Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems

[pokkis]

Is the height of Boiler Plate already public information? if yes, how much :rolleyes:

[kieran]

i'll chime in here with a specific response based on experience;

Of course, once you start riding you may find what feels good on carpet doesn't always work on snow.

because i'm a n00b this may just be poor form. i found i mount my bindings quite rearward, and drive quite hard/forward with my front foot. might be height or (poor) style related. on the 184GS it was the only comfortable stance i could find that also let me turn the thing.

with the plate, i've kept the stance width, angles and cant, but i've had to go centered over the board. my back foot is above the rear axle, and front foot is behind the front slider, but wrt the board, i'm centered and more upright.

on carpet, i feel too far forward by a huge amount. the nose is too close to my boot. on snow, itsa verry nice-ah.

[Michael Pukas]

I would think the duckbill would reduce the effect of force multiplication rather than increase it (by dispersing the load away from the foremost axle connector and effectively stiffening the board the plate is mounted to once the bill makes contact with the deck) thus preventing the board from over-flexing at a single point. It seems designed to counteract the effects of force multiplication by distributing the additional power over a greater area.

The duckbill doesn't really contact the board - some device(s) needs to be installed between the bottom of the buckbill and the top of the board - i.e. bumpers. And even then the bumpers may not be in constant contact with the board - the board may need to bend to touch the bottom of the bumpers. Installing a bumper(s) only introduces a new point load(s) - the force of the plate is not spread out over a larger surface area of the board, only distributed to the points where the bumpers are. You could, in theory, install 4 or 6 or 8 bumpers, and then you're starting to distribute the load over a larger area, but you're also increasing the upward stress on the plate further, which it isn't really designed to withstand. You can still fold the nose of a non-plate-specific board around the foremost point if you load the nose too much.

Personal preference and opinion here, but I think it's much better to have a board designed to be ridden with a plate than to have a plate with a duckbill trying to modify the flex of a board (as much as I LOVE the look of the duckbill).

[Corey]

Disclaimer: I haven't ridden any plate yet, or even been on snow since March...

It seems to me that any plate with a duckbil will act like an 'isolator' plate right up until the board bends enough to contact the duckbill, then it becomes a hybrid of a 'flex modifier' and an 'isolator'. Knowing that board makers are now making boards stiffer near the front foot to better cope with the forces that an isolator plate can generate, it only makes sense that a duckbill-style plate may help to reduce the chances of a nose folding on an older board without the stiffer front section.

Once that duckbill (or the foam/rubber/whatever under it) touches the topsheet there are 3 points of contact: The bill/foam/rubber, the front pivot/slider, and the rear pivot. With a non-duckbill 'isolator' plate you only ever have 2 points of contact.

I'm just excited to get on snow and try any kind of plate!

[lowrider]

A plate on any board will be enjoyed!:) If you have 3 boards a plate will make it 6. It's a quiver multiplier.

[Corey]

Works great, right up to the point where the plate fails.

Sarcasm: But what if the plate maker had the foresight to realize that it just might contact the board and make it strong/flexible enough to withstand the forces? It's not like it'll bend into a tighter radius than the other fiberglass/metal/wood structure that it rides on top of, and they seem to stay together pretty well.

[Michael Pukas]

Sarcasm: But what if the plate maker had the foresight to realize that it just might contact the board and make it strong/flexible enough to withstand the forces? It's not like it'll bend into a tighter radius than the other fiberglass/metal/wood structure that it rides on top of, and they seem to stay together pretty well.

Boards are designed to bend; plates are designed to not bend.

[lowrider]

"Boards are designed to bend". Some plates are made to bend at the front "SGP".

[Algunderfoot]

Bryan you should get a kick outa this pic from a poster I saw last week in the Hoenhaus Hotel in Hintertux (Tirol) Austria.

What's your guess circa 1978? Nice clean Plate and a tip / tail split board.....to soon for the times I think...

[Michael Pukas]

"Boards are designed to bend". Some plates are made to bend at the front "SGP".

I stand corrected - the plates that I'm familiar with are designed to not bend - but some bending will happen as it nearly impossile to make it completely rigid, and some degree of bending may be desired. In general they are not designed to bend with the upward force of the board. Don't know anything about the SGP yet... that's a big challenge to have a plate that does not bend between the feet but does bend in the duckbill.

[pokkis]

Bryan you should get a kick outa this pic from a poster I saw last week in the Hoenhaus Hotel in Hintertux (Tirol) Austria.

What's your guess circa 1978? Nice clean Plate and a tip / tail split board.....to soon for the times I think...

I was also on plate some decades ago on this kind board :)

[queequeg]

Incorrect. If you have a long nose extension with a bumper that contacts the nose, it "loads" more pressure on the nose driving it into the snow surface with more force.

Think Snow!

That's exactly what I'm saying ... so instead of all the force being applied in a single location (the front axle) it is being distributed between the front axle *and* the duckbill's point of contact.

I'd rather have my foot stepped on by a 250lb dude in sneakers, than a 90 lb supermodel in high heels. The latter is more likely to put a hole in your foot because the forces she exerts are being concentrated on a single tiny point.

The duckbill doesn't really contact the board - some device(s) needs to be installed between the bottom of the buckbill and the top of the board - i.e. bumpers.

Are you certain about this?

The duckbill may be suspended above the board, while the board is not turning, but my understanding is that when the board is de-cambered sigificantly (eg, during a hard turn) that it does come in contact with the board, and that some riders put material beneath the bill to adjust just how far the board has to decamber before the bill contacts the board (as well as to dampen the impact). The duckbill would seem fairly pointless if it never actually comes in contact with the deck. The rider reports I have heard indicate that during a turn, the duckbill pressures the topsheet of the deck: that is what I am talking about in terms of force distribution.

And I agree with you - I would much prefer a board whose flex pattern is designed to work with a plate, over a plate that tries to compensate for the board being too soft in the shovel ... but with regard to looks: I think the duckbill looks totally weird - I much prefer the look of the Bomber Plate and the Donek plate.

[Michael Pukas]

Are you certain about this?

The duckbill may be suspended above the board, while the board is not turning, but my understanding is that when the board is de-cambered sigificantly (eg, during a hard turn) that it does come in contact with the board, and that some riders put material beneath the bill to adjust just how far the board has to decamber before the bill contacts the board (as well as to dampen the impact). The duckbill would seem fairly pointless if it never actually comes in contact with the deck. The rider reports I have heard indicate that during a turn, the duckbill pressures the topsheet of the deck: that is what I am talking about in terms of force distribution.

We're saying the same thing - the duckbill itself does not contact the board - it floats above the board. Some device needs to be installed between the duckbill and the board to engage the two, otherwise the board will not come in contact with the duckbill, unless bent to an extreme.

And I agree with you - adding just one bumper will spread the load between two points rather than just one under the front pivot. But again, there's going to be a new point load at the bumper where the nose can fold around - a bit; and the plate now has an upward force applied to it that it may not be deisgned to accept, hence possible failure.

So let's say you design a plate with a duckbill that is designed to flex - how much do you allow it to flex? Having multiple points for variable bumper placement is easy. Do you have different flexing duckbills to compensate for different board flexes? And do you then couple that with different stiffnesses between the feet for different rider preferences? Many many variable yet to be R&D'ed. I'm curious to see where this goes in the long run... Is there going to be one camp with duckbills and one without? Is there going to be one camp that likes ultra-stiff plates and one that likes plates with some flex?

but with regard to looks: I think the duckbill looks totally weird - I much prefer the look of the Bomber Plate and the Donek plate.

Wait 'till you see the final Bomber Boiler Plate! So sexy!!! And Sean's plate looks so sweet too - espeically with the blue anodized hardware!

[Corey]

Michael and Mark:

Have you seen the Apex plate? It's clearly designed to contact the topsheet, whether there is a bumper there or not to change the engagement point/initial stiffness. lowrider has posted some pictures of the SGP plate as well. I haven't heard of any failures of the Apex plate. The SGP plate is an unknown as its development has been hidden from BomberOnline so far.

[Jack M]

I wonder if that dude on the Swingbo is about to eat s*** or if he was really that good. If the latter, my hat is off to him.

[kieran]

I wonder if that dude on the Swingbo is about to eat s*** or if he was really that good. If the latter, my hat is off to him.

neon yellow onesy with matching glasses. hopefully the former.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan you should get a kick outa this pic from a poster I saw last week in the Hoenhaus Hotel in Hintertux (Tirol) Austria.

What's your guess circa 1978? Nice clean Plate and a tip / tail split board.....to soon for the times I think...

WOW!! Thanks Al, I had not seen that before. It looks like it should be rotated? Very impressive, Thanks. I guess I have to get one out and try to re-create that , NOT

[110/220V]

>:^o Apexinside...get Off Computer And Produce The Sport Plat!!

[Apex Insider]

I guess I better jump back in here because there seems to be a lot of assumptions being made about our design.

The duckbill on the Apex plate is not intended to alter or interfere with the flex of the snowboard. In normal GS turns, it does not contact the snowboard. The majority of the Canadian racers last year rode the plate naked. Well, they did wear clothes but did not place any kind of bumper under the plate's bill. This season, you may see more racers adding a dampening bumper but I suspect that has more to do with mimicking Jasey Jay Anderson's setup than anything else.

Having the duckbill act as a dampening spring is strictly an option. Michael Pukas is right - without a bumper in between, the duckbill does not contact the snowboard unless there is a major deflection. For weekend warriors like us, messing around with bumpers under the duckbill is probably not a good idea. We just don't have the sensitivity and experience to tune it properly. Jasey would finish a run, wet his finger, stick it in the air and declare that he needed a slightly softer bumper for the next run. Us mortals would just be guessing.

This is where I have to bail on this thread. Keeping up is killing my day. Feel free to call or email with specific questions.

110/220v - you posted as I was typing this. I'm going back to the lab now.

Cheers.

P.S. One thing I forgot to add - when we talk about flex, it is not just the ability to bend fore and aft that comes into play. Just like a snowboard, torsional rigidity is a big factor in the "feel" department.

[queequeg]

The duckbill on the Apex plate is not intended to alter or interfere with the flex of the snowboard. In normal GS turns, it does not contact the snowboard. The majority of the Canadian racers last year rode the plate naked. Well, they did wear clothes but did not place any kind of bumper under the plate's bill. This season, you may see more racers adding a dampening bumper but I suspect that has more to do with mimicking Jasey Jay Anderson's setup than anything else.

Doh! You guys win! Mike and Mark - you guys are true gentlemen. It's always fun exchanging ideas with you.

So the bill only comes into play under extreme circumstances then, but in those circumstances it is meant to deflect/distribute the load?

The majority of the Canadian racers last year rode the plate naked.

Well I guess that's one way to improve the visibility of our little sport!

[Corey]

Cool, thanks for the info on the Apex. I stand corrected.

[Michael Pukas]

Thanks for the clarification AI - much appreciated! I had heard that Jasey Jay was fiddling with his plate after every run - for a long time I couldn't understand what he could be fiddling with. Then I naively assumed it must be the position and durometer of the bumpers, or something like that.

[scrutton]

Keep the info coming...just scanned through all 24 pages. We so need a new thread "Plate specific - Heard in the lift line".

I think I'll snag one before the end of the season. Looking forward to hearing some reviews of the Boiler Plate.

[Donek]

I think I recall a question awhile back about the use of a plate in slalom. I photographed some of the Slalom event on Friday. Here are a few shots of the plates these guys are using right now.

Apex

Tinkler

same plate from the side

Hangl

Not sure

Trappy on a Bomber plate:

maybe VIST

This looks familiar

There are a lot more action photos here: http://donek.smugmug.com/Sports/Snowboard-and-Ski/Copper-Race-to-the-Cup-2010/14736261_6pUqP

There are some photos of the after race party on our facebook page:

http://facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000404736812

[colintkemp]

Thanks Sean.

Having checked out your photos, it seems the real question now is - who was NOT on plates...

To my layman's eye, it looks like the Tinkler plate has a "base" (i.e., under the plate) similar to Hangl.