Donek Rev 163 VS. Kessler Alpine 162 ??

[barryj]

10 minutes ago, Kneel said:

looking for support

Ha!  Maybe an UPM hotline for hoarding disorders......     ....but if anybody needs an AF!    

1 hour ago, 1xsculler said:

The 162 Thirst SF should be a player in there. 

I had one and the Thirst SF has a scr of 10

Its not a player in this....

[TLN]

 

On 2/22/2022 at 9:48 PM, barryj said:

Both are 7-12scr and 20 waists stock specs....which is what I want.   Anybody owned both to make a comparison?

I've got a prototype Rev 163 that I'm happy with but it's a 8.5-12.5scr and would hope a 7scr board to be a noticeable step up in responsiveness and even tighter turns. 

....

I'm not having much luck finding an affordable Rev 163 to purchase in the desired 7-12scr and 20 waist....and UPM   ....so that got me thinking of options and the K162.

 

 

1 hour ago, barryj said:

Ha!  Maybe an UPM hotline for hoarding disorders......     ....but if anybody needs an AF!    

I had one and the Thirst SF has a scr of 10

Its not a player in this....

Why you're trying to focus on SCR so much? 

All those 7-12 or 8.5-12.5 board will have about the same average scr as yours REV.

 

Unless there's something wrong with that prototype (Like super-stiff. Could be, but at #225 less likely) you'll end up with about the same experience IMHO.  And personally, I don't see a reason to go smaller than SL board, unless you know what you're doing (infected by Virus).  You can try softer board with similar SCR to see if you like it.

 

Could you clarify what you call responsiveness? SL boards can run pretty tight, but I won't call em super-responsive. It's not required by design. 

 

[barryj]

26 minutes ago, TLN said:

responsiveness

Yes, I know scr is just a reference and not an end all stat.

All im saying is a 163cm board with a 7scr will make a tighter/smaller turn/arc than same make/model board with 8.5scr.  Mathematically 

....or tighter turn/arc than a K168 at 8scr. 

Responsive to me is a board that wants to/needs to turn...like an SL board...that's not an al Mtn board.  The Rev 163 is more responsive  imo than the K168

[Carvin' Marvin]

Any board can be bent to a 0m radius if you try hard enough. That 7m board will turn tighter if you are just riding the sidecut but the flex pattern will also determine turn tightness and shape when you’re actually pressuring it.  
 

Just buy both snowboards and YOU tell US what you think! As long as there is food in your mouth and the bank is getting paid then who cares? Treat yo self. But really you should probably get the Kessler since the rev ain’t gonna be that different from the one you already have. 
 

Godspeed in your search of the perfect hard charger and turny little bandit!

 

[SunSurfer]

A thread examining the interaction between SCR, flex, board tilt angle, turn radius and edge hold.

There is far more to it than just the SCR!

Edited February 25, 2022 by SunSurfer

[Lurch]

Donek MK 161  @barryj? 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Lurch
not mine ..... https://www.ebay.com/itm/275163952451

[johnasmo]

Turn size is as much determined by flex as sidecut.  Which one has the upper hand on any day is determined by the snow.  Flex has the upper hand in soft snow; sidecut the upper and in hard snow.  I have a 185 with a 10.5 sidecut, but it won't turn as small as my K168 with a 10.8 average because it is way stiffer.  But it loves to go fast in soft and bumpy crud where the K168 does not.  The K168 is rather soft; maybe the K162 is stiffer.  Even though the weight range is the same between them, the K162 could be stiffer as a SL board vs. an all-arounder.  If that's the case, don't expect it to turn smaller, just faster.

I haven't measured anything off a K162, but for a touted 7-12 to average out to a 10, my guess is that it's a 7-12-9 VSR and that even those numbers are rounded up.  The K168 is a 8-12-10 VSR.  So the Kessler is likely to have tail hook, a tighter tail than what is at the rear binding, where the REV is likely progressive from tight to long unless it was ordered with "hook" as well.  I believe that will make a noticeable difference.  Sean offers to hook the tail, but you have to ask for that when you order one.

[TLN]

5 hours ago, barryj said:

Yes, I know scr is just a reference and not an end all stat.

All im saying is a 163cm board with a 7scr will make a tighter/smaller turn/arc than same make/model board with 8.5scr.  Mathematically 

....or tighter turn/arc than a K168 at 8scr. 

Responsive to me is a board that wants to/needs to turn...like an SL board...that's not an al Mtn board.  The Rev 163 is more responsive  imo than the K168

Well, this part is wrong to start with.

If you take two boards, one is stiff SL board with 7m radius, and another is infinitely soft board with double the radius. Which one will go round tighter arc?  Second one of course. infinitely soft board will be fairly boring to ride, but hope you got the idea.

I haven't read topic regarding sidecut, but will do that tomorrow at work.

ps. That MK sounds interesting, might be what you're looking for.

[barryj]

6 minutes ago, TLN said:

this part is wrong

No, It's Not - As I said, if they are exactly the same make, model and (I thought it wouldn't have to be stated) stiffness.............and all other factors being the same Except scr.......

6 hours ago, barryj said:

a 7scr will make a tighter/smaller turn/arc than same make/model board with 8.5scr. 

  

 

[barryj]

58 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Donek MK 161  @barryj? 

Yeah Lurch,  been thinking I would to like try one!   But I'm not a fan of a 18 waist enough to buy one.....and the other limiting factor is rider reviews make it sound like it's a two hour max thigh burning experience and your done....for the day!!

[SunSurfer]

@barryj18cm waist means you'd probably have to run slightly higher binding angles than your normal 62/60. That means a more forward facing stance, which in turn actually makes it easier for your knees to absorb the bumps.

Any board with the design parameters you're seeking is going to turn so tight you'll see your own backside ahead of you. So you'll make lots of turns, and that will make you work harder, so that the consequence of tired quads early in the day is a likely result of riding a board of the design you say you want. Sounds like you want the cake, and to eat it too!

If I hadn't already had a KST 162 when I rode the MK at SES 2017 I would probably have bought one.

[Corey]

5 hours ago, barryj said:

But I'm not a fan of a 18 waist enough to buy one.

So get it made with a 20cm waist. That's what I did. It won't be called an MK any more because that width/topsheet/etc is all locked to the MK name. Same board though. Donek also put rounded nose and tail on mine, at my request. Sean can do anything you can think of! Why not add UPM, Allflex, Visit, Snowstick, and split board mounts to it while you're in there? 

I prefer a Coiler Angry for all-day riding. There's something smoother and more relaxing about the Angry with only a tiny bit larger turning radius. But the MK is a frantic ride that's a real treat when I'm in the right mood. 

BTW, you can ride an MK all day. What doesn't work is when you try to do high-energy minimum-radius turns continuously. That'll test your fitness on any board, but the performance of the MK seems to encourage it. 

[Jack M]

12 hours ago, barryj said:

board with a 7scr

Just want to make sure you understand the board does not have a 7m radius.  That would be ridiculously turny.  That's the smallest end of the sidecut range.  Kessler gives a hint about how their shapes work here:

http://kessler-swiss.com/en-US/technology/kesslerShapeTechnology

It's not the whole story and a bit of a smoke screen but it's a good start.

Without Asmo measuring it there's no way to know how much or how little of the board is actually 7m.  I'll bet it's only a few cm.  While the 168 and 162 only differ by 1m at the small end, I suspect the sidecuts are much more different in shape than the numbers imply.

I've flexed a new 162 by hand and it didn't strike me as much different than the 168.

9 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

Just buy both snowboards and YOU tell US what you think!

Yeah!  Sell the one you like less.  Consider the loss (if any) a rental fee.

[st_lupo]

Ha, I knee I had some detailed info about my K162 somewhere!

 

[barryj]

4 hours ago, Corey said:

So get it made with a 20cm waist. 

I prefer a Coiler Angry for all-day riding.

Yeah, I'd buy that!

Yeah, I'd also buy that if either turned up in the classifieds!

[barryj]

5 hours ago, Jack M said:

Just want to make sure you understand the board does not have a 7m radius.  That would be ridiculously turny.

Well, that's the idea.....I like the prototype Rev I have with 8.5 and  I would like to see what a  7scr is like.  The stock Rev is a 7-12scr   I'm looking for  another board that's even more turny than the Rev 163 at 8.5-12.5 scr. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by barryj

[Mr.E]

Silberfeil Vantage 162 is a 9.5m, but I think it's radial and should be pretty darn turny.

Or a Nidecker Specter Carbon with a 7.7 radial sidecut.

Sounds like you want an old school 153-157cm glass slalom board with a radial sidecut. If you don't find a used one, ask Sean to crack out the old FC2 files.

I'm going to guess it's not the board, but I certainly understand the desire to own a bunch of stuff in similar spec to get first hand feel on the minutia.

I still think you'd love my JJA 161, but the above should be tighter in number and soft enough to bend some tight little squiggles if that's your game.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Mr.E

[johnasmo]

The specs I have for K162 are from 2013/14 season.  They are:

Taper 18 (264/200/246)
Side Cut Range 7-12m
Side Cut Average 10m
Setback 30
Rider Weight 65-95kg

The K168 is:

Taper 18 (268/202/250)
Side Cut Range 8-12m
Side Cut Average 10.8m
Setback 45
Rider Weight 65-95kg

Shape and flex could both differ, but my money is on flex more than shape.  Same rider weight, shorter board means probably stiffer, so expect similar turn size but under more pressure.  Someone with both would have to compare their flex.

Why not just get another K168 to ride without a plate?  It's a really fun freecarver without a plate as long as the conditions aren't too bad.  Are you really looking for something that turns tighter than that for freecarving?

[barryj]

49 minutes ago, johnasmo said:

Are you really looking for something that turns tighter than that (K168) for freecarving?

Yes........   I'm enjoying the all day go-cart responsiveness and tighter turns of the Rev 163 at 8.5scr and curious what a 7scr on same make, model would do.   The Rev 163 is already more turny than my K168 (sans plate) imo...... 

[johnasmo]

Don't focus so much on the tip radius. The radius between your bindings is more critical to how it will feel under relaxed riding. The REV is probably 9 or 10m across the middle whereas the K168 hits 12m in there.  It turns like an 11.5 or 12 when you let up.  That means something more radial around 9 or 10 is probably what you actually want for an all day ride, not a 7 or 8m or a K162, which is still 12ish somewhere in there.

Also, before buying a new sidecut, compare the flex of your Rev to your K168.  Place a couple pair of 2x4s on the ground (or two 4x4 blocks) and lay both boards across them.  Stand on them and compare how much and where they bend.  Move the blocks around to compare different parts of the boards.  The K168 is one of the most even flexing boards I've seen when flexed this way.

I think starting with a board you know and telling the builder how you want to change it is the best way to get what you're seeking.  Trying random brands and models is educational, but hit or miss on getting what you're after.

[Ladia]

I had 162 Kessler, decent board but top P- tech was delaminating. Non existing customer support to send them e mail probably bother them too much just to answer. The worst of all manufacturers I dealt during last 30 years.  No more for me for sure. I somehow always preferred board around 63  than 68. SCR is another story. Tomorrow I plan to give try to  Contra, if definitely felt differently than rest of my boards.

[Jack M]

41 minutes ago, Ladia said:

I had 162 Kessler, decent board but top P- tech was delaminating. Non existing customer support to send them e mail probably bother them too much just to answer. The worst of all manufacturers I dealt during last 30 years.  No more for me for sure.

Weird, just the other day I emailed Hansjuerg Kessler looking for a 175 women's GS for my athlete and he emailed right back with several options.  He has been great to deal with on my two customs as well.

[1xsculler]

31 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Weird, just the other day I emailed Hansjuerg Kessler looking for a 175 women's GS for my athlete and he emailed right back with several options.  He has been great to deal with on my two customs as well.

I had the same good experience when I ordered a custom 168 from him. 

[Ladia]

Maybe your boards did not start to fall apart. And I did not even ask for replacement or fix.

[snowburn]

4 hours ago, johnasmo said:

The K168 is one of the most even flexing boards I've seen when flexed this way.

I have three days on a K171 and that's exactly what I noticed about this board. The flex is amazingly fluid unlike others. 

 

4 hours ago, johnasmo said:

I think starting with a board you know and telling the builder how you want to change it is the best way to get what you're seeking.  Trying random brands and models is educational, but hit or miss on getting what you're after.

That's really great advice John!