F2 binding vs Bomber

[Jack M]

There is also the phenomenon of the also-rans wanting to ride the same gear as the winners.

[Corey]

There is also the phenomenon of the also-rans wanting to ride the same gear as the winners.

 

Racing or freeriding?    We're all World Champion freeriders!  

[queequeg]

Don't forget Burton/Ibex, Virus, Phiokka, SnowPro, etc. 

 

 

I started riding the Virus Powerlock binding this year and like it a lot. Very simple, stiff, direct, bombproof, and low stack. I had been on bombers for years, and was happy with them but always found them a bit complicated, and I was having trouble getting my feet biased correctly with them (particularly the sidewinders). The powerlock seems similar to the Phiokka binding in many ways. They are a bit on the expensive side though.

Edited February 29, 2016 by queequeg

[Beckmann AG]

And of course there's the part where the dominant movement paradigm for racing is reliant on a flexible plastic binding.

[philw]

If you mean that the flex comes partly from the non-metallic parts then that's possibly true, but there's no particular reason to assume that "metal" is a more appropriate material for such a purpose.

 

I think "paradigm" isn't the best term to use if you mean "mechanism".

[Beckmann AG]

If you mean that the flex comes partly from the non-metallic parts then that's possibly true, but there's no particular reason to assume that "metal" is a more appropriate material for such a purpose.

 

I think "paradigm" isn't the best term to use if you mean "mechanism".

 

 

I typed what I meant, and meant what I typed.

 

Metal would be a more appropriate choice if the dominant technique favored finesse/accuracy rather than strength/impact.

At this stage on the evolutionary timeline, racing trends toward the latter.

'Give' between the boot plastic and the top-sheet serves as a 'buffer' for extraneous movement. A 'filtering mechanism', if you will.

The first sentence above is the paradigm, the third is the mechanism within the paradigm.

 

In the event your OED slumped behind the chesterfield:

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradigm

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mechanism

Edited March 1, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[MikeC]

I think it's important to point out that we are talking about F2 vs. Sidewinders according to the OP.

 

I raced one year using SWs with the blue pads and red E-rings.  Stiffest combo possible.  The flex feels similar to that of the F2s (standing still).

 

I still have doubts about the durability of plastic in the F2s, but until they break the weight savings makes it worth carrying the doubt around with me.

 

I much prefer the F2s.  I feel that the SW offers a disconnect when on a hard edge.  This is great for the carving enthusiast, as it covers up some of the harsh realities that come with bad conditions.  However, if you aren't a leisurely carver and each run is a race run minus the gates, I think it's important to know exactly what is going on beneath your feet.  That's how you learn to deal with certain unexpected snow conditions that you couldn't see the turn before.  The edge feedback on F2s is very immediate, whereas on Bombers you are waiting for the pads and rings to compress before you can feel what's going on.  

 

Just my $.02.

[Jack M]

I think it's important to point out that we are talking about F2 vs. Sidewinders according to the OP.

 

I raced one year using SWs with the blue pads and red E-rings.  Stiffest combo possible.  The flex feels similar to that of the F2s (standing still).

 

I still have doubts about the durability of plastic in the F2s, but until they break the weight savings makes it worth carrying the doubt around with me.

 

I much prefer the F2s.  I feel that the SW offers a disconnect when on a hard edge.  This is great for the carving enthusiast, as it covers up some of the harsh realities that come with bad conditions.  However, if you aren't a leisurely carver and each run is a race run minus the gates, I think it's important to know exactly what is going on beneath your feet.  That's how you learn to deal with certain unexpected snow conditions that you couldn't see the turn before.  The edge feedback on F2s is very immediate, whereas on Bombers you are waiting for the pads and rings to compress before you can feel what's going on.  

 

Just my $.02.

 

So why bother riding Sidewinders then?  TD3s and red (hard) or blue (medium) e-rings are there for you.  I don't ride Sidewinders for that reason. I'm also not getting the weight issue.  Are the few ounces of difference even noticeable when you are running a big metal board and a suspension plate?  I've heard racers actually like more weight down there. I've never considered Bombers heavy, and I went from Burtons to TD1s at first.

[slopestar]

I run power plates and burly flow nx2gt bindings an a very stiff/heavy BX. Weight is no issue. I run yellow elastomers on my Td-3 bases and love it. No one else is currently providing a softboot system that has the versatility that this provides. I'm no racer but the system works...insert sarcasm here.... Notice the latency in my turns here. I'm totally waiting for the edge to engage and the weight is a big problem...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H8MyUEYtEwE

[H2O]

After years of use of different bindings, F2 race titanium are my favourites.

They are also the most used both by racers and by carvers. 

I like them as they are:

- light

- simple and quick to adjust

- cheap

- not too stiff and at the same time trasmissive.

Look no further.

I tried a few times Bomber TD3 (from my friend) but I did'nt like as the F2; too heavy, too hardworking to adjust, and for me (from Italy) too expensive.

I use also Ibex binding, another good bindings with a lot of flex (I prefer them on my freeride and carve Pureboarding boards).

[MikeC]

So why bother riding Sidewinders then?  TD3s and red (hard) or blue (medium) e-rings are there for you.  I don't ride Sidewinders for that reason. I'm also not getting the weight issue.  Are the few ounces of difference even noticeable when you are running a big metal board and a suspension plate?  I've heard racers actually like more weight down there. I've never considered Bombers heavy, and I went from Burtons to TD1s at first.

Bomber TD3 per website 4.5lb

F2 Ti per website 3.41lb.

 

Difference is over 16 oz.

 

Lest we forget the comparison of boot foot print that is directly transmitted to the board via the binding.  The majority of ones footbed is directly linked to the board via F2, whereas on a Bomber (almost half?) of your foot is suspended.  This reduces the leverage you have over the board.

 

I have no say (or care) in the outcome of this, just pointing out the obvious differences.

[slopestar]

Seems like being suspended would create more leverage. See definition of lever and fulcrum...

[AcousticBoarder]

Seems like being suspended would create more leverage. See definition of lever and fulcrum...

Agreed, one of the advantages of using power plates for soft boots is that it adds more leverage.

[Jack M]

Bomber TD3 per website 4.5lb

F2 Ti per website 3.41lb.

 

Difference is over 16 oz.

 

Lest we forget the comparison of boot foot print that is directly transmitted to the board via the binding.  The majority of ones footbed is directly linked to the board via F2, whereas on a Bomber (almost half?) of your foot is suspended.  This reduces the leverage you have over the board.

 

I have no say (or care) in the outcome of this, just pointing out the obvious differences.

 

4.5 lbs is the weight for the Sidewinder, which is heavier than the TD3, plus all hardware.  Does the F2 weight include all hardware?

 

The footprint of the bindings does not affect leverage.

[MikeC]

4.5 lbs is the weight for the Sidewinder, which is heavier than the TD3, plus all hardware.  Does the F2 weight include all hardware?

 

The footprint of the bindings does not affect leverage.

I don't know. Fastenal has M6-1x25mm stainless socket caps @ .0125lb/ea. making a set of 8 weigh .1lb or 1.6oz.

 

By hanging the boot over the board so far, you are inducing additional flex in the system.  Sure it's not physical leverage, but it might as well be.  You are increasing the work the binding, inserts, bolts, and latitudinal strength of the board must do to transmit the same force to the edge vs. having the footprint of the binding reach out and do it itself.  Yet another disconnect between rider and snow.

 

Could everyone feel it if they rode them side by side?  Don't know, but I do know that I could tell the difference.

Edited March 2, 2016 by MikeC

[slopestar]

So connected slop is better than dampened leverage...? Ya. That makes no sense to me

[slopestar]

I'm sorry. Let's just leave it as I prefer bomber.

[Corey]

I agree that the board interface is different, but I'd also argue that the flex characteristics of the bindings dwarf any flex/leverage that the board experiences.  Height differences are another factor, but a VIST plate changes that much more than the change from F2 to TD3.  

 

Luckily, there's room for lots of options.  I ride TD3 step-in SW bindings but I'm friends with people that ride F2s, and even one crazy guy that rides Virus bindings.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

I run power plates and burly flow nx2gt bindings an a very stiff/heavy BX. Weight is no issue. I run yellow elastomers on my Td-3 bases and love it. No one else is currently providing a softboot system that has the versatility that this provides. I'm no racer but the system works...insert sarcasm here.... Notice the latency in my turns here. I'm totally waiting for the edge to engage and the weight is a big problem...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H8MyUEYtEwE

With all due respect to your riding, there's no way we can tell if you are experiencing any latency from that video, and definitely not whether someone of greater skill would perceive any such issues: people at varying degrees of skill have varying degrees of perception as to what their equipment is doing.  I personally find that I am the weakest link in any setup, so in my case I tend not to look for hardware solutions to wetware problems.  World Cup racers have a very different point of view.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[AJCdice]

Not getting into which is better (have a long history with all of Bombers, Cateks, F2s). Right now Blue Tomato has a pretty great sale on all F2 versions, FYI. Titanflexes to my door in the US for under 2 bills.

[bumpyride]

I'm a lightweight-140 lbs.  I pretty much ride bumps at a relatively high speed, with lots of impact.  I use F2s only with Intec, and a plastic base.  I ride at least 40 to 60+ days a year, and have used the same group of bindings for the last 10+ years, and never had a failure.  They flex enough to absorb most of the chatter and impact I had with stiffer bindings.

 

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Despite being rather new to hardboot bindings, it sounds like this could be an appropriate summary:

 

Lets make an assumption that most hardboots fall into some distribution of stiffness or have equal stiffness.

Titanium and aerospace alloy bindings such as Bomber (TD, SW etc.) and Catek (OS...etc) are popular with freecarvers since these are quite stiff axially and laterally. Primary customers of these bindings seem to typically use these in groom and piste with minimal bumps in terrain where technique and precision make a noticable difference to the experienced rider since the interface is inherently stiff.

 

Racers however typically seem to gravitate towards F2 or equivalent plastic/metal interface or construction, due to either cost or lighter weight. Is it possible that the flex in these binding is utilized like a boiler/power plate system, which keeps racers more concentrated on the path instead needing to keep their mind on the terrain and bumps.

 

Or perhaps that lighter riders = smaller nominal loads calling for lighter, less stiff bindings and that's really it. 

 

Mostly guessing and I wonder if any of this is correct.

Edited March 19, 2016 by iplaywithnoshoes

[MikeC]

Despite being rather new to hardboot bindings, it sounds like this could be an appropriate summary:

 

Lets make an assumption that most hardboots fall into some distribution of stiffness or have equal stiffness.

Titanium and aerospace alloy bindings such as Bomber (TD, SW etc.) and Catek (OS...etc) are popular with freecarvers since these are quite stiff axially and laterally. Primary customers of these bindings seem to typically use these in groom and piste with minimal bumps in terrain where technique and precision make a noticable difference to the experienced rider since the interface is inherently stiff.

 

Racers however typically seem to gravitate towards F2 or equivalent plastic/metal interface or construction, due to either cost or lighter weight. Is it possible that the flex in these binding is utilized like a boiler/power plate system, which keeps racers more concentrated on the path instead needing to keep their mind on the terrain and bumps.

 

Or perhaps that lighter riders = smaller nominal loads calling for lighter, less stiff bindings and that's really it. 

 

Mostly guessing and I wonder if any of this is correct.

You will find that a plate is on most every GS board in the world cup circuit along with F2s.  It is interesting to see the spread in plate use for slalom though.  Everything from Gecko plates to Allflex and the Vist system.  I would say cost is no issue considering the cost of keeping a fleet of 4-8 boards waxed and ready to race all season.  

 

Weight was a big seller for me.