Introduction and asking advice for first hardboot setup

[weather_nerd]

Hi all! I just joined after lurking for a bit and figured I would introduce myself and ask for a bit of advice. I'm a 30 y/o guy living in Flagstaff AZ and I'm getting ready for my 22nd season of snowboarding. I'll be up at AZ Snowbowl on weekday mornings this season, hoping to avoid the weekend crowds (especially with COVID restrictions). I'm also hoping to do a UT/CO tour in January if it is safe. When I'm not snowboarding, I am an endurance runner and a climate scientist.

I've always ridden a softboot setup but I've been interested in hardboots for a looong time. My dad even got his hands on a used Burton alpine board when I was a preteen. I think it was made before I was born . I never ended up trying it out (didn't have the right boots). 

My current quiver includes a Jones Aviator w/ Flow NX2 bindings for hard snow/carving and a K2 Cool Bean w/ Now bindings as a surfy powder/slush board. I also just got a Korua Shape T-Finder and Arbor Cypress bindings that I'm hoping will be a really fun freeride/carving board (not a huge fan of the Jones Aviator). My boots are DC Torstein Horgmo's, which are STIFF. I also skied up until a couple of years ago, so I'm used to a stiff boot.

I've been chatting with Sean at Donek about a new board. We've discussed the Voyager as a good intro board, but I'm asking him about the Freecarve too. I'm thinking I'll go with the F2 Titanium Race bindings (not the step-ins), but I'm not sure about the boots. I'm torn between the Deeluxe 325's and 700's. For softboots, I bought the stiffest boots I could get my hands on. But I'm not sure if the 700's will be too stiff? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I plan on freecarving and maybe trying a USASA race if they happen any time soon.

Sorry if I broke any unwritten rules of the forum . Looking forward to a fun season!

[Mr.E]

Sean will get you going. Either of those decks are good. Boot wise, both the 325 and 700 should work as freecarving boots. The fit is a little different, but just in pure flex it's not night and day. Sean should be able to help you with that based on your foot shape and weight, too. Most folks buy boots too large, so don't be afraid of going a little tighter in the fit. Also, when stuff comes in you can mount it all up as a dedicated alpine board, or you can mount the bindings and boots on one of your freeride boards to get a feel without changing everything you are used to.  

I'm not sure if you are currently carving, but working on getting your soft gear up on edge will all help transition into alpine riding.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

What brand ski boots did you fit? Be prepared to do the adjustments you may have used with your ski boots to get comfort, good heel hold down, and toe wiggle room. Deeluxe has a different combo of heel and forefoot width to the UPZs I ride which have a relatively narrow heel, wider forefoot. But Sean may not be able to sell you UPZs.

[BlueB]

325 is narrower than 700, in front and mid foot. However, both are somewhat wide at the heel. I never could get good heel hold from Deluxe boots. 

[dgCarve]

I have only few seasons under my belt on hardboot setups and can share my experience. I hope it will be help full.

Before transition, I was rinding stiff "softboot" setups, like Custom X/NX2-GT/Ride Insano. Tried hardboots and became addicted to all this addition edge control they give. That's why I fully converted to hardboots. However I like to ride different conditions and surfaces (like moguls and powder). So, that's why I do have two hardboot setups - "soft" and "hard".

My "soft" setup:
UPZ boots with medium stiffness springs + red tongues, F2 Race Titanium, and Vist / Vistflex plates optional. For boards: Coiler Contra 167 / 26cm waist, Burton Custom (yes, regular board), Prior 4WD. I even do some jumping in parks on these setup.

"hard setup"
UPZ RCR with race springs, F2 Race T bindings, Vist/Vistflex/Bomber Plate (I never ride "hard" setup without plates - as conditions usually not great where I ride...). For boards: I have too many SL and GS boards for one person ... 

Depending on your ride style "hard setup" could be softer. I do split all carving styles (not scientifically) into two groups: 1 - controlling speed by going perpendicular to fall line, 2 - controlling speed by doing quick aggressive, but open turns (like racers or ski carvers do). For the first group of carving styles you do not need very hard setup. Actually you may prefer softer setups, as some of these styles require lots of "vertical" movement. 

Depending on snow conditions you ride, entry level non metal alpine boards could be not so great choice. For example Pacific North West conditions usually quite bad: heavy wet snow, icy, bumpy, good grooming if exists does not last more than couple of hours. 

About plates: there are different approaches to that, many recommend to learn without them... But I found that Vist and even better Vistflex, do not require any real adjustment of riding. Bomber Plate requires some time getting used to it. Vistflex is my favourite (Allflex - never tried. I find it unreasonably expensive). If you want to try Vistflex or Allflex, make sure that you order board with allflex inserts.

I think taking into account your experience and "sport" interests you most probably outgrow your entry board very quickly. If I would be you, I just would get some cheap used board for start (with SCR of 9.5m-11m). Ride it for couple of months. Promote it to "rock" board. And then order high end metal board if you like hardboot carving. I personally prefer SG and Coiler...

Edited October 15, 2020 by dgCarve

[jng]

Even the 325s do not have enough forward flex IMHO. Mod them (or 700s) with BTS aftermarket springs sold by Bomber. Or you can go with UPZs which have built in springs. 

[Jack M]

Welcome @weather_nerd!

The first step to success in hardboots is to get really good at carving in softboots.  Can you carve your downhill edge?

What do you weigh?  The Voyager is softer than the Freecarve. 

Deeluxe boots really need the aftermarket BTS kit.  Without them, the forward lean adjuster actually locks out the ankle hinge, and all flex comes from just deforming the shell.  Yuck!

You may also need to add these pads to the outside of the liners to reduce heel lift, which is common with Deeluxe. 

UPZ boots are famous for heel hold, and have a good spring system, but the stock liners are usually tossed in favor of Intuition liners, probably Power Wrap or Alpine.  Deeluxe come with rebranded Intuition liners, and Donek does board+boot+binding packages with Deeluxe.  UPZ RC12s out of the box are softer than Deeluxe T700s, and stiffer than 325s.  UPZ offers tongues in 4 different stiffnesses if adjusting the spring system isn't enough.

Definitely get an extra lift kit for the F2 bindings (check the size).  They only come with one.  You want one under the heel of the rear foot and one under the toe of the front foot.  You'll have better comfort and mobility.  Start with no canting.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

[weather_nerd]

Thanks for the comments! I ended up going with the Freecarve after talking to Sean. I also went with the 325's but I plan on doing some modifications (BTS kit and maybe snugging up the heel). I might swap out the tongue too if I want to change the stiffness.

[weather_nerd]

12 hours ago, Jack M said:

The first step to success in hardboots is to get really good at carving in softboots.  Can you carve your downhill edge?

What do you weigh?  The Voyager is softer than the Freecarve. 

Yes, I'd say I'm a good carver on my softboot setup. I'm a smaller guy (5'8" 160 lbs) but I usually ride stiffer boards. I ended up going with the Freecarve!

 

On 10/14/2020 at 8:14 PM, dgCarve said:

Depending on snow conditions you ride, entry level non metal alpine boards could be not so great choice. For example Pacific North West conditions usually quite bad: heavy wet snow, icy, bumpy, good grooming if exists does not last more than couple of hours. 

About plates: there are different approaches to that, many recommend to learn without them... But I found that Vist and even better Vistflex, do not require any real adjustment of riding. Bomber Plate requires some time getting used to it. Vistflex is my favourite (Allflex - never tried. I find it unreasonably expensive). If you want to try Vistflex or Allflex, make sure that you order board with allflex inserts.

I think taking into account your experience and "sport" interests you most probably outgrow your entry board very quickly. If I would be you, I just would get some cheap used board for start (with SCR of 9.5m-11m). Ride it for couple of months. Promote it to "rock" board. And then order high end metal board if you like hardboot carving. I personally prefer SG and Coiler...

Conditions are usually iffy in AZ. Our storms are great, but they can be few and far between. I haven't thought about plates yet... I think I'll learn without them and give them a try if/when I get the chance. I ended up going with the Freecarve so hopefully that will last me a while.

 

On 10/14/2020 at 4:20 PM, SunSurfer said:

What brand ski boots did you fit? Be prepared to do the adjustments you may have used with your ski boots to get comfort, good heel hold down, and toe wiggle room. Deeluxe has a different combo of heel and forefoot width to the UPZs I ride which have a relatively narrow heel, wider forefoot. But Sean may not be able to sell you UPZs.

I used Heads and Technicas, but I never had them professionally fit (broke college student). I'm going to look into options to get the heels nice and snug if I need to.

 

[dgCarve]

38 minutes ago, weather_nerd said:

Conditions are usually iffy in AZ. Our storms are great, but they can be few and far between. I haven't thought about plates yet... I think I'll learn without them and give them a try if/when I get the chance. I ended up going with the Freecarve so hopefully that will last me a while.

Freecarve is great board. I have Freecarve Secret Construction 180cm 11m-13m SCR.  It is very fun board when conditions right. But when it is icy, especially when there are lots of small icy bumps, edge hold can't compare with "dumpier" metal boards. Still rideable, but it will penalize you for any small mistake in such conditions. Well, it just mean that your alpine boards quiver will grow very fast...all addicted alpine snowboarders have this problem...  

[barryj]

Welcome WN ! 

WIthout a doubt Sean can set you on the right path with a complete setup!

My .02,   I found the 325's softer than the 700's and the 700's softer than the 425's.   I use the 325's with Bomber BTS Blue springs for my pow setup on a Moss PQ 160 that will carve the groomers or bust thru waist deep pow on Bomber TD3 SW SI's

I owned/rode multiple generations of 700's over the years but kept deforming them as they got older/softer so moved up to the stiff 425's and that was a great performance boost in it's self.

As for fit, most guys go a whole size Down from their normal/street/boot size.  For me I'm usually a 11.5 to 12 but I  ride Mondo 28 which is a 10 in US size..........so don't fear going smaller as you can get a bootfitter to do a custom fit and even the best liners pack out over time.

Again Welcome!   .and let us know how the carving curve goes.

[Jack M]

Sounds good.  Donek Freecarve is a legendary board, seems like most North American carvers have owned them at some point in their career.  Enjoy!

[TLN]

BIndings: easiest question. Go with F2 Race Ti.

Boots: Deeluxe 325 if you're light (cant find your weight), 700 if you're 200+lbs. Check UPZ as well, those have better plastic and spring that you can adjust.

Board: get something cheap. It will be more fun than your most expensive soft boot board. Used for $200 here will do it, seriously.

[b.free]

12 minutes ago, TLN said:

BIndings: easiest question. Go with F2 Race Ti.

Boots: Deeluxe 325 if you're light (cant find your weight), 700 if you're 200+lbs. Check UPZ as well, those have better plastic and spring that you can adjust.

Board: get something cheap. It will be more fun than your most expensive soft boot board. Used for $200 here will do it, seriously.

Agree, UPZ has better heal box and great spring mechanism. And get a used board as a first board instead of buying a new one, it would be easier to understand what you really need in the future. And get something shorter and wider like 160 long and 21+ wide. It will be easier to transit from soft to hard stance. And don't get any plates, they are worthless if you don't know why you need it. Just get a board, boots and bindings. Easy and simple. And less weight. Good luck and visit CO sometimes, we have a pretty big group of hard booters over here.

Edited October 16, 2020 by b.free

[weather_nerd]

14 hours ago, barryj said:

As for fit, most guys go a whole size Down from their normal/street/boot size.  For me I'm usually a 11.5 to 12 but I  ride Mondo 28 which is a 10 in US size..........so don't fear going smaller as you can get a bootfitter to do a custom fit and even the best liners pack out over time.

Agreed. My soft boots are a US 10. I used to wear 27.5's when I skied so I went with a 27 in the 325's. Thanks!

10 hours ago, TLN said:

Boots: Deeluxe 325 if you're light (cant find your weight), 700 if you're 200+lbs. Check UPZ as well, those have better plastic and spring that you can adjust.

I'm 160 lbs, so it sounds like I made the right choice with the 325's.

[BlueB]

10 hours ago, weather_nerd said:

Agreed. My soft boots are a US 10. I used to wear 27.5's when I skied so I went with a 27 in the 325's. Thanks!

I'm 160 lbs, so it sounds like I made the right choice with the 325's.

The best is to completely forget the street size of the shoe and just measure your foot in cm, rounding off to nearest 0.5. 

27.5 and 27 are the same shell, btw. 

[rst]

On 10/14/2020 at 4:04 PM, weather_nerd said:

Hi ...

do you have anyone riding hardboot setup near you to help you on first day?

 

if not:

• it is ok to use bunny hill first day
• set forward lean on front boot the least possible (almost straight) - rear boot 2 clicks more aggressive
• your hardboot stance will be narrower than your softboot one

 

you can think about transition soft->hard e.g. get your stiffest board, ride it with alpine bindings and boots ... stance angles something like 45/37 ... in this case you will have only half of setup you unfamiliar with

 

good luck!!!

 

PS

did the same 2 seasons ago... first one was hardboots + bx board - absolutely different fun... then on nationals tried as much alpine boars as I could and chose one

 

PPS

you may want to consider Montucky in Feb

[Corey]

In addition to the great advice above, spend some time carpet surfing before you ever get on the snow. Hard boots and bindings can fight you if/when they haven't been adjusted to work with your body proportions instead of against it. This leads to you being exhausted quickly. 

There are many opinions on setting up boots and bindings. A universal truth is that if you can't stand having both feet clipped in for more than a minute on carpet, it's not going to get better on the snow. 

* Pro tip: Move that one-of-a-kind glass coffee table a little further away. 

Pressure on your back leg's shin? Increase forward lean or raise heel of that end. Weird pressure on side of your leg? Change boot or binding cant. These are way nicer to adjust over a few hours in your living room than at the top of a ski lift! 

Even advanced riders do this before the season. Maybe they're crazy for snow, maybe they're just confirming. A little of A, a little of B...

A good setup supports you rather than forcing you into something you're not. And, it will change over time as you learn and develop a preferred riding style.

Have fun out there, and post up your first impressions from carpet and from snow! 

[SunSurfer]

33 minutes ago, Corey said:

In addition to the great advice above, spend some time carpet surfing before you ever get on the snow. Hard boots and bindings can fight you if/when they haven't been adjusted to work with your body proportions instead of against it. This leads to you being exhausted quickly. 

There are many opinions on setting up boots and bindings. A universal truth is that if you can't stand having both feet clipped in for more than a minute on carpet, it's not going to get better on the snow. 

* Pro tip: Move that one-of-a-kind glass coffee table a little further away. 

Pressure on your back leg's shin? Increase forward lean or raise heel of that end. Weird pressure on side of your leg? Change boot or binding cant. These are way nicer to adjust over a few hours in your living room than at the top of a ski lift! 

Even advanced riders do this before the season. Maybe they're crazy for snow, maybe they're just confirming. A little of A, a little of B...

A good setup supports you rather than forcing you into something you're not. And, it will change over time as you learn and develop a preferred riding style.

Have fun out there, and post up your first impressions from carpet and from snow! 

Coming from soft boots you are more likely to prefer binding angles that will probably benefit from some inward canting of your bindings or boot cuffs.

You're a climate scientist. You should have no problem getting your head around the ideas about how your body proportions and binding angles interact with tilting your bindings along either axis. Search YouTube for "binding angle secant curve" to get a primer in how this all links together. Then try binding angles you prefer and use your new understanding to make reasoned adjustments to your setup. Carpet carve as Corey, (who is very knowledgeable) suggests to check that it all feels comfortable. Welcome to the obsessive world of out of season setup experimentation!

[st_lupo]

To help you get figure out how to setup your boots/bindings/stance so that you get a good neutral/centered position think of the Vitruvian Man diagram.  A good setup (for me) resulted in a comfortable planted feeling without exerting any force on the boots.

While you are carpet surfing, take a bit of time and rotate your hips clockwise and counter-clockwise (about 30 or so degrees in each direction from your neutral stance) and look at the result on the edges of the board.  THAT highlights why correct body posture is so critical to this sport.