Another: "He turned right in front of me!" post

[photodad2001]

I see by your quote that you started at age 40. How long have you been riding? There was a guy out yesterday that was in his 60's. Also I have a friend who windsurfs that just turned 81. He started with his son back in the 80's so he started sometime in his 50's and is still going strong. That's the key to long life, living like you are young.

[queequeg]

If your not looking behind you (uphill) your as much of a problem as someone straighlining the run. If I was to make a quick turn and was hit from behind I'd blame myself as much as the uphill rider, just because I'm downhill it doesn't give me the right to cut someone off.

I do not generally look uphill from me while carving unless I suddenly find myself in the midst of a pack of unknown skiers/riders, at which point I am usually looking uphill with the intention of stopping and letting the pack go by. Sometimes I will look every now and again on crowded days, but very rarely. If you are looking uphill, that means you are taking your eyes off of downhill traffic, and I don't want to be held responsible for ramming into someone downhill from me because I was looking uphill.

[photodad2001]

I am not sure how being able to look up hill translates to lollygagging, but it might in your riding. Please stop advocating not looking uphill. It is dangerous.

Why don't you come ride with me and see if you can hang. :rolleyes:

"I do not generally look uphill from me while carving unless I suddenly find myself in the midst of a pack of unknown skiers/riders, at which point I am usually looking uphill with the intention of stopping and letting the pack go by. Sometimes I will look every now and again on crowded days, but very rarely. If you are looking uphill, that means you are taking your eyes off of downhill traffic, and I don't want to be held responsible for ramming into someone downhill from me because I was looking uphill."

__________________

-queequeg

[bumpyride]

Legal definition of negligence.

www.medlaw1.com/Negligence

Conduct that falls below the standards of behavior established by law for the protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm. A person has acted negligently if he or she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances.

In order to establish negligence as a Cause of Action under the law of torts, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant had a duty to the plaintiff, the defendant breached that duty by failing to conform to the required standard of conduct, the defendant's negligent conduct was the cause of the harm to the plaintiff, and the plaintiff was, in fact, harmed or damaged.

Here's the can of worms. If carvers only represent a very small if not insignificant percentage (calculate 5000/2 = .0004%) which is about what was at Crystal yesterday, how can the ordinary skier/snowboarder ever expect to have slopewide turns materialize in front of them. This is not the expected standard on the ski slope.

We as carvers do no conform to the norms.

Are we in fact Negligent?

[bumpyride]

I started at 45 and that was 15 years ago.

Still hitting it hard, very hard.

[bumpyride]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/trainfire.asp

[photodad2001]

Legal definition of negligence.

www.medlaw1.com/Negligence

Conduct that falls below the standards of behavior established by law for the protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm. A person has acted negligently if he or she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances.

In order to establish negligence as a Cause of Action under the law of torts, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant had a duty to the plaintiff, the defendant breached that duty by failing to conform to the required standard of conduct, the defendant's negligent conduct was the cause of the harm to the plaintiff, and the plaintiff was, in fact, harmed or damaged.

Here's the can of worms. If carvers only represent a very small if not insignificant percentage (calculate 5000/2 = .0004%) which is about what was at Crystal yesterday, how can the ordinary skier/snowboarder ever expect to have slopewide turns materialize in front of them. This is not the expected standard on the ski slope.

We as carvers do no conform to the norms.

Are we in fact Negligent?

Hardboot snowboarders are not the only ones cutting cross slope. Many skiers are now riding with more side to side motion and a lot of the softbooters are picking this up as well. Then there are even beginers, (of course this is on the green and blues) whenever I see lessons going on there is a train of skiers crossing side to side in wedge mode. Our motions are the same, maybe exagerated and faster, but still the same as I'm going to say nearly 30% of the riders at my hill ride with a cross slope style. It's the style of riding in question not the gear. Next time you're out and you're taking a break count the total number of riders to come down one of the "average" slopes, then count the number of people who cut cross slope while coming down, not just hardboot carvers. I would wager there's more than a .0004%. My daughter wasn't diggin' in and barrelling across the slope (not yet anyway).

[carvedog]

The responsibility to avoid downslope riders always, always lies with the uphill rider.

If you don't have enough clearance to avoid someone who makes a quick turn or stops suddenly cuz they dropped their lip balm, you are following/passing too close.

That said - I look uphill a lot. Similar to Buell every few turns just as I coming on toeside. And it's not a "look" up the hill for me as much as a quick flick of the eyes. Almost peripherally sometimes just to make sure and cha, cha, cha.

We do get those glorious moments and times when no one is on the slope anywhere at all. On one run - Broadway Face - you can see the entire pitch and the cat road back for almost a half mile - that is the only one that leads to the run.

I sit and listen to music until all is clear. I praise God for allowing me to be on an abandoned slope with the perfect tool and then without worrying or looking up hill I create "The Trench". The kid swallower. The one that will be there all afternoon. The one that bad skiers will complain about.

Praise Jah.

[DiveBomber]

if im ahead of people, I make a few smaller turns so people around me get the idea before I make make bigger turns

[OhD]

Right of way has to be simple and unambiguous, or people will get confused and make bad decisions. This was thought through when the Skiers Responsibility Code was formulated and adopted by the NSAA (http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/heads_up/know_the_code.asp).

The first four rules, printed on the lift tickets and signage at most member resorts, are simple and unambiguous:

1. Always stay in control.
   
2. People ahead of you have the right of way.
   
3. Stop in a safe place for you and others.
   
4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.

There is nothing conditional about any of these. They are generally couched in the agreement for use of the facilities. Buying a ticket legally implies that you agree to abide by these rules.

If you air blind off a roller in a run, you are out of control from the moment you leave the ground until you have landed and can avoid anything that might be in your path. If you hit someone who's parked, fallen or cruising slowly below the roller, you are at fault if only because you violated two rules to their one. They are violating #3 if just sitting there (and I, for one, make a point of stopping and warning folks I find doing so - just let them know they aren't visible from above and might be in danger - that usually gets them moving) but the uphill party has no way to know WHY they are there so has no justification for hitting them on the basis that they were at fault.

If you hit someone ahead who's just cruising down the hill, visible, under control and already in the same run, there's no excuse at all.

Riding across a slope is violating none of these rules, as long as you aren't entering the run from the side (from another run, cat-track, or just from a stop at the edge or in the trees), in which case #4 would apply.

A lift line should be a safe place to stop. Anyone making it unsafe should be banished by the management, or if they won't, by local law enforcement. A citizen's arrest would be entirely justifiable, IMHO, in the case of a collision.

[Corey]

Right of way has to be simple and unambiguous, or people will get confused and make bad decisions.

100% agree. It can't be negotiable or it'll get twisted.

I check uphill every now and then and try to leave runout room between myself and the edge of the trail. I also look forward more than staring in the rear view mirror while driving a car, even though I may someday get killed by a semi rear-ending me.

[DiveBomber]

I think some of you are naive, you can blame who ever you want, but if you get hit due to being unaware, YOU'RE the one thats going to be feeling the pain.

In aviation you are suppose to look before you turn, wont make much difference after you're a ball of fire falling out of the sky, no?

can you guys stop beating a dead horse??

[SteveInOregon]

Sound stupid, well I not talking about installing a rear video cam for pete sake like an RV, lol.

I am just trying it out now, I am a road cyclist and love to have my little round rear view mirror clamped on my cycle hat when I road ride, and I use it when I walk the forest hunting so I can watch any deer that try to sneak across the path I already passed and any cougar that are "stalking" me.

I "have" spotted deer and small game behind me with my cyclist clip on mirror.

I will see if it can cross over to carving & boarding in general

I am gonna try it on my helmet to see if I can actually take a quick glance thru it , thru the goggles to "Check 6" while I practice norm carves, I doubt it will work but here goes nothing.

[photodad2001]

I think some of you are naive, you can blame who ever you want, but if you get hit due to being unaware, YOU'RE the one thats going to be feeling the pain.

In aviation you are suppose to look before you turn, wont make much difference after you're a ball of fire falling out of the sky, no?

can you guys stop beating a dead horse??

I think what you really mean is, "I can't believe so many of you are agreeing with photodad! He's supposed to always be wrong and whatever he says everyone should say the opposite! Come on guys! Get with the program!" and "let's end this before more people agree with him and start giving him credibility around here!":AR15firin:AR15firin:AR15firin

[Buell]

"I do not generally look uphill from me while carving unless I suddenly find myself in the midst of a pack of unknown skiers/riders, at which point I am usually looking uphill with the intention of stopping and letting the pack go by. Sometimes I will look every now and again on crowded days, but very rarely. If you are looking uphill, that means you are taking your eyes off of downhill traffic, and I don't want to be held responsible for ramming into someone downhill from me because I was looking uphill."

__________________

-queequeg

So you found someone else who agrees with you photodad? I have no shortage of strong riders who agree with me, what is your point.

That does not change the fact that if you are unable to look uphill to check for straightliners you are riding beyond your ability and you are taking a significant risk. If you are afraid of hitting someone because you are glancing uphill, maybe you should give other riders more room.

Carvers get hit by straightliners, bottom line. As much as we like to cite them, the rules don't matter much in a resort and you need to take some responsibility for protecting yourself.

[Buell]

I think what you really mean is, "I can't believe so many of you are agreeing with photodad! He's supposed to always be wrong and whatever he says everyone should say the opposite! Come on guys! Get with the program!" and "let's end this before more people agree with him and start giving him credibility around here!":AR15firin:AR15firin:AR15firin

You are delusional, but you enjoy it. :rolleyes:

I know this and have avoided engaging you for a while now, but this is too much.

I have come around to Bob's recent rants about people who post when they don't know what they are talking about.

Let's help other riders, not fill their heads with crap.

[Loc]

I sure hope some of you guys glance at your mirrors when driving. I like to know who's behind me...

[docrob]

Have carvers ever considered as a group wearing something of e.g. a certain dayglo that the masses will learn to identify, and which could be flagged up at the resorts until the public learn it?

Stunning Videos to music maybe (provided free by the carving community), making them aware of how carvers use the slope; e.g. in the cafe or wherever. ..Could end up with more folk carving, cheaper kit, better grooming, and more specialist venues.

They've had a deal of success in the UK making 4 wheel drivers aware of motorcyclists with posters reminding drivers to look out for us/ reminding them that we will often rapidly be in and out of (or dead in), their zone of influence before they are aware of it. If their brains are already primed, and there is a public acceptance of the vulnerability of carvers, and carvers are easy to spot, maybe things would improve.

[philw]

You're still assuming that the people above you are: (a) looking for you; (b) expecting you to veer in front of them; and © capable of doing anything about it.

I cycle enough in London. My bike has more lights than an Xmas tree, and I have all the dayglo I can get. But I still don't rely on the other guy, ever. The simple rule there is to assume the rest of them (including the cyclists) are out to kill you. It works a treat on the streets. I'm afraid I have a similar attitude to piste riding; after a while it's just a habit.

That's an interesting analogy - "the rules" are generally in my favour when cycling too, but I don't for a second think that's going to help me there either.

[photodad2001]

You are delusional, but you enjoy it. :rolleyes:

I know this and have avoided engaging you for a while now, but this is too much.

I have come around to Bob's recent rants about people who post when they don't know what they are talking about.

Let's help other riders, not fill their heads with crap.

I knew it!!! It just kills you to see others agree that you are wrong and I am right. It's like how no matter what certain polititians say there's a extreme pundit out there to tear them down whether they are right or wrong. It's only because they are the one saying that makes it wrong in their oppinion. Vote photodad in 2014!!!:):):)

[Buell]

If you are looking uphill, that means you are taking your eyes off of downhill traffic, and I don't want to be held responsible for ramming into someone downhill from me because I was looking uphill.

The argument above is bad for two reasons. One is that you should not be carving that close to other riders and you are riding beyond your abilities if you cannot look uphill to see who is coming.

Number two is that one of my worst moments on a carve board was exactly because I was not paying attention behind me and only in front of me.

I was coming up on a kid and her parents as the run narrowed. I had plenty of room to get around them without issue. I was not paying attention behind me however. As I started to pass them, we were descended upon by 3 straightliners on both sides. I got forced hard to the right suddenly, and I came within a foot of taking out the little girl. If I had known they were coming I would have pulled off to the side.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

National Ski Patrol Responsibility Code

redundant post alert!!

•Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.

•People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.

•You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.

•Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.

•Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.

•Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.

•Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload

I also agree with Buell and others that being as aware as possible of your surroundings is key.

Even if it is their fault, it doesn't make the injury more important or painful.

Side note: Few seem to recognise that even though the ski area has a strong nearly iron clad defense from responsibility.

The skier's and snowboarder's are NOT immune. It is very similar to driving a car. Hit someone from behind, YOUR FAULT.

Fail to use good judgement and injury someone. Well, you may find yourself in court and loose everything.

For some reason folks take on the mentality that it is "Open season" and a "Free for all". Far from it. You ARE liable!!!

[Buell]

I knew it!!! It just kills you to see others agree that you are wrong and I am right. It's like how no matter what certain polititians say there's a extreme pundit out there to tear them down whether they are right or wrong. It's only because they are the one saying that makes it wrong in their oppinion. Vote photodad in 2014!!!:):):)

I don't think you are doing a good job of countering my statement that you are delusional.

Who exactly is agreeing with you that a carver cannot check uphill on a regular basis for other riders while carving? Can you list them for me?

If you were a better carver, you would know that I am not wrong.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Have carvers ever considered as a group wearing something of e.g. a certain dayglo that the masses will learn to identify, and which could be flagged up at the resorts until the public learn it?

Stunning Videos to music maybe (provided free by the carving community), making them aware of how carvers use the slope; e.g. in the cafe or wherever. ..Could end up with more folk carving, cheaper kit, better grooming, and more specialist venues.

They've had a deal of success in the UK making 4 wheel drivers aware of motorcyclists with posters reminding drivers to look out for us/ reminding them that we will often rapidly be in and out of (or dead in), their zone of influence before they are aware of it. If their brains are already primed, and there is a public acceptance of the vulnerability of carvers, and carvers are easy to spot, maybe things would improve.

Interesting and clever concept. Perhaps hard to implement, yet clever none the less.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

My goggles are so scratched up I can't see uphill or downhill and most slopes and speeds are beyond my ability.

I know where your next 20$ should be spent. Don't get hurt due to poor inexpensive equipment. That would be a real shame.