....the shaped skis may have come around without the boarding influence, but skiiers sure have taken to them. Last year when I was renting skis for my daughter, the attendant asked if I wanted shaped or straight skis. I looked at him increduously and asked who still made straight skis and, better still, who knows now how to turn in them :)

He laughed and grabbed the curved ones "I know, I know"