oh shit!

[west carven]

howdy

just saw this on the news... 10 injured... none seriously...

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by west carven

[Wolf]

You'd think there should be multiple safety systems to keep that from happening.  The good news is no very serious injuries.

[MarkJeangerard]

I was never in mountain operations, but I remember them talking about that (backloading?) happening. So scary. But yes, there are supposed to be failsafes. 

A friend of mine managed a Russian run  Bulgarian ski area while he was in the peace corps. Some of the stories he told me... I am not surprised by this in any way. 

[Buell]

Rollback. Scary thought. More than once I have considered the best jump location in case this happens. Especially when the lift is at capacity (and older).

So glad most lift riders were able to get off safely. I wonder what was going on with the people who went around the bullwheel?

Edited March 17, 2018 by Buell

[Calle]

Was there a month ago, Nice place. The lift didn't look that dodgy. The resort opened in 1988 so nothing is super old. 

A guess with the people going round is that there were a lot of tourists both with and without skis that never had seen snow going up just looking åt the view...

[billyt.]

What is really upsetting was the amount of people just taking pictures of the accident when they could have been helping?

[MNSurfer]

55 minutes ago, billyt. said:

What is really upsetting was the amount of people just taking pictures of the accident when they could have been helping?

Welcome to the world of today.

[davekempmeister]

1 hour ago, billyt. said:

What is really upsetting was the amount of people just taking pictures of the accident when they could have been helping?

my first instinct is to agree with you but i also realize that some folks taking pictures IS actually helpful.  Taking photos is just not how i would react, myself.

Documentation is so important but i do wonder if the motive for the videography is voyeuristic or some type of perverse entertainment.

Edited March 17, 2018 by davekempmeister

[Calle]

How much more can they really do? There are people standing uphill shouting jump and some who drag people away. I dont think more people involved necesarily would be better?

[lowrider]

I can't stress how important it is to be aware of you surroundings at all times driving, boarding, skiing, riding lift etc. The people who had the presence of mind to instruct people to jump off were the real heroes and could anticipate the best out of a bad situation. As far as helping those being piled on by debris not possible till the mayhem stopped . Sometimes even the simple things like clearing snow  immediately ahead of the loading area can prevent accidents caused by ski tips catching the snow  immediately after loading the chair. Especially when the operators are swing the chair or holding them back causing them to pendulum as they move forward. Our local bump had a bull wheel drop a few years back with serious injuries to a person. Counterweight cable snapped and unforseen  things happened. (note to engineers ) The fix was to redesign with hydraulic tensioners but they only did 2 of  3 lifts still puzzled by that today and always pay extra attention when riding that lift. Glad to know no serious injury or death but a learning experience to all for sure ! The video will help prevent people from claiming bogus injury and damages

Edited March 17, 2018 by lowrider

[skategoat]

Anyone thinking this incident wouldn't happen here should be reminded of two incidents at Sugarloaf in less than 5 years. The first was a lift cable falling and the second a rollback in 2015. In both incidents, the chairlifts were over 25 years old. I have never been on a lift that old in any other part of the world.

[scottishsurfer]

3 hours ago, skategoat said:

Anyone thinking this incident wouldn't happen here should be reminded of two incidents at Sugarloaf in less than 5 years. The first was a lift cable falling and the second a rollback in 2015. In both incidents, the chairlifts were over 25 years old. I have never been on a lift that old in any other part of the world.

I'm pretty sure my local glencoe cliffhanger chair is older than i am and im 32 i cant find a date but i have a suspicsion its over 40 years old :/.....

[billyt.]

6 hours ago, Calle said:

How much more can they really do? There are people standing uphill shouting jump and some who drag people away. I dont think more people involved necesarily would be better?

It was just my first observation.  While watching it, there seems to be one guy clearing some skis out of the way, trying to do something while others were just holding up their phones.  I hope that no one was seriously injured.  Yes, documentation of the incident would be helpful for those who were hurt.  

[David Kirk]

I ran the snowboard school at Bridger Bowl, MT about 15 years ago and I sat in on risk management meetings with all the mountain management folks including ski patrol. At one meeting patrol showed a video of destructive testing being done on a lift that was going to be removed and replaced at an area in Colorado. They loaded the lift with sand bags to approximate the weight of riders and performed various tests.

The final test was disabling the brake and letting the lift do what it does when the forward drive isn't available and the brake won't hold it....it goes backward. How fast it goes backward depends on how many chairs are on the rope and how steep the slope is. In this case the lift was long (lots of chairs) and it was steep and the speed it went backward was shocking and nothing like the relatively slow movement shown in the video in this thread. It picks up speed slowly but it just keeps going faster and it gets really ugly.

When the backward speed peaked it was flinging 80 lbs sand bags over 120 ft and the chairs started ripping off the rope and they were landing more than 75 ft away in a sickening pile. The potential energy of all the weight on the uphill leg of the rope is massive.

We all watched the video and sat dumbfounded. We all knew it would be bad but the demonstration was shocking. Lift maintenance then talked to us about all the redundant systems in place to keep this from happening and we felt somewhat better. I then asked patrol what we should do if we are ever on a lift and it starts to move backward and is accelerating out of control. They told me it could be hard to tell when the shit is really hitting the fan and that if it moves backward a few feet that we shouldn't jump off....but at the same time if it's moving faster and faster that it's not going to end well and that you should jump off. Remove your gear if you can and then jump. The fall while moving backward will suck and you will be injured or killed. But if you ride the lower bullwheel at speed on a steep long lift you will be ripped apart.

Many of the folks in this video handled it very well and waited until they were close the the ground and got off and slid out of the way. But the chair was moving slowly compared to how it can go and if the chairs were moving 3-4 times that speed that tactic might not work well.

As was said above situational awareness is the ticket.

Be safe out there!

 

dave

[dingbat]

6 hours ago, skategoat said:

Anyone thinking this incident wouldn't happen here should be reminded of two incidents at Sugarloaf in less than 5 years. The first was a lift cable falling and the second a rollback in 2015. In both incidents, the chairlifts were over 25 years old. I have never been on a lift that old in any other part of the world.

How many hours have the lifts you've been on in other parts of the world had on them? More importantly, what were the attitudes, ideals, and morale of the lift maintainence staff that kept those lifts?

The roll back at Sugarloaf was caused by an issue related to hours of operation, not age. Number of starts and stops is another consideration. I've seen drives with less than a year on them approaching the same or similar failure that that chair had as well. There were some other issues w/that rollback as well that have zero to do with the age of the chair.

I'll take an old chair with a good maintainence crew over a new one with a bunch of schmucks working on it every time.

Edited March 17, 2018 by dingbat

[MarkJeangerard]

8 hours ago, skategoat said:

Anyone thinking this incident wouldn't happen here should be reminded of two incidents at Sugarloaf in less than 5 years. The first was a lift cable falling and the second a rollback in 2015. In both incidents, the chairlifts were over 25 years old. I have never been on a lift that old in any other part of the world.

No doubt. I was harking back to conversations in 2006. After reading your comment I googled and realized how over confident I am in the equipment i use regularly. 

[skategoat]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:35 PM, dingbat said:

I'll take an old chair with a good maintainence crew over a new one with a bunch of schmucks working on it every time.

You might want to give this a read. It's an eye opener and a bit scary.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-death-trap

Quote

Gary Mayo, a customer support manager for Doppelmayr USA in Salt Lake City, has compared the nation’s aging lifts to the iceberg that struck the Titanic.... “The earliest detachable lift installations in the United States have already surpassed the initial targeted life expectancy!” 

In the same article, the writer talks about the 2010 Sugarloaf failure:

Quote

An accident report from Maine’s Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety called the resort’s maintenance records “inadequate” and found no evidence that it had removed and checked the sheaves every four years as recommended by some Borvig manuals.

I'll just leave it at that.

Edited March 19, 2018 by skategoat

[Jack M]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:27 PM, skategoat said:

Anyone thinking this incident wouldn't happen here should be reminded of two incidents at Sugarloaf in less than 5 years. The first was a lift cable falling and the second a rollback in 2015. In both incidents, the chairlifts were over 25 years old. I have never been on a lift that old in any other part of the world.

I bet you have, even if you didn't know it.  Sunday River has a number of lifts easily over 25 years old.  One of their premier lifts, the Sunday River Express on Barker Mountain, is 30 years old.  The quad going up White Heat is 29 years old.  You can see the ages of all their lifts here, towards the bottom.  Sugarloaf's premier lift, the SuperQuad, is 25 years old.  It's running like a top, as far as we know.  They have several lifts even older.  Of course like all chairlifts they get maintained and retrofitted over time, so there's no equation which says a chairlift must be replaced after X years.  Maybe there should be?  Just be prepared to pay $150 for a day ticket.

 

[skategoat]

8 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I bet you have, even if you didn't know it.  Sunday River has a number of lifts easily over 25 years old.  One of their premier lifts, the Sunday River Express on Barker Mountain, is 30 years old.  The quad going up White Heat is 29 years old.  You can see the ages of all their lifts here, towards the bottom.  Sugarloaf's premier lift, the SuperQuad, is 25 years old.  It's running like a top, as far as we know.  They have several lifts even older.  Of course like all chairlifts they get maintained and retrofitted over time, so there's no equation which says a chairlift must be replaced after X years.  Maybe there should be?  Just be prepared to pay $150 for a day ticket.

 

What I meant was, I've never seen lifts in Europe or Asia that are as old as the ones we have in North America. The first time I snowboarded in Austria, I was blown away by their lifts. Automated RFID entry gates, conveyor belt loading and heated seats! Then I came back to Canada and went to Lake Louise and rode their gondola that must have been 50 years old. I know this has a lot to do with the fact that the lift systems are built in Europe and shipping costs must be enormous.

That Outside article I linked to is long but it's worth a read. It seems that a lot of the ski industry is in denial. They regulate themselves with very little or no independent oversight. I know most ski areas are conscientious about safety but running lifts that are 30 years old is not any different than driving a vintage car every day. The old car might look and run great and you might be religious about maintenance but you're not going to be able to spot metal fatigue and one day, you'll hit a pothole and the balljoint will just snap.

I don't know if you recall but I was at Sugarloaf the day the King Pine chair failed. That was too close to home for my liking. That chair was manufactured by Borvig and installed in 1975.  Borvig went out of business in 1993. Trying to find parts for one of those must be like owing a Studebaker. 

[lowrider]

Skategoat i'm going to call you out on the age of the Louise Gondola  but i realize your trying to make a point. The over design of many lift components make it almost impossible (highly unlikely) they would ever fail. Bull wheel, cable, grips and bearings  are way heavier than they really need to be and only a complete failure to maintain would cause an issue. Gear case oil analysis will indicate wear but only if it's done on a regular basis. The fact that older machinery has a history and a record of performance makes it in my mind more predictable and perhaps safer than newer less time tested lifts. A bad design will usually reveal itself shortly after being put into service. And hopefully corrected and monitored. Issues with braking systems and where it is placed in the drive assembly are issues that have been discovered and corrected. I've had the opportunity to ride an old lift just prior to cable replacement and first rides on a new lift and i'm still trying to figure out if there was any difference in the risk . YAN lifts have a terrible reputation but the major issue turned out to be more maintenance than design. I wonder which is safer an old ski lift  or an old 747 ?

[dingbat]

11 hours ago, skategoat said:

You might want to give this a read. It's an eye opener and a bit scary.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-death-trap

In the same article, the writer talks about the 2010 Sugarloaf failure:

I'll just leave it at that.

You might want to spend some time being head of lift ops. at a ski resort.

I saw pics of the tear down of the lift that rolled back at Sugarloaf on the cellphone of one of the techs involved along with a full rundown of what happened just days after they did it. Also got first hand account of the deropement they had previous. One of the perks of the job.

Hell, I've been out of that life a couple years now and still get the skinny on some stuff. Just ask Mellow Yellow, he's seen it.

 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, skategoat said:

What I meant was, I've never seen lifts in Europe or Asia that are as old as the ones we have in North America. The first time I snowboarded in Austria, I was blown away by their lifts. Automated RFID entry gates, conveyor belt loading and heated seats! Then I came back to Canada and went to Lake Louise and rode their gondola that must have been 50 years old. I know this has a lot to do with the fact that the lift systems are built in Europe and shipping costs must be enormous.

Agreed.  I wonder if it is simply the economy of demand or if they are also gov't subsidized.  It wouldn't surprise me if Austria and European alps countries subsidized ski lifts.  They have ski lifts there like we have baseball fields and basketball courts here.  On a summer motorcycle tour through the alps I was stunned at all the little towns along the way with lifts.  Good luck in the US asking taxpayers to subsidize people sliding down a snowy hill.

Profitable resorts like Park City and Okemo, etc, can have high speed bubble chairs with heated seats because a lot of people go there.  Sugarloaf is constantly riding the edge of sustainability because it is too far away from everywhere else.  This makes it both horrible and awesome at the same time. (old lifts, low crowds, friendly atmosphere)

2 hours ago, skategoat said:

They regulate themselves with very little or no independent oversight.

Ski lifts in Maine are regulated and overseen by the same government agency as elevators.  Fat lot of good that did though... typical... government incompetence, yadda yadda yadda.  However the industry and gov't is certainly more careful and aware since the Sugarloaf accident.

2 hours ago, skategoat said:

running lifts that are 30 years old is not any different than driving a vintage car every day

I don't think the car analogy is apt.  More like a drawbridge or elevator I'd say.

2 hours ago, skategoat said:

I don't know if you recall but I was at Sugarloaf the day the King Pine chair failed. That was too close to home for my liking. That chair was manufactured by Borvig and installed in 1975.  Borvig went out of business in 1993. Trying to find parts for one of those must be like owing a Studebaker. 

I remember seeing you at Sugarloaf, I forgot it was at that time.  I was too close to the Spillway accident, my mom was on one of the chairs that hit the ground.  A crappy cell-phone pic I took of the scene was on the front page of the Portland Press Herald, and several were picked up by the AP.  There were good samaritans all over the place.  As a photographer myself I think it's important to document things like this.  It's good that we have pics and video of the rollback in Georgia from multiple angles.  Of course I wouldn't have chosen picture-taking over life-saving if that had been a choice.

Borvig parts are available through Partek Ski Lifts in NY.

 

1 hour ago, lowrider said:

The over design of many lift components make it almost impossible (highly unlikely) they would ever fail

There are engineering standards for safety factors of just about everything.  Last I knew, the standard safety factor for suspending things in the air where human lives are at risk is 7.  So if the maximum load a haul rope will ever see is 100 tons (w.a.g.) then it is built to fail at 700 tons.

58 minutes ago, dingbat said:

I saw pics of the tear down of the lift that rolled back at Sugarloaf on the cellphone of one of the techs involved along with a full rundown of what happened just days after they did it. Also got first hand account of the deropement they had previous. One of the perks of the job.

AND??

[Beckmann AG]

3 hours ago, skategoat said:

That Outside article I linked to is long but it's worth a read. It seems that a lot of the ski industry is in denial. They regulate themselves with very little or no independent oversight. I know most ski areas are conscientious about safety but running lifts that are 30 years old is not any different than driving a vintage car every day. The old car might look and run great and you might be religious about maintenance but you're not going to be able to spot metal fatigue and one day, you'll hit a pothole and the balljoint will just snap.

I don't know if you recall but I was at Sugarloaf the day the King Pine chair failed. That was too close to home for my liking. That chair was manufactured by Borvig and installed in 1975.  Borvig went out of business in 1993. Trying to find parts for one of those must be like owing a Studebaker. 

The Outside article is a hodgepodge of not particularly helpful information. At best, it should encourage area operators to prioritize maintenance over appearance. But then it's a lot easier to paint the lift towers and make things shiny, than it is to meticulously examine and replace the wear items.

At worst, it scares people who lack a basic understanding of machinery.

As Jack pointed out, the car analogy isn't really valid. Lifts are subject to load scenarios that can be reasonably projected and evaluated, whereas cars see all sorts of variance based on how fast they are driven, and over what surfaces.

There's nothing inherently wrong with driving an older car. Spare parts are available, it just takes longer to source them. The problem comes when inspections are incomplete, or fraudulent. I've seen freshly inspected vehicles with completely trashed multi-link steering components, worn to the extent that I wouldn't chance a test drive.  

->If you think lifts are scary, you should do a study of highway bridges.

The King Pine chair was installed around 1987, along with the Whiffletree Quad, which was relocated/renamed Timberline somewhere around 1997. KP suffered a driveline shear, causing the rollback. The TL gearbox was then examined, at which point I think they identified cracking in the same location. 

Both drives were then replaced.  I could be mistaken, but don't believe that kind of structural failure will show up as anything distinct in an oil analysis.

Given the location of the failure point, the service brakes had no means of  holding the system in place, and the lock ratchets didn't drop because the  cable never actually came to a stop prior to changing direction.

Further, KP did not 'careen' backward. It moved at a steady rate until the lifties could fully apply the emergency braking system.

 

None of which relieves those affected of their injuries. But if one is going to speak on the topic of lift safety, one should try to avoid needless speculation and flights of fancy.

 @Dingbat, if I got anything wrong in the previous, by all means offer correction. 

12 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Sugarloaf's premier lift, the SuperQuad, is 25 years old.  It's running like a top, as far as we know. 

I typically suggested to guests, that if they thought they might be needing a restroom, they should avoid taking 'just one more run' off the SQ.

You probably noticed, but SQ ran much faster for the first two seasons of operation than it does now.  If memory serves, they were going through sheave bearings like Tic-Tacs, and slowed the drive to extend service intervals.  As the first of it's kind, it was under-designed and 'overloaded'.

Rumor has it the layout called for one more tower, but someone balked at the cost.

 

[JRAZZ]

Not that I'm advocating poor lift maintenance but it strikes me odd that we're so concerned with lift safety when actually skiing is much more dangerous.

How many people die/injured on ski lifts per year vs how many die/injured on the slopes.... 

[skategoat]

1 hour ago, erazz said:

Not that I'm advocating poor lift maintenance but it strikes me odd that we're so concerned with lift safety when actually skiing is much more dangerous.

How many people die/injured on ski lifts per year vs how many die/injured on the slopes.... 

We accept the danger of skiing or snowboarding. I willingly engage in it knowing full well that I could be injured or killed. 

When I ride a ski lift, I don't sign off on it possibly falling out of the sky.