board choice for steeper slopes?

[1xsculler]

When carving on steeper slopes and you don't want to get going too fast would you chose a shorter board and/or a board with a smaller side-cut radius?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Yes,  those typically coincide.   Getting lower in your position helps too.

[gdboytyler]

Steep, groomed and wide:  I'd go with an EC style board and EC it from top to bottom.  My EC board is a Coiler Schtubby 171 with a 13m side cut.

 

As mentioned in other threads, EC is not necessary for steeps, but it makes the steeps easier because you're scrubbing speed with body parts.  With less speed, you need less energy to hold your carve, so it's less tiring. 

 

If it's steep and narrow or the grooming is not so good, then a slalom board is easier.

[SkoonyMcGroomer]

Having a board with single radius sidecut and less taper, like the Donek Proteus, also assists to complete a more C-shaped turn, reducing speed by pointing one back up the slope.  The more taper that the board has, the more it will want to turn down the slope and run fast.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

While going shorter, and usually having a tighter sidecut are good benchmarks to go by for a steeper-trail board choice, don't forget to think of flex, and, width.

A shorter-than-what-you're-on slalom board might turn quicker, and even take a tighter arc, but, being a Slalom board, may just turn that arc with a cleaner, faster exit speed! So, a board that BENDS enough is really what you want (But, not if you lay-down on every turn! Hence, I find some EC board awkward to ride.). Edge security is a good thing, but not if it causes you to accelerate too much.

Width, while usually considered the obstacle to quick turn initiation, isn't as much of a factor in one's timing as some would have you think. It's far more important that you have the angle-of-stance that's comfortable for you. Everyone's feet are different in length, legs are different in effective stance, and people just Move differently..  (Warren Witherall, ski-fitting-Guru and I had a great conversation once on 'stance' on a snowboard; He concluded it this way- "I wouldn't want to You, trying to tweak a student's stance to fit them. There's just too many variables!) But a board that's the right width can do wonders, as it can eliminate boot/binding drag at high edge-angles, and yet still deliver good edge response. It also can let you 'fluff' the edge as you need to to get around the corner in time.

So, pay attention to the board's sidecut, then flex [torsional flex as well!], and then length, keeping within the more fixed parameter of the board's width, in regards to your preferred stance angles and given foot size.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Beckmann AG]

Would that it were that simple.

A shorter board might well be too responsive, unstable, and thus less effective than a longer board.

Much of it has to do with how well you can use the board as an energy storage and retrieval device.

Also, the area in which you can get 'the job' done.

And these are somewhat dependent on skill, and the default means by which you move the board from one edge to the other while under stress.

 

 

PSR:

Witherell had an incomplete understanding of the variables used to affect performance on skis.

If it were otherwise, he would have reveled in the possibilities.

No wonder he shied away from snowboard tweaking.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[lowrider]

Double your underwear and do more turns. Once you scare yourself by going faster than you are comfortable you learn not to do it the next time. Different equipment isn't always the solution. 

[Corey]

I don't like smaller sidecut on steeps unless it's very narrow. You have lots of energy to bend boards into tight arcs on steeps - short sidecuts demand a lot of attention and careful balancing of that energy.

That said, if you're just starting on steeps I'd suggest something short until you can force the board into a tight turn when you want.

I love my 14+ meter sidecut boards as long as it's 3 groomer passes* wide (trees to trees) at least. Narrower than that and the shorter boards let you make tighter turns.

* I assume all groomers are about the same width, but I don't know.

[AcousticBoarder]

You could just do what all the cool kids do and straight line it...

Having a board with single radius sidecut and less taper, like the Donek Proteus, also assists to complete a more C-shaped turn, reducing speed by pointing one back up the slope. The more taper that the board has, the more it will want to turn down the slope and run fast.

Being able to make controlled C shaped carves that go back up the slope will help to slow you down a lot, ec style or not. (and a board that doesn't spring you out of them) Thanks for posting about the taper, that never clicked for me before. Explains why I have difficulty making some of my boards do this.

[CMC]

Donek MK

[bigwavedave]

Having a board with single radius sidecut and less taper... ...The more taper that the board has, the more it will want to turn down the slope and run fast.

A board can have a single sidecut radius and still have taper. They're not necessarily linked. Just sayin', as I thought that was true too, until I got a single radius REV with 2cm of taper.

[piusthedrcarve]

Donek MK

 

What's the apprx. taper for the MK?  

 

Modern race SL decks usually have 20-30 mm taper that favor fall line. I ride SG 163.  In my opinion, a deck has softer flex, less taper, and with tight sidecut would be easier to ride on steeps.  So, should I go with a deck with prefers c-turns instead? or learn how to ride on whatever deck I got?  I vote for later.  Regardless, I will get a MK. ;) 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Or you could just get a board with a long sidecut and some taper and charge that mother.

[Corey]

Or you could just get a board with a long sidecut and some taper and charge that mother.

 

Amen!  One of the best parts of snowboarding for me!  Tip it, bend it, ride the arc, snow comes up and gets in your way on the last half of the turn.  Repeat.  

 

I think, in general, we all should buy a Donek MK.  ;)  But I won't take it to the steeps unless they're narrow.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

Amen!  One of the best parts of snowboarding for me!  Tip it, bend it, ride the arc, snow comes up and gets in your way on the last half of the turn.  Repeat.  

 

That's not the style I was advocating.  I was talking more about the way I like to ride when I'm not trying to turn like you and Steve.

[digger jr]

That's not the style I was advocating.  I was talking more about the way I like to ride when I'm not trying to turn like you and Steve.

Yea you guys turn way too tight...Aaa:)

[GeoffV]

Carving steep trails is what I love most about carving....

Yes I am a steep trail adrenaline junky :-)

I'd agree with Corey on board choice for steep slopes, but of course riding in New England will depend on conditions and width of trail. If it is boiler plate I'll be riding the Donek MK hands down. If it is delicious carving I'll go with my Coiler 171 14m Schtubby. What I want to point out is I have never been able to take a 185 down a super steep trail in New England, but then again I'l ride my 185 all day long at Ajax's Aztec trail. 

 

Once you learn how to carve on steeps it is absolutely addicting. Getting upside down on an uber steep trail and then pulling the board around you while pulling some serious G's is such an adrenaline rush. You will never learn how to carve the steeps until you commit to diving down hill.

 

Pic is take by Jack Michaud

Location: Sugarloaf

Trail: Gondi Line - double black diamond

You pic up so much speed dropping into Gondi line that I have to complete compress to control my speed. With a 14m I am taking up 80% of the trail.

[General Tsao]

Corey/Geoff,  Sorry for the noob question but can you guys elaborate on the Donek MK?   Thanks in advance.

[GeoffV]

General Tsao here is a link to the thread on the Donek MK

The board is not available yet to order but I think it may be ready for the 2016/2017 season

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/41340-madd-killer-strikes-back/page-7?hl=maddkiller#entry437991

[b0ardski]

When carving on steeper slopes and you don't want to get going too fast would you chose a shorter board and/or a board with a smaller side-cut radius?

yes

 

Would that it were that simple.

A shorter board might well be too responsive, unstable, and thus less effective than a longer board.

Much of it has to do with how well you can use the board as an energy storage and retrieval device.

Also, the area in which you can get 'the job' done.

And these are somewhat dependent on skill, and the default means by which you move the board from one edge to the other while under stress.

Really? Too responsive for tight turns on uber steep? Maybe my lack of eastern ice experience prevents me from understand this. Skill dependent for sure.

 

Being able to make controlled C shaped carves that go back up the slope will help to slow you down a lot, ec style or not. (and a board that doesn't spring you out of them) Thanks for posting about the taper, that never clicked for me before. Explains why I have difficulty making some of my boards do this.

If your turning uphill your turning uphill; for me taper gets the new edge engaged back across the slope that much sooner.

 

Corey, if you can get a 14scr carver around a full C carve to check speed on steeps 3 groomer passes wide, I'll bow down now and slink off to the nearest 45* groomer with my short radius tapered AM carvers and throw my body down the falline.

 

I've been really digging my NOS nideckers with 8m radius and .4cm taper for carving steep groom and for zipper lining steep bumps. What I've found by swapping between the identically shaped and flex, 8m scr 176x23 and 166x21.5 on my favorite single black (35*+/-), is that at 6 cat passes (depending on overlap) the 176 has the real estate to carve back uphill to check speed and come around the next turn before flying into the bumps/trees. At 5 passes or less the 166 comes around faster, transitions quicker, and trenches deeper thereby checking more speed w/out slarving the start of new turn to bring it around in time.

 

On the steeper 45* winch groomers at Schwietzer that Sean Martin called "terrifyingly steep", all of this is exacerbated; and when they're icy it aint happening. I'll don 2 edges or go home lest the single edge breaks loose and I take the death slide to the bottom of the run

Edited April 17, 2016 by b0ardski

[b0ardski]

Carving steep trails is what I love most about carving....

Yes I am a steep trail adrenaline junky :-)

Once you learn how to carve on steeps it is absolutely addicting. Getting upside down on an uber steep trail and then pulling the board around you while pulling some serious G's is such an adrenaline rush. You will never learn how to carve the steeps until you commit to diving down hill.

throwing you back over the heel edge down steep falline and feelin' the G's as the board comes around is the ultimate rush for me, more than powder in the trees.

[Corey]

Corey, if you can get a 14scr carver around a full C carve to check speed on steeps 3 groomer passes wide, I'll bow down now and slink off to the nearest 45* groomer with my short radius tapered AM carvers and throw my body down the falline.

 

This is a 14/15m Coiler ECR on a 35-ish degree slope for the first 4 turns or so before it flattens out. The run is wider than 3 passes, but they don't groom the side under the lift very well.  

 

 

Same board was awesome on Ajax the one time I've seen it groomed.  

 

No snoozing allowed, nor time traversing between turns.  I do cheat the turn entry if I make a mistake, turning the board a bit in the transition to start the next turn pre-rotated away from right across the hill.  

[b0ardski]

No snoozing allowed, nor time traversing between turns.  I do cheat the turn entry if I make a mistake, turning the board a bit in the transition to start the next turn pre-rotated away from right across the hill.  

I often cheat the entry too.

Guess I should get a coiler ec. Nice turns man,

 

but uphill c turns to keep from speeding out of control were obviously not necessary there.

I guess our ideas of what steep is vary, looks more like 25* blue.

[Corey]

Sorry, only video I have.

I also tend to ride slower than most, never letting the speed build too much in the first place.

[b0ardski]

I also tend to ride slower than most, never letting the speed build too much in the first place.

this is key to smooth riding on the steeps, and THE reason I turn uphill.

 

one of my favorite sayings is "you may beat me to the bottom, but I will have traveled twice as far".

Edited April 18, 2016 by b0ardski