Where is Carving Headed?

[snowboardfast]

I think the sport is doing well for now. I don't think you can make alpine gear cheap as it has to withstand more forces while riding to work well. Also if you could flood the market with much cheaper gear I don't think you would get that many more folks to switch over to riding alpine. There were more shops selling alpine snowboards in Colorado than there are now back in the 90's and I didn't see very many hardboot riders then nor do we see very many now in comparison to softboots. Of course now the gear is better and more options are available. Of course this goes for softboots as well. I think that is why most snowboarders are not interested in alpine as their softboot gear works well for them and it is much cheaper. I hope we can continue to buy gear for a long time. I think the people making it now are intrested in doing this for a long time. This will allow the sport to continue for many years and I hope as long as I will be able to do it. About all you can do to help is to talk to people who show interest in what you are doing and tell them where they can buy and or demo gear.We are lucky here in Colorado to have Bomber as a place to buy and or demo. I have told several folks this year about Bomber and maybe they will demo a board? It will be up to them.

[piusthedrcarve]

I think poppy, lower SCR semi bi-directional boards could become a trend for hardboot riders. If you watch the playful styles of PureBoarding or CasperCarver it seems like wild fun to everybody. I think it closes the gap between hardboot equipment and freestyle mindset. Let's make fun in the first place

Swoard Dual.

Check this link.

http://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/announcements/Swoard_DUAL_en.pdf

Freeride, Freecarve, Soft & Hard boots.....

Swoard is going that direction at least..

[Bobby Buggs]

Rossignol Unfortunately they don't sell race boards to the U.S. market any more, but the some of the last race boards they made had cores that consisted of a mixture of wood and two different foams.

It was called the THC core;)

[Transistor Rhythm]

Swoard Dual.

Check this link.

http://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/announcements/Swoard_DUAL_en.pdf

Freeride, Freecarve, Soft & Hard boots.....

Swoard is going that direction at least..

The board would certainly qualify I think, but J&P are currently not promoting the type of riding I described. I think if they would make some new videos featuring the board they would sell a lot more of them

[crucible]

5-10 years from now our sport will be going downhill- FAST!

Sorry- couldn't resist.....

Geo

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I'm new to the "carving world," but stand firmly with Linus. Things can only get better:

[Buell]

what is alpine carving going to look like in the next 5-10 years?

What's going to be the NEW "New Hotness?" Would you share your thoughts about the future of alpine carving in some possible areas:

• Technology<o>:p</o>:p
  
• Riding Technique<o>:p</o>:p
  
• Sport Popularity<o>:p</o>:p
  
• Equipment manufacturing
  
• (others?)

<o>

If you look back 5 to 10 years, from what I can tell, not that much has actually changed beyond the current board technology in the freeride world.

I would be incredibly impressed if boards can go through the level of design and materials improvements we have seen over the last 4 or 5 years. I would would be okay with it though. ;) I expect we will see refinements with a major improvement here and there.

Plates may become a bigger part of a freecarver's equipment, but they need to become lighter and cheaper for most freecarves to use them. Will bindings and plates become more integrated?

Riding technique will continue to range from racer technique to extreme carving technique and everything in between. There are so many isolated carvers making up their own style. I don't think this will change.

Alpine will continue to be a niche sport. Too technique based, physically demanding, and difficult to find equipment for most snow sports enthusiast. They may love to watch, but will never pick it up.

Hopefully something will change with our boots (but I doubt it). As BlueB mentioned, AT boots might be a direction to head for some of us.

</o>

[KingCrimson]

If you look back 5 to 10 years, from what I can tell, not that much has actually changed beyond the current board technology in the freeride world.

</O>

I hope you mean strictly in terms of lamination.

Obviously shaping and profile are major, but you should already know that.

On topic..I don't see anything wrong with a well dampened wood core and glass laminate construction for freeride purposes.

I typed this long story about how my dad babied his race stock GS skis but still ended up with a kinked laminate, splintered core, and a rockered tail, but his normal construction pow skis have been stuck in moguls and debarked many trees without issue.

It was anecdotal and largely pointless, but it led to the point that Olympic mogul skis are still made with good old triax glass. They aren't made for maximized edge hold, but neither are freeride boards.

I question how useful a metal freeride board would be. Ignoring the fragility, the stance doesn't lend itself to good edgehold. Obviously the Kessler BX boards are made this way, but I do not believe those guys do not crank the edge angles to make weight placement as critical.

[Buell]

I hope you mean strictly in terms of lamination.

Obviously shaping and profile are major, but you should already know that.

My statement meant to exclude board improvements, which are significant, (shape, flex, camber profile, materials, .....) from my statement of not that much has changed.

[slopetool]

How many snowboarders even know who Jasey Jay is? That is unfortunate. Carving will always be there for people like us. Thanks for all that have kept it alive! Its us who will have to be the ones who drive it to the next level and the future. We need to be great spokespeople for this level of snowboarding and be good role models like Shawn White or it will die. Fast downhill racing, as in alpine skiing (as least a Super-G ) would help bring attention to our area of the sport. Far too many people have lost touch with racing and now only see BX in the media. I'm up for ideas before I give up and buy a Skate Banana board. It really shows when you look at the Olympic coverage of the PGS. But we will never let it die. our custom boards are far too awesome.

[NateW]

I wonder if an Olympic Super-G would help pique everyone's interest. Or better yet, BX without the berms.

Foam cores certainly got a bad reputation due to the skis and boards made with them in the past. It does seem like technology should give us something better than wood though, if it hasn't already.

Base technology is due for a revolution, too. Teflon? :)

How about a plate system, with fluid-filled dampers extending from the ends of the plate to the tip and tail? With the right damper design you could use it to improve torsional flex a lot as well (not through damping, but through rigidity orthogonal to the damper axis).

[Steve Prokopiw]

to those watching us from chairlifts,carving definitely could be showcased in 'exhibition' style format along with traditional forms of boarding or skiing.

The reactions a competent freecarver gets from skiers and jibbers alike says to me that the niche is here to stay.

That said, we have to continue being good ambassadors to keep the acceptance we have now in addition to gaining more acceptance from resort management in order to shore up defense of the sport against the few detractors that can get us banned.

[Sultan Guy]

I have to admit I am not up to speed on the history of foam cores being used in snowboards as a replacement for wood cores. As is often the case certain materials can be used incorrectly by a few manufacturers and then that material gets an undeserved bad reputation.

A few months ago I attended a very interesting presentation at the monthly meeting of SAMPE in Seattle. The speakers were two guys from K2 who are responsible for Madshus X-country ski development. They use wood cores in the low end skis but all the high end skis use PMI foam cores and they are lighter and offer superior camber retention. These guys were very knowledgeable about the materials that they use and the pros and cons of each.

I realize that PGS type snowboard carving and cross country ski racing are two very different sports with major differences in the mechanical forces at work, however I would think there are enough similarities where a more consistent, highly engineered foam core material would outperform wood.

[valsam]

I think poppy, lower SCR semi bi-directional boards could become a trend for hardboot riders. If you watch the playful styles of PureBoarding or CasperCarver it seems like wild fun to everybody. I think it closes the gap between hardboot equipment and freestyle mindset. Let's make fun in the first place

If more guys like kasperkarver :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsAtK47c8PM

ride at the mountains then alot of heads will turn and people will get very interested in hardbooting!

Damn it that the season is over here, i would sure like to try extremecarving switch with my shorty!

(Is that board an asym?it sure looks like one to me and also a very short one!)

[Aracan]

Yep, it's definitely an asy, but I can't make out the logo. F2? Pogo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I can definitely say that the alpine race riding technique for recreational riding is going to vanish (it just doesn't look good anymore to me and allot of people i know)and the extremecarving full laid down body dragging technique is going to be the way to ride in the future,it might even cause a big boom of bringing allot of people to hardboots !

Eh. The EC style is a cool party trick but a very limiting way to ride a mountain. Tough to lay it over in the trees or in the bumps. Personally I'd like to see hardboots get out of the groomer ghetto and become more popular for all-mountain riding.

[NateW]

...and become more popular for all-mountain riding.

I agree with this idea.

[pokkis]

Yep, it's definitely an asy, but I can't make out the logo. F2? Pogo?

F2 Beamer as written in end texts

[xy9ine]

i think the new more rider friendly designs (ie, decambered, metal, wider profiles) are positive steps that indicate an evolution towards more versatility. super narrow hardware focus is detrimental to the sports growth & i think the new gear makes alpine more appealing to a broader spectrum. i'm thinking 'all-mountain / freecarve' has the potential for future growth. one do it board, with the convenience of step in bindings & pain free performance of hard boots - sounds like a winning concept.

with the more versatile freeride oriented boards (but still with hard carving potential) i also see more development of the softer boot / binding interfaces (whether compliance be engineered in the binding like the new bombers, or boots like the upz atb, or a combination of both). a bit 'softer' interface to facilitate both beginners & freeride versatility (jumping, etc) to appeal to a larger audience.

[bobdea]

If more guys like kasperkarver :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsAtK47c8PM

ride at the mountains then alot of heads will turn and people will get very interested in hardbooting!

Damn it that the season is over here, i would sure like to try extremecarving switch with my shorty!

(Is that board an asym?it sure looks like one to me and also a very short one!)

I don't see riding like in that video converting many jibbers.

maybe old school skiers though.

the guy is a really good rider, I'd like to see what he'd be able to do on modern gear at higher speeds.

to the eye of a jibber what he is doing is A extreme version of the turns lots of park rats do on the way to the park. most of the stuff I've seen park kids get excited about are seeing big powerful turns at high speeds. EC helps for catching their eyes but is by no means required. most of the park set realize their boards don't turn well above moderate speeds and it's why when they see people killing it at GS type speeds they take notice.

I was riding with a couple hardbooter two of which are really good riders, few softerbooters commented watching us(or, probably the two there that were really good riders!) was sick and the like.

[valsam]

I don't see riding like in that video converting many jibbers.

maybe old school skiers though.

the guy is a really good rider, I'd like to see what he'd be able to do on modern gear at higher speeds.

to the eye of a jibber what he is doing is A extreme version of the turns lots of park rats do on the way to the park. most of the stuff I've seen park kids get excited about are seeing big powerful turns at high speeds. EC helps for catching their eyes but is by no means required. most of the park set realize their boards don't turn well above moderate speeds and it's why when they see people killing it at GS type speeds they take notice.

I was riding with a couple hardbooter two of which are really good riders, few softbooters commented watching us(or, probably the two there that were really good riders!) was sick and the like.

I tried bringing into snowboarding 4 friends of mine in the past from skiing and all 4 times i gave them my alpine gear to try ,all 4 cursed at me and gave up after 1-2 hours of trying but when they tried softboots they did it easier ,i even tried it with 2 already softbooters and both gave up because they found it very hard mostly because of the binding angles and the restriction of the boots,even i back in 1995 when i wanted to make the transition from skiing to snowboarding when i visited Austria and alpine snowboarding was big back then rented an alpine set and found it very hard especially getting up after falling(i lasted 3 hours of beating and went and bought skis there!)but went i came back home and visited a local mountain i tried softboots and boy was that easy compared to hardboots,i went down the hole mountain without even falling once!

So besides that alpine snowboarding isn't advertised allot and gear not found easily and way too expensive i think that also the difficulty is a major factor for not attracting many people!

[b0ardski]

it needs to go across the whole mountain and right into the backcountry.

Eh. The EC style is a cool party trick but a very limiting way to ride a mountain. Tough to lay it over in the trees or in the bumps. Personally I'd like to see hardboots get out of the groomer ghetto and become more popular for all-mountain riding.

+1

I get a little frustrated with HBers that tout the precision & edge control afforded by a plate binding interface and then revert to straps & laces to go off piste. Now, by all means, leave the stiff race boots and 18cm boards on groomers and get some 225s or old 3 buckles of any brand and hook'em up to some F2s or sidewinders on an over 20 wide board that doesn't require 60+ angles.

Now put an accomplished park rider on that set up so they don't have to go straight from wake board to slalom ski technique and they'll start to understand the power without getting tripped up. I did this with a local kid last week and after 2 runs he was tearin it up on steeps that most carvers avoid. Now we can start getting his angles forward and on to a skinnier board.

Hardboots designed for off piste riding are what's needed to convert a percentage of the masses and create a market demand for R&D of a new generation of boots. Scarpa & Garmont only need a couple tweaks to existing ATs to nail it down. An affordable lateral flexing plate binding won't be far behind:biggthump

Did I mention DINtech

[Alaskan Rover]

it needs to go across the whole mountain and right into the backcountry.

+1

I get a little frustrated with HBers that tout the precision & edge control afforded by a plate binding interface and then revert to straps & laces to go off piste. Now, by all means, leave the stiff race boots and 18cm boards on groomers and get some 225s or old 3 buckles of any brand and hook'em up to some F2s or sidewinders on an over 20 wide board that doesn't require 60+ angles.

Now put an accomplished park rider on that set up so they don't have to go straight from wake board to slalom ski technique and they'll start to understand the power without getting tripped up. I did this with a local kid last week and after 2 runs he was tearin it up on steeps that most carvers avoid. Now we can start getting his angles forward and on to a skinnier board.

Hardboots designed for off piste riding are what's needed to convert a percentage of the masses and create a market demand for R&D of a new generation of boots. Scarpa & Garmont only need a couple tweaks to existing ATs to nail it down. An affordable lateral flexing plate binding won't be far behind:biggthump

EXACTLY, B0ardski!! One of the biggest reasons I have stayed away from conventional hardboot/raceboard set-up is that they are designed principally for groomed runs. My current set up allows me to explore the WHOLE mountain...however, there are certain aspects of off-piste where a freeride board and softboots just SUCK compared to the AT skis/boots I normally use for such work...and that is steep, very icy, windswept crust.

It would really be nice to have a board (like the splitboard I am think of ripping from an old board) and binding set-up that I can use my Scarpa Denalis on that I already use for ATing. And I would like to use those hardboots at my standard angles of 15/5. I have tried the high angles....don't like them at ALL...feels alien to me. But I am VERY intrigued to find out how much more control I would be able to beget from hardboots at that 15/5 all-mountain angle. The ONLY skinny boards I ride come in a pair. My wide board would be able to accept a hardboot (depending on the binding) at 15/5, I think. I am curious to try.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Then just buy a pair of bindings and slap them on to the board of your choice. What's holding you back? There's nothing saying the board has to be skinny. I ran plates on a Burton Asym Air for years. Plates with the AT boots and freeride board you already have is a pretty cheap introduction to hard booting.

[bobdea]

it needs to go across the whole mountain and right into the backcountry.

+1

I get a little frustrated with HBers that tout the precision & edge control afforded by a plate binding interface and then revert to straps & laces to go off piste. Now, by all means, leave the stiff race boots and 18cm boards on groomers and get some 225s or old 3 buckles of any brand and hook'em up to some F2s or sidewinders on an over 20 wide board that doesn't require 60+ angles.

[/b][/i][/u]

okay, if you ignore the exact reason they choose softboots for pow. less response, better board feel and generally easier handling in tight areas.

hardboots are just a inferior tool for most people in powder. not to mention how miserable post holing in hardboots is.