Corey Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 At one of the local hills I primarily ride under the chairlift (steepest/widest run), so I get to analyze my tracks on the ride up. Over the years, I've noticed that my heel turn starts with a larger radius and decreases towards the end. My toe turn starts with a tight radius and gradually increases as I go through the turn. The heel to toe transition occurs close to 90-degrees to the fall line on the steeper portion. The toe to heel transition occurs at 60-70 degrees to the fall line. I'd say I'm generally going faster at the end of the toe turn than the heel turn. Said another way; I check my speed more at the end of the heelside turn and tend to flow out of toesides faster. I'm comfortable extending the toe turn more up the hill on steeper stuff, but I end up pivoting a little to get the board going downhill at the start of the heel turn. I think it's a lack of comfort in that transition that leads to this, but I wonder if it's just hard to control pressure as precisely in the start of the heel turn. I've made considerable effort to load the nose/board up more at the start of the heelside turn and less at the end, but I'm still struggling to make things truly symmetric. I find it easier to distribute pressure throughout the toeside turn with flexion/extension than on the heelside. The difference is subtle enough that I don't think anyone else would notice without me pointing it out, but I want to make my heelside more like my toeside. Thoughts/tips on things to focus on? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Corey this should create a good discussion :). It would be awesome to get some video to see what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) I have this problem (or a similar one?) as well. I can produce somewhat tighter, more violent turns with my heelside. When I'm on my a-game I can come close to matching them on my toeside but often my toesides tend to be more drawn out. At least it feels that way. I notice it mostly in tight spots: If I'm approaching the trail edge and will be turning downhill into a heelside: no worries ... but if I'm on the toeside I might get a little nervous. I've noticed this is somewhat less of a problem on my narrower board, probably due to higher angles making the toe/heel asymmetry less of an issue I imagine. I feel like it takes me a lot longer to get the edge engaged on toesides, whereas on heelsides it is near-instantaneous. I think part of my problem is that I tend to stand up and relax a bit too much between turns. Edited January 23, 2017 by queequeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Isn't this phenomena due to the non-symmetry of the human anatomy when hardboot snowboarding? It's easy to counterbalance by bending forward (heelside) but very hard to counterbalance on the toeside... we just don't bend that way very well which leads to changes in our center of balance and the curve of our turns. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 38 minutes ago, GeoffV said: It would be awesome to get some video to see what you are doing. I have no friends. :( Well, none that ride/ski with me. ;) I'm the first (and third) rider in Ryan's ATC video: This is pretty mellow carving. My mentality is: "I'm riding for 5 more days this week, pace yourself." Here's a link to a video from 2013 of me on a Coiler Angry on a mild slope: http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/36947-angrry-160-first-ride/#comment-415615 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, lonbordin said: Isn't this phenomena due to the non-symmetry of the human anatomy when hardboot snowboarding? It's easy to counterbalance by bending forward (heelside) but very hard to counterbalance on the toeside... we just don't bend that way very well which leads to changes in our center of balance and the curve of our turns. Yeah, I've wondered exactly that. But maybe someone has a tip/trick to compensate. I struggle in rapid cross-under/push-pull turns to push the board into the snow with the same force/speed at the start of a heelside turn as I do on a toeside. It feels like I don't have any muscles pushing that way in that position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I agree that, due to the very nature of the asymmetric technique of riding hardboots, heelside and toeside turns are just going to be different from one another. However, if you truly want to make the lines in the corduroy the same I have an idea for an exercise you could use. Force yourself to transition from one edge to the other at the same given angle to the fall line for both heel to toe and toe to heel. Try to do this for an entire run. Analyze from the lift and repeat while making the proper adjustments. Keep doing it until you are spent for that day and then come back to it the next day and repeat again. Eventually, you are going to retrain the muscle memory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Playing the edge as if plucking a guitar string...vibrational timing sequence symmetry is timing with equal pressure to the nose...or equal braking pressures and times... Learned that doing Figure 8 ski runs... Edited January 23, 2017 by softbootsurfer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 4 hours ago, lonbordin said: Isn't this phenomena due to the non-symmetry of the human anatomy when hardboot snowboarding? It's easy to counterbalance by bending forward (heelside) but very hard to counterbalance on the toeside... we just don't bend that way very well which leads to changes in our center of balance and the curve of our turns. I think the above will always keep your turns asymmetrical. That and the fact that your ankles are more useful on toeside that they are on heelside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, Jim Callen said: Wow, what a nerd. Just go ride, man.... (c: Haha! Confirmed. Plus our chairlifts are slow, giving me lots of time to think. Neat drill idea, workshop7. A PM suggested watching my hands in the above videos. They start back and swing forward on heelsides, and start forward and swing back on toesides. Whoa. Note that my goal is not to make perfect tracks, but rather I'm using the tracks as an indicator. Seeing them started the thought process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger jr Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Your asymmetricality is what makes you so endearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Having ridden boards that were Sym/asym since the early 90's, I can vouch that the mechanics of the body do change it's control of the arc ridden. It's simple; Center of Mass is not only more Compact on heelsides, but more structurally powerful; but with less reflexive response, and a few fewer 'quick-twitch' muscles to employ. So, on my old '94 Gordo, I reversed my stance; I ride toes over the intended heelside (minus highbacks) edge, which is 7.2M, and ride my heels over the longer (former toeside edge) of 8.9/9m, and it all works just great. I'm sure Scott Gordon never thought of his boards as hardboot carving stuff, but my Gordo's have Performed over 22 years, and done very well indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Would this help? https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=dK_H_PXYpag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Two things come to mind. With either cateck or F2 (but not bomber) bindings you could cant the front foot out a little bit, that would take a bit of sharpness away from your rear edge and add a little sharpness to your front edge, fine tuning. (Bombers would take away lift to add cant or remove cant to add lift) Speaking for myself, I tend to get off my front edge as soon as my peripheral vision is comfortable, while on my rear edge I tend to stay on the edge longer, until my peripheral vision is content with what it senses, err, I'm more comfortable starting a rear edge turn sooner than a front edge turn because of my sense of vision. Of course I look up hill frequently, but still am weary of straightliners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, ursle said: With either cateck or F2 (but not bomber) bindings you could cant the front foot out a little bit You *can* cant the front foot out on bombers. You just rotate the baseplate, reorienting the the lift to be off-axis with the board. Easy and more repeatable this way than with the Cateks. Just means you have to remember the offset whenever you change your angles but no big deal. You won't be losing any lift, you're just pointing it in a different direction. Yes, you won't have the ridiculous amount of fidgety control that one has with Cateks, but It doesn't really matter unless your boots are concrete blocks. I think I do the same thing with my peripheral vision on the toeside. I think I take a peek right before I start the heelside because I am blind for most of it and looking uphill at the end tends to delay getting into the toeside edge after it is complete. Edited January 24, 2017 by queequeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Yes, as you cant, you lose your lift, so a degree and a half of cant is taking away a degree and a half from the lift. Vs adding another shim to the F2 or simply adjusting the cateck. Anyway, fine tuning the carve, one degree at a time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I do have outward cant on both bindings, but not much. However, I can achieve the same radius in either turn but that tight radius is at different points in the turn for the two different directions. I doubt that has much to do with cant settings. Note that it's not quite like you suggest for TD3s - adding 1 degree of cant doesn't remove 1 degree of lift. Look for the TD2 Tweakomatic calculator if interested. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 howdy corey_dyck timing, equal angulation, riding the sidecut and be over your board... don't blame your gear. carving is a dance, its all body motion... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 hours ago, west carven said: ... carving is a dance, its all body motion... I'm sure you can make it a symmetrical dance with effort. I think I'll pass on that one though: to me snowboarding is fundamentally asymmetrical, and I'd expect my turns to reflect that. To fight it would be more figure skating. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not what I'm about. Turn up the music, just feel the turns, would be my approach. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 howdy philw my comment was to cory... I don't care what you do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Thanks Phil for bringing up Ice Skating, it is done on a flat surface...so to do a quad spin you need to do something...the Track is made only by the Edge...If you are Not Dancing now, you will be with enough Miles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 hours ago, west carven said: howdy philw my comment was to cory... I don't care what you do... It's an internet thing: my tone was not at all negative, I do think it is a dance, just that symmetrical dances are perhaps an ambition too far if the dancer is not in fact symmetrical. There is a private messaging system: if you post here, friendly comments are within the terms of use I think. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I think of my turns as one leading into the next. If I don't set myself up at the end of a toeside I can screw myself on the following heelside. Fwiw I ride short boards. When I am really getting after it, I find myself aggressively pulling my front foot up and over to my heelside while my frontside edge is still engaged but just beginning to come out of the apex of the turn. My toeside hand and shoulder begin leading to push my weight down over my edge, hip goes down to set the heelside turn and away we go. I try to keep this all as fluid and smooth as possible. If I'm riding the side cut out to the end of the turn I let the energy of the board pop me out and into the next turn. Kind of like finding that sweet spot of rebound on a trampoline or diving board. It seems that my transitions dictate the following turn a lot. Don't know if this helps, I'm a terrible teacher of snowboarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 53 minutes ago, Erik J said: If I'm riding the side cut out to the end of the turn I let the energy of the board pop me out and into the next turn. Kind of like finding that sweet spot of rebound on a trampoline or diving board. And this is exactly why we have nicknamed Erik "boing" = "representing the noise of a compressed spring suddenly released" It is a lot of fun to ride behind Erik and watch him use the energy out of the board at the end of his turn to transition in the air from one edge to the next. :o) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) a Fun Symmetrical notion...is to lay a track and then another one next to it shoulder width, so as to fake the skiers out... first two from the other day...do three and their eyes cross Edited January 26, 2017 by softbootsurfer 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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