Backlands in the Backland

[philw]

I thought maybe this would go in "videos" but that's "videos of people carving" and there's not a lot of carving here, but it is "all mountain" hard booting.

This is a Burton Skeleton Key 154, F2 Race Titanium bindings, Atomic Backlands with Phantom Levers.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by philw

[lamby]

Sweet! How do you like the set-up?

[JRAZZ]

Btw, are these the carbon version?

Trying to figure out which ones to get. 

[philw]

I didn't really notice any difference in riding these (Atomic Backland Carbon / F2 Race Ti/ Phantom Link levers) versus my previous set up (HSP, F2 Intec). These are the Carbon boots - light, but not as light as the "ultra light" ones which I think have only one buckle - these have two buckles plus a power strap.

The boots are noticeably lighter at less than half the weight of the HSP/Intec combination. I think they're stiffer (which I like). As noted elsewhere I used the Link levers because I needed more forward lean than the Atomic levers provided, not because I wanted springs. In practice I felt that I could probably easily overpower the springs so they were likely not relevant, although I've no real evidence of that.

Bear in mind that in that type of snow you can ride without buckles pretty easily - it's not the same kind of test as hard pack.

The boots look small and skinny, which is slightly worrying in the cold, but I had no issues at minus 10 - minus 15. I didn't bake the liners as they fit fine out of the box and my advice was baking would not improve that.

[Beckmann AG]

13 hours ago, JRAZZ said:

Trying to figure out which ones to get.

Are you looking to buy 'new', or 'new old stock'?

 One of the gains from the 'Carbon' model is the carbon cuff inlay may (if you're the type to notice things) enhance feedback.

The lower shell plastic is relatively easy to form, but does not 'bounce back' as readily as typical polyurethane.

The latter being relevant if you need to punch for hot spots. (The last is fairly narrow).

Previous versions could be skied with or without two different tongue configurations.

 

Am wondering if the location of the Boa winder on the most recent models will be problematic for 'more aggressive' riders?

 

 

[JRAZZ]

I’m thinking of trying these as a replacement for soft boots. I would either buy used or wait for summer sales. In the meantime I’m trying to figure out whether I want carbon or the regular kind. 

[jng]

On 1/11/2020 at 6:47 AM, JRAZZ said:

I’m thinking of trying these as a replacement for soft boots.

I just rode my Backland Pros + Link Levers for first time for some early BC powder turns. I am seriously considering replacing my freeride resort setup - Malamute/Flows. The Backland flex is softer than my current setup even with stiffest springs (which I am technically underweight for), but it didn't feel too soft, at least in powder. I'll need to test in other conditions before I decide to pull the trigger. 

[pow4ever]

Had atomic backland in the closet for a long time.  added DGSS by drupi.
It didn't work for me for whatever reason (likely because i don't spent the time to try and dial stuff in).
i tried it few seasons ago with burton race plate (flat/no lift) and wasn't happy with carve/pow performance.

Atomic backland + burton race plate on Jones Hovercraft 163 - OMG....  this combo work really well in deep powder.  45 front/40 back 20" (too much forward lean on the front and not enough lean in the back).  floaty and nimble.

On 165 contra all mountain: 23 cm
Now i can kinda tell what the setup is telling me: let tinkerbelling begin
Adjust front boot to tiny bit of forward lean and more preload on spring
add medium amount of forward lean on the back
SG binding big block toe lift(front) and big heel lift (back)
lower angle from 60/60 to 50/50 due to the wider waist,
backland carve pretty damn good; not as good as dedicated hardboots but in soft-ish (couple day after dump); this is the perfect setup for soft/bump carve.  technique need some adjustment.  start the turn from feet and not higher up (shin).

i am keeping it.

 

[Xargo]

Hawx is also an option. I broke two pairs of Backland Carbons last season. Now I'm trying Hawx Ultra XTDs and they have lasted longer already than those two pairs I broke, combined. Really happy with this setup. The Backlands I broke were versions with BOA. I'm pretty sure it's the BOA support bracket inside the boot that causes a break line if the cuff of the boot is engaged with too much force laterally. My riding style can be pretty aggressive though so maybe even BOA Backlands can handle some casual riding. The second pair broke when I was riding casually though. Just for a reference this is the type of riding I did with Backlands and now with Hawx Ultras:

I really liked how Backlands rode and was really sad when I broke the second pair exactly the same way as the first one but these Hawx Ultras ride even better. Really happy with the setup and I hope they will last.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Xargo

[pow4ever]

On 2/1/2023 at 7:59 AM, Xargo said:

Hawx Ultras ride even better. Really happy with the setup and I hope they will last.

thank you for the feedback!  
How heavy are you?  no issue with the std F2 bail?

knock on wood.  i have the 2019 version (no BOA).
love to hear you reason(s) on why you are not using alpine snowboard boots? 
(my back foot is the problem, so likely i need to mix boot in order to ride)
(how wide is the toe box? and hopefully it can be punched out)
i might have to do the same...  DGSS on backland will work on Hawk Ultra xtd?

EDIT:  much more info here(weight, where it crack and etc).  Went to the shop today and check out XTD.  A bit taller than backland which is good.

 

[philw]

Slight update on my Phantom Levers. I bought them when they first came out... can't remember when that was, but pre Covid at least. After a few seasons use, all of it "downhill only", I found that the levers sometimes automatically switched into "walk mode", which I never use as I'm too lazy to walk.

It seemed to get worse... that may be that the snow the last few weeks has been deep and a bit heavier than usual, or it may be that my new pants are less tight (ohh, err..) than the last ones. Whatever, it became a frequent issue. A ski strap holds the things in place, but the permanent temporary fix was a tie-wrap ("cable tie" in other countries).

I pointed that out to Phantom, and their support admitted that they changed the design of the levers for their 2nd generation to avoid this. I bought some new levers plus a couple of the new head pieces, as I like to have 2 sets of everything... because hard boot spares are hard to find.

Phantom no longer provide a full set of springs with the levers; not a problem for me as I've a full set from the 1st generation.

Actually I've been using the standard (gold?) springs all the time, as they clearly work. Has anyone mucked around with the springs and if so... any views on that? Do you ride with both springs the same, or soften/ stiffen just one of them?

I can't really imagine I could improve on things, hence I've not dicked with the springs.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by philw
typo fix

[pow4ever]

thank you philw! 
No experience with phantom here but FWIW I like stiffer spring on the front boot and softer on the back.

[Xargo]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:54 AM, pow4ever said:

love to hear you reason(s) on why you are not using alpine snowboard boots? 

(my back foot is the problem, so likely i need to mix boot in order to ride)
(how wide is the toe box? and hopefully it can be punched out)
i might have to do the same...  DGSS on backland will work on Hawk Ultra xtd?

Dunno how I missed this but better late than never. I have couple of reasons why I like Hawx more than alpine snowboard boots. The most important bit is flex. I also have Swoard EC12 boots and while they offer very very nice customizable flex back and forth, they don't flex sideways the way I would like. For high binding angles they are great but not so much for duck stance for an example. That said, even Track 700s work with duck stance better than I expected but Hawx are just amazing for that. Another thing I like about Hawx is the lower ride height. It's still taller than I would like but better than alpine snowboard boots. Lately I've been riding about 50% duck and now I can ride my EC board with +47/+57 angles when groomers are fresh and then switch to -25/+25 duck setup without changing boots. I still like EC12s a lot and use them with my narrower boards.

DGSS works with Hawx Ultra XTD but since XTDs are meant to be unbuckled when hiking, the ankle pivot is rather sensitive to how tight you buckle. The way I'm now riding is that the top buckle is pretty tight, then the second buckle is really loose (to not restrict the pivot), the third buckle is pretty tight to prevent heel lift and the toe buckle is pretty loose not to pinch my toes too much. That brings me to the toe box which can be pretty tight when using F2 bindings. That's because the shell is really flexible so the toe box gets pinched a bit by the bindings. I also have vintage Elfgen bindings and those don't pinch the toes that much. Those have 5mm bails and no problems thus far. F2 heel bail also is too tall and I put some foam under the heel to fix that and it also cushions the ride a bit more. Punching the toe box shouldn't be a problem at all because the whole shell can be heat molded with the memoryfit process. Factory fit works for me but I did change the liner to Palau overlap since I like overlap more and the standard liner was also quite heavy.

It's starting to look like Hawx might replace my softboots totally but they won't replace EC12s. Lower ride height is the only reason I can think of why I would choose to ride sooftboots rather than the Hawx setup. Of course there are way stiffer Hawx models available than the 95 flex I bought but this soft flex works very well for me.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Xargo

[pow4ever]

@Xargo thank you for additional detail info (especially the bit on buckle/pivot hiking mode)!  I got a pair on sale based on your feedback. was really surprise at how well the backland work for me (in term of toe box width after just simple boot bag bake with zero heel lift).  hoping the fit is similar in HAWX
The pin on Hawx is much easier to drive out than the Backland to install DGSS.  Duck stance in hardboot is definitely interesting.  Look like it's working awesome for you.
i am mixing boots with great result this season.  whatever work  

[philw]

[quote]...love to hear you reason(s) on why you are not using alpine snowboard boots? [/quote]I used to use those, but they were very heavy. When I tried the Backlands... it turned out they seemed to perform better from the get go, to me.

"Alpine Snowboard Boots" all seemed to me to be based on last century moulds, and built from material of the same generation. Season on season they'd change the colours, but there's nothing new there. My Atomics are all carbon fibre sexy, and as I was with hard boots from the start, I've no fears of using ski boots. In fact at least some of those Alpine Snowboard Boots are pretty much ski boots. That was why I took the risk, and I don't think I'll ever look back unless someone builds a brand new hard snowboard boot from scratch with modern principles. I feel kind of liberated - I could buy a Hawk boot if I want, finally I have a lot of choices.

 

---

I'm still massively impressed with these things, I really do think they're a game changer. Saw some guy leading a class of split boarders at Whistler the other day... and he was packing these too. We now actually have young snowboard school teachers who are riding hard boots. 

--

I swapped my Phantom gen 1 levers for the gen 2 and they are pretty much identical except for the gen 2 ones auto-flip into walk less often. You can see they made the lock tighter. I had one untoward "flip into walk" in deep snow, so maybe I will still need a bit of wire or something to completely prevent that (I never walk!).

[philw]

And another video of Backlands/ Phantoms / F2 at Blue River.

This one is at 40°/30°, which puts me off the bottom scale on the F2s, but it works really well.

[philw]

Here's the difference between the generation one and generation two Phantom lever "heads". The new version is on the right, and also has a little white "P" logo stamped on the outside. The U-shaped bit which grips the boot rod is very subtly tighter. I also fitted mine with crossed tie-wraps as I don't need walk mode: I can walk in ski boots! And drive, cycle and even possibly ski.

I like the fact that lots of Atomic's line of boots will  take these levers. If I wanted stiffer/ heavier, there are plenty of choices with those Hawx etc, and they're all modern designs. Or if my boots die in the hard-boot wasteland of North America... I could just get some rental Hawx boots and make it work.

I was trying to figure out if I actually turn differently when using these levers/boots, versus my old Head Stratos Pro etc. I think my turns are rounder now, that the transition particularly with the back foot at the start of a turn is a little bit smoother.... but it's hard to be sure I'm not kidding myself. I made some other changes whilst switching to these too: my board is a new design which definitely suits me; it's shorter than I used to ride, so likely more responsive; and thanks to someone here whose advice I took... I mellowed out my back foot angle somewhat. Oh well, it's all good, doesn't matter why.

 

And here's the Gen 2 Phantom levers as shipped. I presume they send the 10mm metric wrenches because in the US no one has them. It seems overkill. The Gen 1 levers had small cheap disposable wrenches. I do think their industrial design is better than the competition - these are neat and sexy.