Newbie Advice Wanted

[bryandifrancesco]

ADVICE WANTED:

I've just joined alpinesnowboarder.com because I'm looking for a new challenge - alpine carving snowboarding. I've been watching others carve amazing turns for years and want to experience it myself. I am a 41 year old accomplished alpine skier, telemark skier and snowboarder and I'm looking forward to this new challenge. I'm 5'11" and 170lbs. Boot size is 9.5.

I want to get into this sport right the first time. What do you suggest?

I've been in contact with YYZCannuck, UPZ, Bola and Coiler. I typically prefer to buy new equipment that is fitted to me rather than trying other's used stuff and attempting to make it work, but I'm totally open to your suggestions. I live in Hamilton, Ontario and ride in Ellicottville, New York.

Thank you!

[dredman]

Welcome to the Forum!

Sean at Donek, Mark at Thirst and Bruce at Coiler will all build you an amazing first, 2nd, 3rd.....board. They are all very high quality builders.  Let them guide you.  They do know best!

You are talking to the right folks, don’t forget Bomber https://www.bomberonline.com/ for Fin-Tech boot heels, BTS and maybe some bindings.  

Welcome!

 

 

[Missionman]

I've given bad advice before on this forum I'm sure, but i thought i would respond to, and welcome, a fellow Ontarian. 

Somewhere on this forum is a thread about the differences in fit for different types of feet between UPZ and Deeluxe, but living where you live, it would be worth your while to visit YYZ and try on some boots.   Then you can get hooked up with bindings at the same time . 

One of the coolest aspects with hardbooting is the custom made boards - that idea blew my mind when I read the about it on alpinecarving.com.  There's nothing wrong with used snowboards, especially if you want to try things out because you can always just sell them again.  Lots of guys here do that.  But at some point you will want one built just for you, and especially a 'metal'/titanal board (which, actually are becoming more common amongst used boards in classifieds).  And if money is no object, you can, as Dredman says, just have a 2nd, 3rd ... board made to suit whatever change in carving experience you are looking for.  Again, living where you live, I'd start with Bruce as you already have, if only because he is a fellow Ontarian ( can't beat the value either IMO, with our terrible CAD$, but Bruce is awesome anyways).  With your ski and snowboard background I imagine you will take to carving very quickly, but you'd probably want to start on a smaller sidecut board (not bigger than Bruce's 10.5/12.7/12m VSR), esp riding where you might ride in Ellicottville.    

anyways, that's my advice.  Probably re-inforcing what you have already read on these boards.

Welcome!

[Freezer]

Welcome to the sport!  Given your background you should do well carving.  Since you asked for advice, here are two high level recommendations from my 25 years of trenching:

1.  Since you're near Bruce, talk to him about an appropriate board and boot setup.  He's extremely experienced, practical, a great dude, and his board prices are a steal.  Follow his advice assiduously and you'll save yourself a lot of time and frustration.

2.  When selecting boots and bindings, err on the side of flexible vs. stiff.  A flexible setup allows you to move your body dynamically and carve fluidly and with style.  Stiff/rigid setups can be great for experienced carvers on a specific type of terrain and snow quality, but for learning and for potentially varied terrain they can be frustrating.  If you've ever seen somebody carving awkwardly like a rigid stickman, chances are that their boot/binding setup is too stiff, making it difficult or physically impossible for them to position and move their body appropriately.

Good luck and have fun!

[AcousticBoarder]

Welcome to the forums and to carving! 

As others have said, you are already in the right direction, and you should do well with your background experience. 

Board advice is spot on. I'd recommend going with Bruce at coiler because of location (and I prefer his builds anyway) but the only downside is it may be next season until you can get one. He is really a one man operation and hand builds each board. Donek is another option and he can crank out boards in a matter of days. Thirst is another, somewhat newer option now, and lots like the different riding style of his boards, more centered than fore and aft pressure. There's also the non custom options (SG, among others) or the expensive options (Kessler, oxess). There is also the option of used. As long as you are in the right weight range and on a friendly board within the last 10 or so years, you should be just fine. 

The other big thing in my opinion is boots. As a skier you probably know your mondo size, so start there, new or used. Main choices are deeluxe and upz. Take them in to a good boot fitter and get that all squared away, new liner if needed (like ski boots, the liners can be molded a few times, so used boots are not a big deal either), so that way you are not having to worry about foot comfort and can just focus on technique.

Bindings may take some time to figure out. Once you have a board and boots, just start on the carpet and figure out what is comfortable. Generally most are using angles somewhere around 60 degrees, often with some toe lift in the front and practically always heel lift in the back. Many also use some amount of outward or inward canting but not always; it is really whatever feels comfortable to you. Since all of this is adjustable, you really can't go wrong new or used. Different bindings will have different flexes though, some prefer stiff setups, some soft and flexy. 

[daveo]

12 hours ago, bryandifrancesco said:

I want to get into this sport right the first time.

I typically prefer to buy new equipment that is fitted to me rather than trying other's used stuff and attempting to make it work.

Good thinking.

12 hours ago, bryandifrancesco said:

I'm 5'11" and 170lbs. Boot size is 9.5.

How long in cm?

 

I can share a little bit of experience with you, so hopefully you don't make any of my mistakes. Buy it nice or buy it twice!

Boots

Can depend on foot shape, but judging by how many riders are using Mountain Slope .951 in the world cup now (almost 100% of males, for instance), it seems racers are just getting fitted to the superior boot regardless of foot shape. Not sure that's a road you'd want to go down if you have a weird Deeluxe foot, but it is an option.

Deeluxe if you have a wide heel and narrow forefoot like a mutant. There are people who are happy with Deeluxe. I was not. Most people who move away from Deeluxe do so due to heel lift due to the excessive space around the heel pocket in the boot shell. Keep in mind, these do not come with a spring forward lean mech anymore so most people install one (like DGSS, which is quite good or BTS, which I felt was garbage) to get a more natural flex.

UPZ/Mountain Slope if you have a narrower heel and wider forefoot like a normal human. I've had both. To me, when compared to UPZ (and Deeluxe) Mountain Slope have:

• Superior liner. The UPZ liners are generally disliked and replaced. There are some who like it, most don't. I didn't. Actually, I hated it. I have sensitive feet from 10 years of wearing 100m sprint spikes. The new Mountain Slope liner is a good quality liner, although I still fitted a pair of Zipfit GP liners, which are amazing, but as I understand there is a love/hate thing going on with Zipfits.
• Superior shell flex and forward lean mech. Mountain Slope flex coming predominantly from the substantial spring system, as opposed to differing degrees of flexible tongues with a small spring system like in UPZ, or entirely from the tongue like Deeluxe.
• Superior top strap to UPZ. The UPZ top strap frayed on me and the MS one feels indestructible. In saying that, it isn't the greatest top strap as it has no give whatsoever and for that reason most people replace it with a BOOSTER. I replaced mine with a G-Style top strap. Deeluxe 425 Pro T come with a Booster, but you obviously wouldn't buy a boot for that reason.
• Most importantly, superior shell design. The design of the MS shell when compared to the UPZ shell I feel naturally give me better overall foot hold and comfort. The cuff is higher on the MS boots and the ramp angle isn't extreme like the UPZ

As you'd know, regardless of boot, expect there to be some shell fitting involved (grinding, punching etc). 99% sure you have a bootfitter but if you don't, Andrea from YYZ can surely recommend one.

Depending on your foot size in cm, if you fit a shell B, then I'd recommend Mountain Slope .951 World Cup in shell B or if you fit a shell C, then Standard in shell C. The stiffness of the shells are not the same across the range, the larger sizes are stiffer than the smaller sizes. Keep in mind that the Standard stiffness boot comes with Medium and Soft forward lean springs and the World Cup with Medium and hard forward lean springs. So the boots are tune-able in stiffness to some degree. There are also a total of 3 stiffnesses of tongues (100, 110, 120) and 4 stiffnesses of springs (green, blue, red, yellow [least to most stiff]) you can buy to adjust your boots to your tastes.

I personally don't believe the softer boots are better for beginners stuff. I once sprained my ankle in a boot that I overflexed and I recently taught my partner to snowboard while wearing my Mountain Slope 951World Cup stiffness boots, so it isn't like stiffener boots are just for racing or hard carving. Plus, you are an accomplished skier and boarder, you can start with the boot you'll stay in for life. I'd buy these new because they will need the most personalisation.

Liners & Footbeds

I assume you have custom footbeds, so you can just put those in the boots. Liners, good to try the stock ones, they don't always work out regardless of which they are. Custom foamed from BootDoc are recommended from MS, Sidas apparently didn't work well. I tried the BootDocs and they didn't work for me, I went with Zipfit and could not be happier.

Board

I'd get something to learn on but also still be good for when you are a more advanced rider, I wouldn't bother with anything too flexible or old or a 'learning' board. Nothing too long (unless you get a Coiler and Bruce recommends otherwise). I'd stay within the 162-168 length. Longer boards in general need more speed to start a turn, which in turn can make it a little bit more difficult to learn on your first day's. Something 20cm wide and maybe 8-12 side cut range. 

• Kessler The Alpine 168
• Oxess SXR166 in Medium stiffness
• Coiler Nirvana with whatever specs Prof. BV recommends
• SG Full Carve 163

You could get this used if you know what board you want and find the right one. In saying that a Coiler custom is a right bargain. Personally, I wouldn't even look outside of those 4 brands above (judgement reserved on Thirst until I try one for myself) but that's just me.

Bindings

F2 Race Ti. Size Medium for shell b and c MS. Nuff said.

Get an extra lift kit since they only come with 1. Ride flat cant unless you know otherwise for a specific biomechanical issue.

Edited March 28, 2019 by daveo

[Aracan]

My 2 cents: Don't get hung up on boards and bindings at the beginning. You can lose yourself in that rabbit hole later on. The boots make or break the alpine deal. If your boots don't fit, you will have a lousy time on any board, in any binding. If they do fit, it will still work, to a degree. Try them on, have them tweaked, until they fit.

[Haus]

I just started riding an alpine board 2 seasons ago. Im from st.catharines and ride at kissing bridge. Since we live and ride at pretty much the same location, and I just went through the same process, this is what I would do, if I could do it all over again. 

My suggestion would be to get boots first. Since your so close, go visit Andrea at yyz, and try on the deeluxe boots and watch for heel lift, to get properly fitted for boots. If they dont work, get some upzboots. 

Get binding after boots, as the sole length is drastically different between upz and deeluxe. Sole length dictates binding size.  And I highly recommend stepin f2 bindings, the convenience of stepin is simply amazing. 

Board, get on Bruce's build list for an early December build. As others have stated, best bang for your buck and he rides the same icy hills as us, so he will know exactly what to build for you.  Once you have boots and bindings, go visit Bruce before your build and demo a couple boards to see which you like better. He will set up your bindings, give you a handful of boards, and if your lucky, meet up with you at mslm for a couple runs, and give you pointers on your riding. 

[AgassizSkidder]

There are two things that saved me from selling all my gear and saying **** it!

1- Comfortable boots that fit properly.

2- Read this and follow the binding set up advice. It made all the difference for me. http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/a-hardboot-manifesto-v1

Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BlueB]

13 hours ago, bryandifrancesco said:

accomplished alpine skier, telemark skier and snowboarder and I'm looking forward to this new challenge

Boot size is 9.5.,

Welcome. You'll learn this quickly,  looking at your snow experience. 

Boot size 9.5 doesn't mean mutch,  you need Mondo size (physical length of foot in cm, like 27.4 or so). 

If you had AT boots, or very soft freeride ski boots, they might work just fine, especially if they are fully fitted already. 

At your weight you don't need very stiff bindings. 

If buying new, you can get all you need in Canada: Coiler, YYZ, Dan Yoja... It works out cheaper with current exchange rate. 

[Gabe T]

Glad to hear you’re looking into joining the community!   I started skiing around your age and I definitely think that experience along with your boarding experience will help.

17 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Welcome. You'll learn this quickly,  looking at your snow experience. 

No pressure, but I’d expect the same.    : )

Just this past week, I had the experience of helping out a newbie get her first taste on an alpine board.   She has skied for a few years and more recently took up snowboarding as well.    After expressing some interest in trying it, she was on a setup within a week!  (I often hear comments from people wanting to try but most never follow through with it)  Bruce was kind enough to loan her his wife’s equipment to try out.   We’re into the spring conditions these days but the quietness of the hill made it ideal to learn and get a feel for the equipment.

I had seen that she was pretty competent on skis and board so was pretty confident she could pick it up.   Took a couple of short runs accompanied with some tips and that was pretty much enough to get her going on her own.    I met up later to check on her progress and she was already carving linked turns.   : )    I was a bit surprised when I found out later that she had only been snowboarding for less than a year!   Confident that she will be pursuing it further and getting her own equipment.

Would be happy to help you out if you’re ever at Mount St. Louis.

[billyt.]

Welcome!  Are you confused yet?  They all mean well and they are glad that you are stoked.

[daveo]

5 hours ago, billyt. said:

Welcome!  Are you confused yet?  They all mean well and they are glad that you are stoked.

I've been confused since the day I stepped on snow.

...

Many ways to skin a cat. I reckon all approaches here are good!

[billyt.]

It’s funny how new members are bombarded with riders likes or dislikes in an effort to help.  The tech articles page Norm, or even Carvers Almanac, should be good advice for newbies.  Or a section in the forum where instructors can give some basic instruction.  Maybe Beckmann would want to advise?

[Jack M]

Welcome!  Really the first step before buying anything is to make sure you are actually carving your current softboot gear.  Can you carve the downhill edge?  Can you do The Norm?  If the answer is yes then you'll have a much easier time with hardboots.

[daveo]

My opinion differs from @Jack M's in this instance. 

I couldn't carve on softboots. First turn I made on hardboots was a carve.

My friend's experience this year in Japan mirrors mine when he borrowed my hardboot gear. He's a very accomplished softboot backcountry freerider but can't carve to save his life. First turn on the Kessler 168... Boom epic carve. Then with the Apex plate even better. Actually carved the whole half day. Next half day he was carving on my Oxess with Vistflex plate.

Surprisingly he much preferred the Oxess set up over the Kessler. Remarked how amazing riding a plate was and how it enables riding/carving in such poor conditions. Maybe my love for them rubbed off on him.

After this I think it is fine for someone to use a plate from the get go if they have the means to do it. @bryandifrancesco

[Beckmann AG]

On 3/28/2019 at 9:56 PM, daveo said:

Many ways to skin a cat. I reckon all approaches here are good!

The shotgun approach leaves you more pulp than pelt, which is fine, if the goal is to merely kill the cat.

To extract something of value from the practice, it pays to be more exacting in your process.

 

As with other threads of this nature, there's a lot of anodyne suggestion from well-meaning enthusiasts; offered with almost no useful information regarding the athlete.

That's good for re-allocation of resource, but hardly a path to success.

 

On 3/29/2019 at 7:16 AM, billyt. said:

Or a section in the forum where instructors can give some basic instruction.  Maybe Beckmann would want to advise?

Assuming you’re already familiar with the 'educational' content on my site, what else would you like to see, or think would be useful?

[daveo]

41 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

The shotgun approach leaves you more pulp than pelt, which is fine, if the goal is to merely kill the cat.

To extract something of value from the practice, it pays to be more exacting in your process.

 

As with other threads of this nature, there's a lot of anodyne suggestion from well-meaning enthusiasts; offered with almost no useful information regarding the athlete.

That's good for re-allocation of resource, but hardly a path to success. 

He asked for gear advice, he got gear advice.

What is your suggestion for him regarding gear? 

[billyt.]

I am not sure if it would be a good idea to have him read your manifesto right off the bat?  It is almost like a religious crusade/a calling!  Maybe your own YouTube channel?

If Bryan is on the east coast, the gear should be damp and good for tighter trails with good edge hold.  

[bryandifrancesco]

Thanks everyone for such amazing feedback! I've read your replies a few times now and continue to digest this community's wisdom. After 30 years of riding I decided this weekend to turn my freestyle bindings and I experienced snowboarding new again! 

I can't wait to get on a friend's hardboot setup next weekend (UPZ, intec step ins and a Coiler carving board) and another's Coiler BX softboot board. 

Your passion comes through in each of your replies and I'm energized and super stoked to be embarking on something new for me,  that is actually quite original to the sport.

[Beckmann AG]

On 3/30/2019 at 10:04 AM, daveo said:

He asked for gear advice, he got gear advice.

Well, for one thing:

I clearly misread the original post. Had I not left my trusty monocle at the lens grinder for a tune-up that very morning, I likely would have shared your keen observation that the OP wanted a simple shopping list of equipment, rather than a nuanced response as to how one might proceed toward an activity that is very similar, and yet specifically different from his previous experience(s).

After all, it’s been established that no one can be told what alpine snowboarding is; you have to ‘see’ it for yourself.

On 3/30/2019 at 10:04 AM, daveo said:

What is your suggestion for him regarding gear?

->I remember that time I sought counsel of Bruce ‘Almighty’: He wisely suggested that if I was ‘going in’, I should go ‘all in’; at which point I convinced myself to buy the most performance I could afford.

And then some.

Doesn’t really matter that I hardly ever ride it, that the throttle response is more than my skill set can handle. At least I can talk about how sweet the ride will be when/if I ever take it out of storage.

Of course, the greater part of that minor issue, was not paying attention to the part about proven technology v. the latest shiny tech…

->Given the OP's evident (yet unstated) prowess at hockey, we can readily assume he’ll sail past the usual ‘obstacles to success’ on alpine gear, and should, therefore, buy only the best of what’s around, according to qualified consensus.

No point wasting time dallying over particular needs, wants or goals; lest the native hue of resolution be sicklied over with the pale cast of Thought.

Anyway, you were 100% right.

My bad.

[daveo]

9 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

left my trusty monocle at the lens grinder for a tune-up that very morning

Happens all the time, don't beat yourself up about it.

11 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

I remember that time I sought counsel of Bruce ‘Almighty’: He wisely suggested that if I was ‘going in’, I should go ‘all in’; at which point I convinced myself to buy the most performance I could afford.

And then some.

Doesn’t really matter that I hardly ever ride it, that the throttle response is more than my skill set can handle. At least I can talk about how sweet the ride will be when/if I ever take it out of storage.

Never heard anyone talking negatively about Bruce until now... Nice one to casually slip in there. 

Anyway you talking bikes or boards? 

13 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Of course, the greater part of that minor issue, was not paying attention to the part about proven technology v. the latest shiny tech…

If you're saying that any of my suggestions (Mountain Slope boots, F2 bindings, Kessler 168 boards etc) are not proven technology, then I'm worried that you're about to tell me the Earth is flat.

16 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

No point wasting time dallying over particular needs, wants or goals; lest the native hue of resolution be sicklied over with the pale cast of Thought.

Even though you've stopped by a thread asking for equipment advice and not provided any, you've at least provided some entertainment- for me if no one else. 

19 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Anyway, you were 100% right.

About time we saw eye to eye on something. 

[Aracan]

Ah, let's have a bit of internet discussion, seeing as my season is over anyway!

Regarding those MS boots: I have (and this is an important point if we are going to have a proper internet discussion) never touched, let alone worn them. From what I hear, however, their longitudinal stiffness is quite noticeably higher than I would like for my riding. So, they may be proven, but for some applications they may be proven wrong.

[daveo]

@Aracan Possibly. Not sure if this helps, but there are actually 2 stiffnesses of shells, 3 stiffnesses of tongues and 4 stiffnesses of springs. The springs you can give more or less preload to give more or less range/stiffness also.

From my own handling and ownership (owned Deeluxe 700 with BTS, 2 pair of UPZ RC10 with multiple tongues and DGSS and MS 951WC (I use red springs with minimal preload). Messed around with them all in a shop I found in Kanda, though.) I would say the WC version is about as stiff as the UPZ RCR and the Standard version is the same stiffness as the UPZ RC10.

But that's just my personal experience and it may well be wrong.

If it helps, I'm happy to make a video of me flexing both my current boots- UPZ RC10 w/blue blue DGSS and 951WC.  

But if you use UPZ RX8, then I would say there are no MS boots as flexy as those since my impression of the RX8 (RC8/AT8?) is that they are less stiff than the RC10, which are equivalent to the 951 standard in flex. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Edited April 1, 2019 by daveo

[Aracan]

The RX8 was a precedessor of the RC8. Same shape, but thicker plastic, hence stiffer. Still, I doubt that the MS boot can be set up as flexy as the UPZ with red tongues and green DGSS springs. Strangely, I cannot find the different tongues and springs in the MS webshop, only the two different basic stiffness flavours.