Binding set up wide powder board

[RRrider]

So i am falling down the rabbit hole of how to set up bindings (TD with Deeluxe 325 hard boots) on a wide board (26+” waist) - a k2 excavator. I have small feet (mondo 26), and so the board is wider than my feet even at angles of 0 and 0.  On my carving board, i like 60/55 but on this board, i can’t get enough leverage to comfortably ride at those angles.

so hence the plunge into the rabbit hole.

two questions:

(1) is it better to have the bindings “centered” on the board (equal distance from edge of board to the closest part of the binding” or is it better to have the front foot closer to the toe side edge and the rear foot closer to the heel side edge so that the front foot has more leverage initiating a heel side turn and the rear foot more leverage initiating a toe side turn?

 

(2) interested in opinions on angles for hard boot on wide powder board. I have found 60/55 doesn’t give me enough leverage.  50/20 is ok for carving in icy conditions (but that’s not the intent of this board) but puts a lot of pressure on my front ankle and makes the board hard to control getting off the lift.  I am going to try 45/25 next.  It’s a lot of splay but ….

TIA for the thoughts and opinions

[kibber]

I just went thru Exact Situation last two seasons, 26 mondo, 26 cm waist; my carve angles 60/55, AllMt/Pow angles 50/40, hardboots for all. I never found a solution to mitigate underhang for my beautiful Prior Swallowtail 26+ waist, so finally decided to order custom 22cm waist DayDreamer from Winterstick. Thirst PC PCj are two other great options.

I know, Not a great answer, expensive answer, but same realities as having optimum waist width for carving ‘boards.

 

[Corey]

Put the toes and heels of your boots near the edges, maybe over if you want. You'll still have some positive angles as your boots are longer than your feet. 

Are these the original TD bindings? Or TD2/3? The originals are very hard on boards that weren't designed for them. Probably no concern for powder but they are a very stiff binding... 

[BlueB]

Get as close to the edges as you can, the lowest angles you can tolerate. If you don't like very low angles, get narrower boards. 

I wouldn't ride TDs for pow/freeride, to stiff, tall and heavy. I like F2 Carve RS/Proflex, or Burton/Ibex bindings for that application. 

Edited February 20 by BlueB

[barryj]

Hey RR,

20 hours ago, RRrider said:

50/20 is ok for carving in icy conditions (but that’s not the intent of this board) but puts a lot of pressure on my front ankle and makes the board hard to control getting off the lift.

Take this with a grain of salt as I'm the undisputed King of Underhang here....

50/20 isn't that steep on the front to "pressure"  torque??  your ankle imo unless you have some pre existing conditions....aka: surgeries or bone spurs,,,,maybe it's a pressure point in your front boot?? 

Also maybe the "hard to control getting off the lift" has more to do with not enough weight on the front?? Try moving your front binders up 1 set of inserts....this will give you more control.  You might like it!

I use TD 3 SW SI's on all my boards and no problems with weight, height or stiffness for me. Also my bindings are not centered, I use the infamous _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Bias (front binding is set up behind the center mark of boot/ft is closer to heel edge and rear binding is set past the center mark of the boot/ft is closer to toe edge)

My Pow board is a 26w Moss PQ60 and at almost 3 months post ankle surgery I'm currently trying 55/55 (which are LOW for me) with mondo 28 boots.   I don't use BTS, I stuck with the OE 5 position adjustable walk/ride lever which I leave open in the walk mode for pow days.  I do use/have an older set  Deluxe 425 Pro boots set up with a softer liner and a softer tongue I use specifically with this board.

 The guys here have been after me for years to lower my angles out to the edge and I've tried numerous times but always end up back at these steeper angles.  I've never felt any problem getting pressure edge to edge with these angles.  Call me a mutant but my ankles/hips don't like low angles.   I even ride 65/60 angles on my 40w wake board no problem.

My propensity for steeper angles might have something to do with numerous broken bones all on the left side from a variety of sports over the years and surgeries on left ankle, hip and shoulder!  The pressure I feel at lower angles (standing sideways but trying to face forward) really puts pressure on my left ankle and hip and I drift to the right at lower speeds coming into the lift which is even more difficult to compensate for at low speeds!

My hard charging carving boards are also TD3 SW SI's with a different and stiffer set of Deluxe 425 Pro's set up with bias and are 60/65 on 20w boards.  I lock the OE walk/ride lever at 1+ on the front boot and 1 minus  on the rear boot on this set of boots. 

Hope this helps.....

  

Edited February 20 by barryj

[RRrider]

Wow what great responses.  I love this forum.

@kibber definitely not what I wanted to hear, but also where my head was going.  it's amazing how similar your circumstance was to what mine is.

@Corey I am in my garage moving my boots more to the relevant edge right now...I'm also softening up the angles to see how I like it.  What I have found is that the answer varies by condition.  On smoother predictable surfaces, I like my "normal" taller angles, but in pow or on rough variable terrain, I like the shallower angles.    I don't have this issue with my narrower carving board.

@barryj well spotted.  I do indeed have pre-existing conditions...metal in my ankles, bone spurs, pig ligaments, titanium in various parts of the body.  All remnants of my passion for motorcycles and former journeys into gymnastics and martial arts.  So i am working around some unique to me issues.  But it sounds like you have many of the same issues (sorry!).  I'm intrigued by your bias...as i am trying the exact opposite bias...rear foot slided over to heel edge and front foot slided over to toe edge.  Theory being as my mondo 26 feet are so small, move the front foot for more leverage driving front knee for heel side and move back foot for more leverage driving rear knee for toe side turn.  I suspect this only works with shallower angles.  your reverse bias I suspect works better with taller angles.  We'll see.  after reading your ideas, if what I'm trying now feels off, I'll try your bias, as well as steepen the angles.

on my pow board, I have the original TD.  on my carving board, I presently have a TD3 sidewinder.  I am considering going to F2 bindings for my carving board (and in fact getting a new carving board - but that's a different discussion :).  i will look at the F2 for pow board...thanks for the suggestion!

of course my journey toward a new carving board make @kibber's suggestion of just getting a different pow board a little bit more challenging...at least for this season.  Maybe the budget for replacement boards will grow next season - lol.

Thanks guys!  really appreciate the excellent feedback and guidance.

Edited February 20 by RRrider

[Pat Donnelly]

27/27.5 UPZ + F2 Titanflex 30 f/ + 12 r

Centered between edges best I can eye ball.

Running this set-up on . . .

3 Coiler 165'ish BXFR's ranging from 24-24.25 waist

165 Thirst 22CC+ 24.3 waist

165 Ride Berzerker 25.3 waist

177 Stranda Cheater 26 waist

[Deuxdiesel]

For powder, if you really like the board, consider a set of stiff softboots and bindings.  If you prefer your hardboots, then pick up a narrower board.  Every rider and set-up is unique, but the idea of riding hardboots at such low angles seems painful to me.  For my powder board, I have a Sushi Wide, and at 28cm, I have to use pretty low angles even with my big boats (28.5-29.0) to keep pressure on the edges. 

[philw]

If I read the thread correctly...

(1) You need to be centred. Well centred on the reference stance for a powder board (with built in set back) at least. Centred side to side as well as front-back. I suppose some may ride differently, but my experience is this.

With powder boards which are wider than my feet (at my preferred angles...) I don't mind "underhang" in helicopter powder. In resort powder, where there's a skier-pisted base under maybe 30cm of fresh, I can't ride with underhang at all. I would rather ride those conditions on my SL board than with underhang. It's a leverage problem - I can't edge a board in hardpack if I have underhang.

(2) Angles are what you want them to be. Over the years the fashion's changed, but [with some assistance from folk here] I'm at 45/35 or 40/30 on hardpack and also powder - same board, same bindings, same boots, same rider, same style.

I pick a board width which lets me run the angles I want, because those define my style, then I work from there. A splay of 20 or 30 degrees sounds enormous to me, although whatever works for you. 

I like F2 bindings, and think that the flex of those has been successful for a reason. For me, getting my [hard] boot flex right is important, as is getting the lean of both boots [which are different] right. Hard booters have a reputation for being "stiff" in powder, but with powder boards and the right set up, that's not necessary. Hard boots deliver massive power and control, but can be ridden as delicately as anything else.

[b0ardski]

those td1s will not be kind to your powder board, a lot of force on a very small footprint on the board, make sure the bumpers are touching the topsheet to spread the load.

[lamby]

On 2/21/2024 at 9:56 AM, philw said:

(2) Angles are what you want them to be. Over the years the fashion's changed, but [with some assistance from folk here] I'm at 45/35 or 40/30 on hardpack and also powder - same board, same bindings, same boots, same rider, same style.

After reading that Phil is having had good results with lower angles I backed my angles back 5 degrees on my all-mountain/powder board set up (153 Lib Tech Orca). Formly at 45 rear and 58 front I adjusted to 40 rear, 50 front. It felt weird at first.

First, we riding in large open bowls on tracked out, big bump snow. I felt like it was easy to stay in control on my heel side, but on my toe side it seemed to be harder to control my speed - after committing to a toe turn. At one point I did a nice header into the snow, toe-side, flipping endo, but coming out of it not much worse for wear.

Later in the day we were on groomers and I was feeling very comfortable with the change in binding angles. (I had also reduced my stance with by about an inch - to 20 inches - this felt good). By the end of my time on the hill I was liking how everything felt. I ended the day on a steep ungroomed bump run, and my toe-side control felt equal to heel side.

I'm eager to try something closer to what you have settled on Phil. Will try to creep up on it to see if I like it. So easy to go back to whatever works and feels good.

On 2/21/2024 at 9:56 AM, philw said:

I like F2 bindings, and think that the flex of those has been successful for a reason.

I to like F2 bindings, particularly the Carve RS. I like the beefy bails and flexy feel of them for the riding I seem to be gravitating toward.

[RRrider]

quick update:

- I have ordered F2 bindings for powder board

- I have adjusted my binding angles to 45/25, played with getting close to the edges, and will test this week (storm expected to drop several feet of snow on Mt Bachelor this week)

Also, @Deuxdiesel, I did buy very stiff soft boots when I bought this board, and my intention was to use softboots for powder and keep my hard boot setup for carving board.  However, the injury/surgery related lack of range of motion in my ankles, made that an extremely painful experience.  I gave it the ol' college try of 5 days out, and bailed.  So I am hard booting 100% now (hard boots act like a protective cast almost).  I'm going to stick with the "too wide" powder board this season to see if I can make it work.  If not, next season, armed with the knowledge of this season's experimentation,  I'll consider buying a different powder board, where the driver will be waist dimensions to match my boot size/angle preference.

thanks all!

[barryj]

4 minutes ago, RRrider said:

(hard boots act like a protective cast almost).  

Me being in Hard Boots is the Only reason the Orthro Doc. is allowing me back on the hill THIS Season post ankle surgery!.....it is a cast   

9 minutes ago, RRrider said:

binding angles to 45/25

Kudos to you if you can do it but If your rear ankle is the surgery survivor I don't see how that ankle can stand the torque of standing sideways but having to torque/turn to face forward....just to ride straight!   My ankles can't handle those low angles!

[RRrider]

@barryj indeed, the side torque is exactly the battle I’m fighting.  Lower the angle the more shooting pain i experience….  Trying to tweak other things (there are so many variables to mess around with), but due to the pain, i only use the powder board now if i really don’t believe my carving board can stay afloat in the steep & deep after a storm.

Edited February 25 by RRrider

[BlueB]

On 2/25/2024 at 10:43 PM, RRrider said:

@barryj indeed, the side torque is exactly the battle I’m fighting.  Lower the angle the more shooting pain i experience….  Trying to tweak other things (there are so many variables to mess around with), but due to the pain, i only use the powder board now if i really don’t believe my carving board can stay afloat in the steep & deep after a storm.

Square your hips to where your toes are pointing and you won't need to torque your ankles much. 

[RRrider]

quick update: 

(1) couple days ago:  tried 45/25 angles, slight forward setback, and pushed rear foot to upper toe side turn edge and front foot to upper heel side turn edge. I also added the BTS system to my Deeluxe boots to hopefully absorb a bit better (yellow on back, blue on front). It felt OK.  I definitely felt some pain in my front ankle when I slammed into uneven terrain.  this makes me want to increase the angle closer to my normal 60.  And for the first half dozen runs, I was struggling to get my rear knee bent.  I got it more under control later in the day, but it was effort.  this makes me want to increase the rear angle more as well.

(2) for yesterday, made a few more changes:  installed new F2 Titanic with cants on F & R, F toe lift and R heel lift, and I decided with new bindings to start out centered on the board with only a very slight negative setback.  The F2 bindings replaced my early 1990's TD1 set up.   Adjusted angles to 50/37.  And yesterday we had hero snow / powder day.  OMG.  First time that I have ridden the board and not felt any pain.  I felt controlled coming off of the lift (just like I do on my normal carving board). I was able to just step in, NP.   I was able to drop into the steeps and deeps, again feeling control as opposed to riding it out, absorbing some pain.  I was also able to carve without pain on the flats.  OK, carving wasn't as good as on the carving board, and the angles aren't my ideal for carving...but this is a powder board, and it felt great in the trees.  

we are getting dumped on with snow, so I am going to ride a bunch next week on this new set up to ensure it wasn't just a fluke day...but wow what a difference.

15 hours ago, BlueB said:

Square your hips to where your toes are pointing and you won't need to torque your ankles much. 

Thanks. This is an excellent tip, and I do try to do this.  the shooting pain normally comes from when I hit uneven terrain creating a jolt, which bends the board at an angle at my ankle...the wider board exacerbates the impact/torque on my ankles....r-squared relationship as compared to my much narrower carving board (which has an 18 waist vs this powder boad which has a 26.5 waist).  But of course the wider board floats better....

really appreciate everyone's help and feedback. This forum is great.

Edited March 2 by RRrider