SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Not sure if anyone else has posted this already, but today's NY Times has a beautifully-executed feature on Olympic giant slalom skier Ted Ligeti... http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/sochi-olympics/giant-slalom.html?hp The focus of the story is rather amusing---which is that Ligeti has "invented a new way of skiing," which is...(wait for it!)...a technique taken directly from Alpine carving! :D Seriously, if you haven't looked at this story yet, go check it out (the graphics and video are awesome). But there are all sorts of diagrams pointing out the "totally unique" technique of getting the skis 90-degrees to the surface of the snow...starting each new turn while finishing the last one...tracing a more serpentine line down the mountain...and not putting out as much of a roostertail as other skiers (because he "cleanly carves through the snow"). I was both amused and somewhat irritated that not once in the story did either Ligeti or the NY Times even mention the phrase "a technique borrowed from alpine carving snowboarding." Oh well---we carvers will just have to keep toiling away in obscurity while stars like Ligeti claim our technique for his own, LOL. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 what was old will always be new again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I give Ligeti credit for adopting alpine carving style on skis...but c'mon, give credit where it's due---it doesn't take away from his success! And I'm 100% certain he's spent plenty of time watching hardbooters carve at whatever resorts he trains. Probably didn't take long for him to say "Hmmm...I wonder if I could do that on skis?" LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Nice find, fantastic looking site...but I agree..."amused and somewhat irritated" describes my reaction. Anyone want to tackle a letter to the editor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Nice find, fantastic looking site...but I agree..."amused and somewhat irritated" describes my reaction. Anyone want to tackle a letter to the editor? I thought about it (I'm a professional writer). It's frustrating that they didn't have a place for comments after the story (they do for many stories). I mean, I don't really consider myself a "Fact Policeman," but clearly Ligeti is perfectly happy to promote the myth that he invented this technique. I suppose there is a *slim* chance he might have arrived at carving technique on his own while just trying to figure out how to make faster, cleaner turns on longer, stiffer skis...but I doubt it. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 "Our Source was The New York Times" <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jsNZvfCGv3k" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Here are some excerpts from the story: Through each turn, Ligety is so low that he is nearly sitting on the snow, and the edges of his skis form a nearly 90-degree angle with the snow. The most noticeable element to Ligety's style is mid-turn, where his body is horizontal to the hill. The trace of his path is smoother and more serpentine than that of his foes, who ski in somewhat violent fits and starts, sliding into their turns and making adjustments that spray snow. The perfect Ligety path is one constant in speed and rhythm, with little sideways sliding. For Ligety’s technique to work, he must begin his next turn while still finishing his last. "It's a really fast transition, where I'm on my downhill ski, and starting my new turn on the other ski; I go from the apex and pushing as hard as I can, it's almost a step onto the new ski while it's still on the edge in the turn I was currently on...it's rolling from the uphill edge to the downhill edge---I'm getting on the new ski before you actually switch it. Sound familiar? LOL Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Yellow Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) (sarcasm) yeah... he is def ripping off alpine carving... I mean, we invented carving, right? :D (sarcasm) Edited February 12, 2014 by Mellow Yellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I don't think hardbooters invented carving. The percentage of people carving on hardboots is way higher than those on skis, but ski racers have been carving to some degree for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can't see why anyone's noses should be out of joint over a graphical piece like this. It's not like there's any editorial space for a detailed history of the carved turn, of which snowboarding is a part of but not the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can't see why anyone's noses should be out of joint over a graphical piece like this. It's not like there's any editorial space for a detailed history of the carved turn, of which snowboarding is a part of but not the whole story. It's a beautifully-produced story, and as I said above, Ligety's accomplishments are awesome. My point was simply to say it's misleading to suggest Ligety invented carving---which is definitely the main point of the whole story. The story could easily have said that Ligety's style is almost identical to alpine hard boot snowboarding---which it is. (Just faster!) I was simply struck by the fact that Ligety's own explanation for his technique could have been lifted---word for word---right out of the many tutorials I've seen on learning to carve on an alpine board. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I was simply struck by the fact that Ligety's own explanation for his technique could have been lifted---word for word---right out of the many tutorials I've seen on learning to carve on an alpine board.i think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. if you want a one-plank beginning for the techniques we try to use, slalom waterskiing is just as applicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 What are the specifics of the equipment rule change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwavedave Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 History of the shaped ski: http://skiinghistory.org/history/evolution-ski-shape Basically, inspired by snowboard shapes and hardboot carvers, ski manufacturers started playing with increased sidecut. Elan produced a line of "shaped" skis in the early 1990's, which didn't catch on until Bode Miller started winning races on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Holy feces batman, what a bunch of stroke "It's a really fast transition, where I'm on my downhill ski, and starting my new turn on the other ski; I go from the apex and pushing as hard as I can, it's almost a step onto the new ski while it's still on the edge in the turn I was currently on...it's rolling from the uphill edge to the downhill edge---I'm getting on the new ski before you actually switch it." I was practicing initiating the next turn with the uphill ski before finishing the current tun on the down hill ski when snowboards were bent plywood toys. Anyone that thinks this is "new" or "comes from alpine snowboarding" is "new":barf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 NYT has done some innovative work in bringing these features to new media. Perhaps few people saw this coverage of the avalanche at Stevens Pass a couple of years back. Anybody know how this stuff is put together? HTML5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 i think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. if you want a one-plank beginning for the techniques we try to use, slalom waterskiing is just as applicable. Not making a mountain out of it Kieran...just saying the Times (and Ligety) are wrong to suggest he invented this technique. That's all. I mean heck, if nobody cared about getting facts straight, why shouldn't the NY Times just make things up? :) NYT has done some innovative work in bringing these features to new media. Perhaps few people saw this coverage of the avalanche at Stevens Pass a couple of years back. Anybody know how this stuff is put together? HTML5? Yep---I pounced on "Snowfall" the day it was released---and it was incredibly innovative! I love it. The technique is known as "parallax," which is based on the general concept of a multi-layered web page where the timing and visibility of different layers is controlled by scrolling speed and position. I'm pretty sure it's all done with Javascript. When "Snowfall" came out, it was hyped a lot---and even became a verb (as in, "Suddenly newspapers everywhere wanted to Snowfall their stories." LOL) Some people dismissed it as a gimmick---but I think they're wrong---and think this is the future of online storytelling. "Snowfall" takes a while (at least a good 30 minutes) to read all the way through (and watch the videos and study the graphics) but it's absolutely worth it! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Compared to the kind of silly text in the interactive feature, the accompanying article is less sensationalistic; basically just says that Ligety has a different approach from other skiers that yields cleaner turns but requires more strength / balance, rather than suggesting he invented a super-secret revolutionary technique. Have to smile at the video showing him on a fresh course with no ruts...I bet he looks a lot different once the course is rutted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patmoore Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 He is something to watch. At Winter Park two years ago, he paceset the snowboard course on skis as did Doug Lewis, Jake Fiala, and A J Kitt. He beat those fast guys by 2 seconds on a 30 second course. He's a genuinely nice guy and was more than obliging to pose for a shot with this elderly snowboard racer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cool pic! And again---for the record---I like Ted Ligety and am in awe of what he's done. And his technique is an adaptation of previously-existing carving technique used by (not invented by) alpine hard boot snowboarders. Skiers have, of course, been carving for decades. But the style of carving with edges perpendicular to the slope and body almost fully laid-out horizontally along the slope mid-turn is a style popularized by alpine hard boot snowboarders. That is all. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekdut Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 They now have a picture of old Burton Ice hardboots as an example of what we wear, and an F2 Speedster. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/13/sports/olympics/olympics-gear.html?hp&_r=0 About halfway down the page. Nice to see a mention at least. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I don't think hardbooters invented carving. The percentage of people carving on hardboots is way higher than those on skis, but ski racers have been carving to some degree for a long time. Well, we brought it to the masses via shaped skis, which were absolutely modeled after alpine snowboards. Before I snowboarded (i.e. when I was <=12) my friends and I would "downhill race" down uncrowded classic narrow winding New England trails, only turning where the trail turned, on our old school skis just so we could feel them carve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 As long as the mainstream media is talking about carving, who cares who invented it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Truth is...Carving has been going on for thousands of years by People who learned how to do it... Has innovation in equipment made it easier...Yes Stein, Killy, Klammer, Tomba All Carved their Turns Folks... I carved my Skateboard, my Surfboard, my Skis, now I carve my Snowboard...Stoked for Liggety that he learned how to Though I must add here that I could not Carve my Snowster down Aspen Mt. all those years ago... Edited February 14, 2014 by softbootsailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwavedave Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Started skiing in the late 50's. Never saw a ski with a sidecut like a alpine snowboard nor a skier hold a carved edge for more than a second or two until shaped skis began appearing on the slopes in the early nineties. Alpine snowboarding definitely deserves credit for making the carved turn a religious experience, not just a technique, and yes, inspired by surfing. If you read the article on the history of shaped skis (from ski magazine), they readily give credit to alpine snowboarding. If you think about it, large radius carving boards were a natural evolution that followed in the tracks of snow grooming technological advances. The opposite happened in the nordic ski world, where as trails became groomed and tracked, skis lost all sidecut and skate skiing was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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