Burton Step On System - I'm Gonna Do It!

[barryj]

I have not seen them in real life yet.....just lots of   youtube reviews and the Burton shop at Northstar says they are gonna carry the full line of  Step -On Photon boots and of course Step On binding.  Here's one of the better reviews imo, even with the English sub titles ...and he's riding last years version of my board!, Moss PQ60     

Seems like the perfect setup for to my situation.  I'm up at Squaw most every afternoon M-F with students riding my Moss PQ60 in Deluxe 325's on TDs SW SI's - it's been a perfect slush, groom and pow setup!....but school rules say I can't drive students in a school van to the Mtn. in my hardboots, so it's a rush to switch into them in the parking lot  then walk through the parking lot and then through the village to get to the Funitel    before buckling up....... not a problem, but 5 days a week walking through the parking lot and the village is wearing down my heels and it's cumbersome and sketchy depending on the  conditions and how rushed I am......have not fallen yet,  but it's been really close a couple of times each season!

Switching to Burton Step-Ons will be so much more convenient.......just put them on before I head out to the van...and leave them on, walk normally.....and hopefully the Step - On will be just as responsive on the Moss!  We will see.....

No, I'm not going To The Darkside,  I'll keep my TD3 SW Si's for laying down the carves on the weekend on my Swoard boards!

 Anybody Else Gonna Switch One Of Their Boards Over To Burton Step-Ons??   

[BlueB]

Don't you like pretty high angles, normally to high even for hard boots on a given board? Softies don't work very well for that setup... 

I'd look for a nice pair of AT boots to walk around parking and then riding, but still drive in normal shoes. I personally wouldn't drive the car in softboots either, except maybe move it from one parking spot to another. 

[Beckmann AG]

I might have misread something in the intended sequence of events, but will point out that driving while wearing snowboard boots is a tough position to defend in the event of an accident.

Regardless of whether or not you're the driver at fault.

Especially if you're charged with the safety of children.

[breeseomatic]

The Burton Step-ons seem neat, but more cumbersome than Flow NXT bindings.  What happens when your Burton binding breaks and you still want to board?  At least with more universal set-ups you can figure something out by renting bindings and keeping your boots.  Double thumbs down on Burton proprietary technology.  Double thumbs down in driving kids to the mountain in clunky boots.  Use a proper/appropriate driving shoe.

[barryj]

Hey Guys..........................................

Egh!....I tried the Flow NXT's  last year with Burton Driver X's .....the boots were great on and off the Mtn. but I thought the Flow bindings were difficult to operate with reaching that heel lever to lock the boot in or out....and I just couldn't get used to the  response/feel?...or lack of feel of the bindings.

We will see if the Burton Step-On's are any different ............ stay tuned! 

As for driving in softboots,  I asked and the CHP  (nor my school) makes any differentiation as to driving in softboots.......it's just a Boot  in their opinion.  fwiw - On a pow day and on personal time I drive a stick in my Deluxe Track 700's no problem! ......but I live less than a mile form the lift!    So driving in softboots is an experience in comfort and convenience.  

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Equipment lockers aren't available at the hill?? Wear shoes, carry boots. Use Drill Instructor Tactics to keep the kids within reach until YOU'RE Ready to ride? Yeah, and Don't drive in a clunky boot, especially if You are the Bus driver.

 

[Beckmann AG]

13 hours ago, barryj said:

As for driving in softboots,  I asked and the CHP  (nor my school) makes any differentiation as to driving in softboots.......it's just a Boot  in their opinion.  fwiw - On a pow day and on personal time I drive a stick in my Deluxe Track 700's no problem! ......but I live less than a mile form the lift!    So driving in softboots is an experience in comfort and convenience.  

As if CHP is the last word on smart.  Did you speak with this guy?  

'They' say it was a broken steering column, but Many People don't know that Senna died wearing sandals. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Beckmann AG

[Aracan]

Intriguing:

Quote

I asked and the CHP  (nor my school) makes any differentiation as to driving in softboots.......it's just a Boot  in their opinion.

And a hardboot is not "just a boot"? FWIW, I would rather ask the insurance people. I know that here in Austria your liability insurance can (and will) bail out if you cause an accident driving in  loose-heel footwear (such as flip-flops), and I would count on them to wiggle out as well if you wear dedicated snowboard boots, be they hardshell or not.

[lowrider]

I see as new marketing opportunity " Insurance co. approved driving shoes". Apply now for reduced rates ! 

[John Gilmour]

Burton misses the mark yet again.

 

sigh.

 

back the year prior to the Nagano games I was up at Killington. 

That's the weekend I hit the mogul field at 50mph on superstar and destroyed my knees  and did nerve damage to my legs.  And 72 hours later in softboots I got hit by a skier and broke his arm and nose. What a week.  It's also the week I started sleeping with....

Tina, (some insane, tiny Korean,  super athletic,  drunk driving  in snow lunatic, sex obsessed psycho hothead,  who used to date my hairdresser Roberto) who  was part of a ski house in Killington with this unremarkable I guy , who was designing the first soft boot  (disaster) step in model .  

 

 After the hard boot step in,  which was also a disaster. 

I just worry about points of failure and a lack of  redundancy in those design   - pretty much if your heel releases after shock on a chatter turn... that foot will twist right out.

 

and they still have all that bulging crap on the heel...to cause completely  unnecessary  "heelside binding out" instead of a "toe side boot out" .

 

I don't know why it's so hard for people to design things.  I don't know why it's so hard for people to design things? Is it a question or statement? 

 

I mean, it's one thing to try to get things right the first time, which is difficult – but I've done it a lot. And it's a whole Nother thing – totally not learn from your previous mistakes like some sort of an idiot.

 

 

look at the shape of our foot. Just fucking look, or actually, don't look at it , reach down and feel the foot with your eyes closed. Why is it that shape? Any fucking clue? 

 

 It didn't just end up that way for no reason. Feet are shaped in a certain way to benefit the organism using them. That's why horses have hooves, it's why Turtles feet are shaped the way they are,. It's also why our feet are shaped exactly NOT  like an orangutan's.

 

.  The foot shape is designed by nature to help the body move to do the things it needs to do. If you inhibit or radically change the way that foot is designed to move – you're going to radically change everything in the upper body and frankly entire body systems of movement.

thats why , for instance , I never liked 2 point heel locking systems . Like the bomber system and many others. They locked the heel at the outermost areas.

 

now look at your barefoot. The heel. 

 

See how it is nicely rounded?  Does anyone think that's  a fucking accident?  The size of the degrees of arc angle  has to do with needs to pivot .

 

if you remove the ability to pivot you are removing balance. 

 

Don't believe me?  Ok go to REI put on an old pair of hiking boots. Now climb that stone simulated thing on those. Now  go get those Fugly toe shoes. Climb the same thing . After doing that you can see climbing in conventional boots is like climbing Everest in strippers platform shoes.

 

 

 

 

Now look at the forefoot.  The forefoot when used with softbindings has to be somewhat reduced in its mobilization (but not eliminated) . I tend to pin the big toe flat betweenthe first and second knuckle. And pin the pinky toe behind the third knuckle or there is too much freedom of movement. 

 

The burton ankle  strap..., if there is one f'ing t hing that should be GONE when going to a soft boot step in ...its the ankle strap, the ankle strap is what causes pain.  It's what unnaturally SEPARATES the bones and tendons,  all that shit should be managed with an internal boa that is targeted not just as "regular zig zag laces"  but laces that attach at points engineered to help your foot snowboard , not just  immobilize it at "regular" (which really are totally "irregular" to the shape of our foot and how it moves)  intervals.

Aagain...as with most of these action sports, the PHYSICAL BOARD SPORT  skills of the engineer matter , AND OF COURSE THE ENGINEERING LOGIC and skill set matters too.

 

at this point in snowboarding ... probably all boots should be soft boots (too expensive to do injection molds for everything. And those soft boots should have the capability and internal endo skeletons  to ride BETTER than our current CRAP HARDBOOTS which have not progressed much since the 1970s in terms of allowing a foot to move better than in a cast. 

We have so much CAD  and 3 printing, and visual scanning aids, and yet... we get sold crap. 

There was a time when in WWII they didn't ahve enough material to cover both the top and bottom of her wings. So they covered the bottom. And the planes flew, like shit. They flew better when they covered the top of the wings instead of the bottom when given the choice. 

Well fucking donkey dick  stupid snowboard boot manufacturers , I got news for you!  

 

The top of the foot  is just as important as the bottom with all your fancy fitted insoles. Actually, believe  it or not , the top is almost more important! 

 

Yet younever see anyone fit , or mold the top of foot. They fucking mold the boots with pressure on the bottom of the foot but never the top? Is everyone taking crazy pills? What's wrong with people's minds? 

 

Wheres the fucking pain in softboots. Is it on the bottom of your foot? Nope, when I take my foot out of my boots it's not the bottom of my feet that breathe a sigh of relief. 

No Burton, it's on the fucking top of your foot, it's in your toes, your arch, the sides of your foot.....

 

why do people run with the wrong fucking paradigm for so long? 

 

It's like front loaded flex (that I DEMANDED when I wanted to make a better Madd board) , I reasoned that if you threw your weight forward to start every turn, why would you make the nose soft unless you were an idiot.  Why would you want a twisty mid section of a board if that's the section that needs to ride in the cleanest arc? Why would you want to  ride the tail of an alpine board on an icy steep narrow trail? Why are people such idiots? 

 

who knows someone at Burton so I can design this shit right once and for all?  Last time I went in for a softboot developer job they laughed me out of there because they thought I was too old, and that was in 1991. I still ride better now every year. And now I'll have to work with dipshit spoiled brats. 

 

Oh wait, my Puerto Rican hairdresser Roberto knows Jake who gives him his gold pass. I'm the idiot... see how this all comes full circle? 

 

 

dialing.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by John Gilmour

[BlueB]

1 hour ago, John Gilmour said:

at this point in snowboarding ... probably all boots should be soft boots (too expensive to do injection molds for everything. And those soft boots should have the capability and internal endo skeletons.... 

There was a time when in WWII they didn't ahve enough material to cover both the top and bottom of her wings. So they covered the bottom. And the planes flew, like shit. They flew better when they covered the top of the wings instead of the bottom when given the choice. 

Blasphemy, blasphemy, burn the heretic! ;) 

I think it's exactly the oposite... At this point of technology, all the boots should be hard material. With all the tools you mentioned and 3d printers, development of injection molds is way easier. Probably in a short while we won't even need the injection molds but just the printers, for lower volumes. 

The endoskeleton would still need to be injection molded, or somehow formed, right? Then it needs to be covered and incorporated into the soft shell. So, while doing the molding, you might just as well do the entire thing, skip the unnecessary step (soft part) and have usual durability and waterproofness of hard shell. Also, with the hard shell you often see when the plastic or screws/rivetts are starting to fail, but not when covered by material. 

The AT boots are making great progress with walkability and weight. It's probably where snowboard industry needs to look for inspiration, further improving adjustability of angles and flex(es), sole length and possibly new binding systems/interfaces. 

 

As for the planes, they can not fly with only the bottom of the wing covered. The WW2 engineers were well aware of that, hell, Wright bros already knew that... 

[John Gilmour]

It's not so much that soft boots are better. It's that the molds for hard boots are too expensive to amortize. So we get few models.

 

Ahem ..either way the ideal carving snowboard boot it doesn't matter if the material on the outside is plastic or synthetic leather, all that matters if it works better. Really so long as the boot flex is consistent it doesn't matter if it is hard plastic or leather. It's the flex and stiffness that matter, and the issue of "progressive flex" to handle forces progressively as they build and manage them effectively.

 

soft boots as they stand now will not outperform hardboots for carving, but it's quite possible to design a soft boot with better progressive flex characteristics than a hardboot where the material is mostly of uniform thickness. The soft boot material can be layered.

relqistically what we have in hardboot models since say 1983 have been Koflach Valluga lite, Koflach Albona, variants of e rossignol boot, raichles and their variants , northwave, Nordica T9-9 SBH Varients, UPZ ETC... probably less than 25 mold series all told.  BUT we have had THOUSANDS of softboots.

 

if you were to take the design hours of 20 softboot models and try to make high performance hardboots, you might beat a current top quality  hardboot.

have someone go out on the boots blindfolded on the snow, and he might not be able to even tell if you were in a hard boot or soft boot.

I'm pretty much looked at universally as some sort of hated traitor. When I used to ride hardboots iexclusively or almost exclusively from the 1980s through the 1990s, Skiers would at first embrace me at the bar thinking I was a skier (cursing the snowboarders) , only to shun me when I left the bar and got on my snowboard.

 And the same thing, to some degree happens when I'm seen from the lift carving , and then later a hardboot carver seesthat I'm in soft boots, or even other soft booters go out to ride with me and they see an angled stance.

I'm certainly no athlete.  I hate walking up even three flights of stairs. I don't run, and I probably skateboard about 10 times a year. But put me on a snowboard, and everything starts to flow.  So there's not has to be something right about my gear and technique for it to work, i'm certainly not Muscling  my way through it. And it has major flaws as my binder my angles are really too high for softboot bindings and the flex patterns of the softboots.

 As for the airplanes I'm just pointing that out, and I'm not against it all what you just said (hardboots ultimately being best)  I'm just talking about the practicality of the next step. When prototyping do you want to work with materials that are inexpensive, where people are familiar with working with those materials. 

 

In the ideal world, you do a bunch of simple exercises in front of a Nintendo Wii, do a few strength tests, a few balance tests, and from there you would get a boot prescription.

your foot would be scanned, in  several different flexing positions.  From there a special customized  boot with the correct limiters would be designed on a computer. You would literally print the entire thing, even the liner would be printed and then switched over to a harder material ( in a single composite blended layer) with the harder material woven into the softer material progressively.  You would probably have a hard outer shell that would be completely waterproof but with a thin layer of ventilation built inside the plastic that would vent out inside your pants leg – to remove moisture. 

This could result in a boot weighing marginally  about the same as a pair of hiking boots, yet with the stiffness needed of a full-blown racing boot. Like the current AT boots but - those don't have good progressive flex as designed for AT use. It's a bit tricky with their materials . And you want to avoid a layered leaf spring type approach to flex with those materials.

 

 And of course it would be a 3-D scanned model, you wouldn't just print the bottom of the boot you print the top of your foot  and sides imprint as well .   Most likely there would be a separate upper and lower boot that connect with stiffening bars that snap in which could be removed and fine tuned for  ability level.  In this way you could dump the top part of the boot after snowboarding and just walk around with a lightweight lower insulated shoe with an integrated gaiter.

once you're able to determine the optimal Flex profiles using soft bootmaterials, then you can make the whole boot a lot lighter by going to the hard boot plastic materials we are familiar with. 

The good thing about hard boot materials and the lack of models is that once you get something that works people tend to stick with it. With soft boots once you find something that works, it's likely that that boot will be changed or discontinued for the following year. So while it's possible to get a much better fitting boot as a soft boot, you can't depend on future production. You can't depend on future production 

Which is why I bought 9 pairs of Burton Andy Warhol boots. And why I am constantly looking for the next model to,stock up on. 

Frankly hard or soft boots- they both kill my feet in different ways because my foot is softer than the boot material so my foot conforms uncomfortably given the pressures that I exert within the boot at speed and G forces.

the only manufacture with enough firepower and distribution and cost to make a superior integrat d binding boot system like this...is Burton. They just need a design lead like myself . And they would hate me in their corporate culture because I bluntly force people to do what I want. I hate when someone asks me to "compromise and blend" their shitty idea with mine so they can have a "piece of the design credit"., when it only makes my design less effective, less performance, and less versatile, less comfortable, and less safe. I like to find the design optimum point for materials and production process.

But after I leave, people are left with a design that works cutting edge  for at least the next 20-30 years. Until new material science and production processes allow for advancement.  I don't always get what I want, I never got to use the sintered metal  high pressur bonded carbon fiber inserts for Madd boards I never got to use the lip I wanted for the Avalon Wheel, but still these products work at the top for their designated purpose.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by John Gilmour

[Corey]

John, interesting ideas but you're forgetting the economies of scale.  How many more softboots are sold in a year compared to hardboots?  No one is willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on R&D to sell tens of thousands of dollars of products.  Plus people can use a pair of hardboots for a LONG time, whereas softboots have a fairly short life before they break down.  

If you ever wonder why something doesn't happen, just follow the money.  If there's money to be had and no one else is there, then start it yourself and reap the benefits.  

The Tina story was random...  I had a dog named Hannah.  She was a gentle giant St. Bernard.  I tried to ride her like a horse when I was 5, but she bucked me off.  I think she felt bad when I had skinned knees after that and sat with me with an extra sad look in her eyes.  

[John E]

The Burton website doesn't give any details but their new design looks very similar to an Intech (Fintech) mechanism. The binding looks like a static interface and the mechanism appears to be within the boot. 

[philw]

18 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

...  If you ever wonder why something doesn't happen, just follow the money.  If there's money to be had and no one else is there, then start it yourself and reap the benefits.  ...

Precisely. I'd say that Burton has understood the market very well, and that's why they've been successful.

Burton is unlikely to be a major change instigator as they've nothing to gain from change. 

The Dynafit Tech binding story is quite close to this and was made to happen by one guy working in his family home.

Ranting doesn't really work - the proof is in the pudding. Make some.

Edited October 3, 2017 by philw

[nils]

On 02/10/2017 at 12:07 AM, John Gilmour said:

It's not so much that soft boots are better. It's that the molds for hard boots are too expensive to amortize

On 02/10/2017 at 12:07 AM, John Gilmour said:

 

 

 

When working on the northwave rebirth project in around 2005, i punched some numbers that made us abandon the idea pretty quick..

1 size mold: circa 80.000 euros ( 100.000 USD)

x 3-4 sizes needed: 320.000 euros

dev costs / prototyping: 100.000 euros

marketing / resellers network: 80.000 euros

= around 500.000 euros needed to make things serious...maybe more and that does not include salaries, offices, expenses, taxes..

so am glad some courageous team took the effort to do it (Mountainslope)..Maybe they got those numbers lower.....let's say they make 300€ per pair...it means they will have to sell 1000+ pair each year minimum to get benefit in 2-3 years...

It means there is very small chances we see new molds or new dev coming, because there is no room for two Mountainslope.

FIS and competitors will stick to the .951, few will stay with UPZ and Raichle, and the rest of us will follow...we are however too few to have another sensed mind inject half a million euros in a new boot with the sales number that will be left after mountainslope secures part of the market..

The revolution could come from a softboot design that will provide enough stiffness to be comparable to what we need in freecarving on hardboots with a stepin system maybe?

For now am just hoping Mountainslope injects a softer version aka .901 for us to replace the .900 for freecarving!

 

Nils

 

[softbootsurfer]

 SB bindings...simply lock the High Back and add a top strap of leather...contrary to popular belief, there is forward flex, as the High Back material and leather strap provides...

Stepping in would be convenient, so provide for the boot to slide into a Skeletal Shoe so to speak, that would provide forward flex support above the Ankle, that is missing from every SB binding out there...flow is close, but still lacking in my opinion...this would provide SB comfort and Carvability...

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

John G.  I enjoy hearing your version of things in general.    Please go back and remove the "F" word in your posts so we don't have to delete it.   Not ok. 

 

[philw]

Quote

... The AT boots are making great progress with walkability and weight. It's probably where snowboard industry needs to look for inspiration, further improving adjustability of angles and flex(es), sole length and possibly new binding systems/interfaces.  ...

Aye. Looking at (say) the Dalbello Lupo Ax... those do seem to have the characteristics which could work for Alpine snowboarding. Has anyone experimented with that, and if so, what are the issues?

I'm thinking that ski boots worked pretty well in the late 1980s, as apparently did Koflach plastic mountain boots. Perhaps it's time to experiment with some of the newer AT boots, which seem to be like they may by chance work for Alpine snowboarding...

[boarderboy]

Have ridden AT's for 15+ years.  By BOL standards, I'll never be an even intermediate carver.  However, I'm nearly 70, and for my mellow, have-fun style, the easy walking Scarpas are a Godsend.

BB   

Edited October 8, 2017 by boarderboy

[drschwartz]

Wow, lots of opinions. Not a lot of substance in this thread so far.

These boot/bindings look good enough to give it a try anyway. Ordered mine on Oct 5th. They  sold out the same day (in Apple fashion) so Burton is doing something right in terms of marketing.

I can let you know about boot feel and binding mechanism when I get them. Will have to wait until December to see how they work on the hill.

Doc

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

2 hours ago, boarderboy said:

Have ridden AT's for 15+ years.  By BOL standards, I'll never be an even intermediate carver.  However, I'm nearly 70, and for my mellow, have-fun style, the easy walking Scarpas are a Godsend.

BB   

Frankly, use what works for YOU!!!   At nearly 70 , you are my Hero.  Just turned 60 and hope to make it to where you are headed!!!!  Well done BB!! Kudos Sir!!

 

[drschwartz]

Yep, 70 is cool...having just joined the 60+ club myself??

[barryj]

Hey Dr. S,

Thanks for bringing us back to our regularly scheduled program!....and glad to see I'm not the only one who (pre)ordered the Step-On system!.....and with living at Squaw I should be on the Mtn. with them after they arrive in Nov.!.............and yep, I'm in the 60+ club, well  I guess maybe 60- club as I just turned 61!

Well at least I get  a unrestricted season pass at Boreal Mtn. resort on top of Donner Summit for only $129 for making it to 60!