Riding moguls

[Ladia]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls? What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.

[Sultan Guy]

Moguls...

You have to shift your weight front and back really fast, kind of like dancing or something. I can do it with some semblance of style but my legs get exhausted fast.

[RCrobar]

Hi Ladia

I asked a similar question in 2004, check out this past thread for some very interesting information:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3832&highlight=moguls

Hope this helps.

Rob

[queequeg]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls? What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.

I'm not super great at moguls but I got a lot better at them last season. I do the following, though I think this is the "easy way" of doing it - it has worked for me at low-to moderate speeds, on relatively easy mogul trails (but we're talking actual moguls here, not just little bumps). I have not had much luck with it on steep mogul runs ... I imagine a different technique or larger gonads are required there. One run and I'm done!

1. Ride straight up the mogul with my weight somewhat forward, sucking my legs up under me, such that my upper body does not rise with the board.

2. Turn when you reach the top of the mogul (or start just before). Point it at the next mogul you want to ride up, to the left or to the right of where you are. This is easy because your nose and tail are up in the air, so the board is free to rotate very easily. It is important to keep your weight forward, so that when you are on the top of the mogul your tail remains free - and so that you don't get hung up on it as you begin to descend.

3. Continue down the other side of the mogul, extending your legs and scraping the backside of the mogul somewhat with your uphill edge to control your descent (since your board is oriented somewhat sideways now) and prepare to make for the next mogul, keeping your weight forward.

4. Ride up the next mogul and repeat.

YMMV ... I just know this method got me started nicely.

[photodad2001]

Short board, narrow stance.

[slopetool]

I ride more bumps now than ever. All mountain board for me works best. Not to get off topic but remember the euro guy in Snowboarders In Exile that was the mogul champion? Moguls used to be a competitive sport in snowboarding! And this guy could bang the hell out of them. Auther Auey? something like that. Thank, God that phase is over. Steep groomers are the way to go! or mellow groomers very very fast.

[Loc]

Just do it like this:

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[bumpyride]

For my son and I, we use a short and stiff all mountain carver. One that has plenty of pop to jet you to the next bump. For us, the slimmer the waist the less leverage that works against you when you come off the side of the bumps. You can't carve around them unless you are going very slowly and so the livelier, thinner boards are much more adept at a faster turnover rate going down.

The stiffer boards (and still lively) set an edge and initiate the next turn much easier. You don't have to worry about washing out on the face of the bump. I try to push the tip down the face after each turn. I also try and emulate the same motions as a bump skier, although that falls apart on steep faces.

We try to keep the shoulders perpendicular to the fall line. If your shoulders turn out of the fall line, all of a sudden you have your back facing down the hill on the toe side turn, so quick short turns are de rigueur if you don't want to catch the death edge.

We're using Burton Ultraprimes as they seem to be the best for us. 156 or 162 and I'm weighing in at 150 and 5'9" and son is 160 and 5'9". Both very fit and relatively strong, he much more than me. The boards excel at coming off the bump and making your turn in the air, which keeps the tail from catching. Once your tail catches, you have a problem especially if you're deep in the trough.

We're both using a 15 to 18 degree difference between the front and rear bindings. Me 66-45, my son 54-39. With the difference we're able to swing the board with more leverage, and also have a stable platform fore and aft, and side to side.

We turn at all different spots on the bumps, from the top to the face to the trough.

Hope this wets your appetite.

[jpenn]

Bumps are where it's at. There is nothing like hitting Stowe or Sugarbush late in the season, when the groomers are running over 2% of the terrain and everything - especially the steeps like Star, Goat, Steins, or Ripcord are full of bumps the size of volkswagons and the snow is soft and forgiving. Moguls are like a giant terrain park with a thousand features and every time you ride through it, there's a new line to try. Personally, I put away the hardboots for this just because I feel more comfortable with my softies. Balance is key - a snowboarder's center of gravity should be just like a good mogul skier's - very little movement, which can be tricky if you find yourself setting hard turns.

Right now, CT has had very little snow. Our local mountain has a mogul run but the bumps are very hard and icy in between. Natural snow helps a lot, warm weather does, too. You guys near areas with large snowfalls are sooo lucky. Soft bumps all the time!

[ncermak]

strive to keep the board on the snow, and remain balanced. Push the nose down the face of the mogul. use the terrain, dno;t try just to ride the valleys or the peaks. ride some of each. Play in them. Some will make for nice banked turns, others you may have to go over. Stay light on your feet, and stay out of the back seat...thats when you'll get bounced around.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Forget about carving, think more about setting edges. Practice on a steep-ish groomed pitch doing short edge-setting turns. If you can keep your weight forward, pressuring the nose and picking up the tail as you switch edges, that's a good drill.

In the bumps, remember the fall-line is your friend. Try to find a smaller set with wide spacing to get the feel for them before tackling the close-set monsters.

[D.T.]

keep your weight forward, pressuring the nose and picking up the tail as you switch edges

that is the technique I use to ride my 192cm Tanker in the bumps and steeps

inkaholic does something similar on his 200cm Tanker

[BigBump]

Picking the tail up and swinging it to change edges, IMO, is really not a great method in bumps or steeps. First, keeping so much pressure on the nose means you lose the ability to unweight it to absorb bumps and on steeps you can't control your speed until the tail is back on the snow.

For bumps, I agree with Mr. Cermak. Stay centered so you can move your weight around as necessary, keep your legs loose, and strive to keep the whole board in contact with the snow. Look for opportunities to slow down, like banked turns or the sides of larger bumps. Also, if you get going too fast, go into a traverse until you are back in control.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Picking the tail up and swinging it to change edges, IMO, is really not a great method in bumps or steeps. First, keeping so much pressure on the nose means you lose the ability to unweight it to absorb bumps and on steeps you can't control your speed until the tail is back on the snow.

It's not the end goal, it's just a good drill for people new to bumps. The idea is to not get in the back seat and to drill some good quick edge changes.

[MaineBomber]

I have been riding, or at least attempting to ride bumps for many years. Being the only boarder and hanging with a bunch of skiers you get forced into it. Bumps can be fun if there are not too troughed out or ice. If they are still somewhat rounded I agree with earlier postes, you turn on the back side rather then the front(like skiers). I ride a 167 Arbor, yep plates and hardboots on a twin tip. You have to be able to turn like hell, the faster you can turn the steeper a slope you can control. I think the hardboots help with the added support when you plow into the next bump.

I would not use a freestyle board, too soft, no set back, you end up going over frontwards when pushing the board. I would think a true alpine board would be too stiff and not want to turn quick enough.

If you have the cans for it grap a Tanker and just point it!

I don't think even the best bump boarder would ever look as good as a OK bump skier. Its just not possible with the foot stance.

2 bump runs and you are pretty much wasted for the day.

Pray for POWDER.

[bumpyride]

I have been riding, or at least attempting to ride bumps for many years. Being the only boarder and hanging with a bunch of skiers you get forced into it. Bumps can be fun if there are not too troughed out or ice. If they are still somewhat rounded I agree with earlier postes, you turn on the back side rather then the front(like skiers). I ride a 167 Arbor, yep plates and hardboots on a twin tip. You have to be able to turn like hell, the faster you can turn the steeper a slope you can control. I think the hardboots help with the added support when you plow into the next bump.

I would not use a freestyle board, too soft, no set back, you end up going over frontwards when pushing the board. I would think a true alpine board would be too stiff and not want to turn quick enough.

If you have the cans for it grap a Tanker and just point it!

I don't think even the best bump boarder would ever look as good as a OK bump skier. Its just not possible with the foot stance.

2 bump runs and you are pretty much wasted for the day.

Pray for POWDER.

Actually we run bump runs all day long if possible. The better you get, the easier it is.

I know that a good bump boarder can look as good as a decent skier, but it does seem to fall apart when it gets to be a double black (west coast blacks). Wouldn't ever say that a boarder could look as good as the pro skiers, but then who can except pro skiers.

Foot position for carving would be tough. Modified angles with 15 to 20 degrees difference between front and back make a whole lot of difference.

A racing stiff, damp board (IMO) is not that good, but a lively all mountain carver is terrific.

What all the posts are saying is that everyone has their own way of handling bumps. It is all in what you get used to and what suits your style.

Not picking on anyone, just trying to open the field up to experimentation.

[shawndoggy]

I've tried and tried. It's just way more fun to ride steep bumps like that on a softie board with lots of tail swinging.

Ladia you ever ride Squaw on Sundays? Would love to hook up. My kids (10 and 13) only want to ski bumps now so it's KT, Broken Arrow, Silverado, and Granite Chief for us. I'll confess I've wussed out a bit and put the skis on in the afternoon, but with another boarder there it'd be fun to give a go.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like to ride lower angles in general (45 or so) and have never tried steeper, but I speculate that steep angles would make it harder to get the board back and forth quickly when needed. My Coiler AM works very well in bumps. I have used a 164 cm freeride (Asym Air), a 169 Prior 4WD and a 200 cm Tanker. I like the Coiler the best, followed by the Prior, then the Asym Air and last the Tanker. I can make the Tanker work in intermediate bumps but really wouldn't want to try it in anything tough. I find the narrower AM boards work better than the wider freeride. The Prior was an older one with a straight tail, the upturned tail on the AM works better.

[OhD]

Every time you break contact with the snow you have to re-establish it, and that usually entails some bounce and chatter, especially on heelside where you lose some flex and damping in the ankle.

If you try to keep the nose pressed all the time, the tail can be skidded around more readily. If the tail lifts off the snow, it's easier to re-establish contact and effective edging smoothly if the nose (and preferably at least the forward third) of the board stays in contact.

You aren't going to be carving much unless you want to make large turns over several bumps at a turn and doing a LOT of flexion/extension to maintain contact. It can be done, but it's not pretty unless you are very selective about your line.

You can exploit the energy stored in the board if you get your speed and turn size matched to the natural frequency of combination of your mass and the board stiffness. Think mini-trampoline. This will not always be useful, but when the pitch and bump size are right it is great fun and very efficient. Usually mogul runs are too steep and the bumps too big for the frequencies to match (for we mere mortals).

The uphill sides of bumps are lower pitch than the downhill side, and the downhill side is often undercut, so you don't want to be skidding on the downhill side. Generally the easiest line is skidding on the uphill side of each bump with the nose pointed toward the next one downhill, turning the board so it is parallel to the fall line just about as you go over the pass to the next hole. Do most of the riding on the uphill quadrants - if the fall line runs south, stay on the NE and NW quadrants of the bumps, and pass through the saddles just as you change edges.

Turning on top of each bump makes the turning easy, but about all you can do to effect it is pivot the board relative to your body, since the only edge on the snow is between your feet. Then you have to get down off the top, which will certainly entail accelerating, and if you go down the backside it may entail dropping off the undercut.

Keep the upper body quiet and facing downhill to the extent your stance permits. This is easier on an alpine setup - on softies you sacrifice a lot of lateral stiffness when you ride high angles, so you're better off keeping your shoulders at a fairly constant angle to the fall line rather than square. The important thing is to not let the body pivot (or, to use the aeronautical term, "yaw") as much as the board does. Use the rotational inertia of the body as a reference about which you can pivot the board either direction, rather than using the board to power the considerable effort of turning the body back and forth. A still upper body also makes it a lot easier on your vision and equilibrium. Keep your hands still and well spread in a neutral position from which you can move them to adjust balance if you must. Lean your body downhill if anything - that moves your hips uphill and increases your edge angle.

Be a little aggressive - better to take each turn with a little more than you really need than with a little less.

Soft forward flex in your boots is critical. You have to be able to bend your knees and ankles easily to absorb bumps without your body bouncing up and down. You always want enough knee bend to allow you to extend 4-6" to recover from an undercut or a bit of ice. Stay loose and flexible but try to keep a little margin for movement available in every respect - use it if you need it and get it back in hand ASAP 'cuz you're probably going to need it again.

Learn to exploit the pile of soft scrapings as a safe place to get some speed checking without tripping on them.

Go ride 'em.

[bumpyride]

Every time you break contact with the snow you have to re-establish it, and that usually entails some bounce and chatter, especially on heelside where you lose some flex and damping in the ankle.

If you try to keep the nose pressed all the time, the tail can be skidded around more readily. If the tail lifts off the snow, it's easier to re-establish contact and effective edging smoothly if the nose (and preferably at least the forward third) of the board stays in contact.

You aren't going to be carving much unless you want to make large turns over several bumps at a turn and doing a LOT of flexion/extension to maintain contact. It can be done, but it's not pretty unless you are very selective about your line.

You can exploit the energy stored in the board if you get your speed and turn size matched to the natural frequency of combination of your mass and the board stiffness. Think mini-trampoline. This will not always be useful, but when the pitch and bump size are right it is great fun and very efficient. Usually mogul runs are too steep and the bumps too big for the frequencies to match (for we mere mortals).

The uphill sides of bumps are lower pitch than the downhill side, and the downhill side is often undercut, so you don't want to be skidding on the downhill side. Generally the easiest line is skidding on the uphill side of each bump with the nose pointed toward the next one downhill, turning the board so it is parallel to the fall line just about as you go over the pass to the next hole. Do most of the riding on the uphill quadrants - if the fall line runs south, stay on the NE and NW quadrants of the bumps, and pass through the saddles just as you change edges.

Turning on top of each bump makes the turning easy, but about all you can do to effect it is pivot the board relative to your body, since the only edge on the snow is between your feet. Then you have to get down off the top, which will certainly entail accelerating, and if you go down the backside it may entail dropping off the undercut.

Keep the upper body quiet and facing downhill to the extent your stance permits. This is easier on an alpine setup - on softies you sacrifice a lot of lateral stiffness when you ride high angles, so you're better off keeping your shoulders at a fairly constant angle to the fall line rather than square. The important thing is to not let the body pivot (or, to use the aeronautical term, "yaw") as much as the board does. Use the rotational inertia of the body as a reference about which you can pivot the board either direction, rather than using the board to power the considerable effort of turning the body back and forth. A still upper body also makes it a lot easier on your vision and equilibrium. Keep your hands still and well spread in a neutral position from which you can move them to adjust balance if you must. Lean your body downhill if anything - that moves your hips uphill and increases your edge angle.

Be a little aggressive - better to take each turn with a little more than you really need than with a little less.

Soft forward flex in your boots is critical. You have to be able to bend your knees and ankles easily to absorb bumps without your body bouncing up and down. You always want enough knee bend to allow you to extend 4-6" to recover from an undercut or a bit of ice. Stay loose and flexible but try to keep a little margin for movement available in every respect - use it if you need it and get it back in hand ASAP 'cuz you're probably going to need it again.

Learn to exploit the pile of soft scrapings as a safe place to get some speed checking without tripping on them.

Go ride 'em.

Nicely done.

Soft forward flex point: We always ride bumps in "The walk mode" to allow full extension of the knees. A soft BTS may be what works best for you, but it is imperative that you be able to move both knees to absorb the bumps (extension/contraction). Stiff boot/stiff bindings make bumps very unpleasant. That is not to say that hard boots and plates can be any less than remarkable on bumps, but full on race gear and and very stiff boots don't go hand in hand with bumps.

[OhD]

Hey bumpyride

Thanks for the compliment. You are right on about the boots. I put BTS on my Heads last year and love them. More travel, softer flex and no hard stops when I get to the end of the travel - or none I've felt yet. I suppose if I ever really kick them hard I'll bottom out the springs, but it hasn't happened yet. I've read warnings here about riding in walk mode being dangerous - likely to bust your boots - but never had it happen. The travel on the stock Heads is just too short and the stops too abrupt for me, though.

I see you're in Tacoma. I'm in the fourth Tri City and ride White Pass most of the time. Haven't made the trek to Crystal in over 20 years - we quit going there when we lived in Seattle 'cuz it had gotten so crowded that ten runs was a really good day. White Pass can get pretty clogged up on weekends, but not usually. Get in touch if you want to come over sometime. I belong to a co-op ski club at the pass and would be happy to host you for a night there if you want to make the drive worthwhile.

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis

[bumpyride]

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis

I believe you have to go back to your profile and allow messages to be sent when people visit the profile. I'm in there.

[Cindy Kleh]

Skiers look better than snowboarders in the bumps? Not necessarily. Most riders avoid them, so they don't look good when they get in them. I know of many local riders who look smooth as butter down long bump runs at Mary Jane.

Start out in bumps on a powder day or slush. It's more forgiving and will give you confidence.

[b0ardski]

I ski bumps on a snowboard.

Learning to use the side of the bumps as a banked turn is key to controling speed. This is easier to practice on larger, softer(pow or slush) bumps that don't have too deep and abrupt troughs. When they get refrozen hard, save your ankles for another day.

Still upper body is important to allow exaggerated flexion/extension to keep as much edge on the snow as possible.

Slow & in control is my motto:biggthump

A mental trick that helped me to flow thru the bumps like a good skier, think "flow like water" in a winding stream rolling up the side of a bank and flowing back down & up the other side.

All that said, I cheat. I didn't like bumps much on 1 plank untill I started using poles. That gave me the upper body stability I missed from skiing bumps and allowed me lots of exaggerated board movement while keeping the head & shoulders quiet and facing the falline.

[bumpyride]

Hey bumpyride

Thanks for the compliment. You are right on about the boots. I put BTS on my Heads last year and love them. More travel, softer flex and no hard stops when I get to the end of the travel - or none I've felt yet. I suppose if I ever really kick them hard I'll bottom out the springs, but it hasn't happened yet. I've read warnings here about riding in walk mode being dangerous - likely to bust your boots - but never had it happen. The travel on the stock Heads is just too short and the stops too abrupt for me, though.

I see you're in Tacoma. I'm in the fourth Tri City and ride White Pass most of the time. Haven't made the trek to Crystal in over 20 years - we quit going there when we lived in Seattle 'cuz it had gotten so crowded that ten runs was a really good day. White Pass can get pretty clogged up on weekends, but not usually. Get in touch if you want to come over sometime. I belong to a co-op ski club at the pass and would be happy to host you for a night there if you want to make the drive worthwhile.

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis

I will keep this is mind. Seems as though I have a mid-week pass for White Pass. Been there, and it was fun. I haven't been there since the expansion and am interested in how that opened up the hills. Keep in touch and you can do a private email from my profile.

CYA