Another: "He turned right in front of me!" post

[bumpyride]

One short word that could distort what we do as Negligent.

LAWYERS

If corporations can now be considered to have same rights as humans, why would anyone presuppose that a lawyer couldn't argue that we are out of the acceptable norm for slopeside behavior.

Really take a look at the videos of carvers coming across the slope and see how many other borders/skiers do the same. We take pride in those cross slope high speed turns, that skiers can't hardly replicate.

Was at Crystal and I figure there was about 5000 skiers/borders. I saw 2 hardbooters--my son and me. That figures out to be .0004%. Sometimes I have seen as many as 4 on the slope at one time.

[photodad2001]

I don't think you are doing a good job of countering my statement that you are delusional.

Who exactly is agreeing with you that a carver cannot check uphill on a regular basis for other riders while carving? Can you list them for me?

If you were a better carver, you would know that I am not wrong.

I do believe I stated that even I check up hill half way down (on a 300ft. vertical hill), but the 2-5 carves you are talking about is BS. Let's see, a list of those who agree with me (that you shouldn't be required to look behind you THAT MUCH: OhD, queequeg, carvedog (indirectly by agree with those who agree with me), BlueB had a similar experience and responded the same way I did so you could say by example he agrees with me, jp1, Vapor (indirectly), ...you have been reading other peoples posts haven't you? I know, just prove me wrong by showing your argument in action. Take your time and go through the vast number of videos on here and show me just how much we as carvers look behind us. Maybe put together an instructional video showing us the proper frequency for backwards glances.

[softbootsurfer]

Here in Aspen...for those coming to SES

Ever notice how certain people do not follow the Rules?

Great someone takes you out from behind and your smiling on your way to the emergency room because you get to Sue them...

I look up the hill almost every turn as I am heading across the slope, a split second to

be safe is all it takes...If not I would have been killed or maimed boarding many years ago...

[SteveInOregon]

I will pull the pin on the smoke grenade when I start a run for all the up hillers behind me to see me, and honk the air horn continuously for all the down hillers to hear me coming, LOL that should solve this issue , lol:lol:

[trailertrash]

I don't think you are doing a good job of countering my statement that you are delusional.

Who exactly is agreeing with you that a carver cannot check uphill on a regular basis for other riders while carving? Can you list them for me?

If you were a better carver, you would know that I am not wrong.

I don't see what his problem is, it doesn't cost money to look up hill. I could see him complaining if it did though.

[Buell]

I do believe I stated that even I check up hill half way down (on a 300ft. vertical hill), but the 2-5 carves you are talking about is BS. Let's see, a list of those who agree with me (that you shouldn't be required to look behind you THAT MUCH: OhD, queequeg, carvedog (indirectly by agree with those who agree with me), BlueB had a similar experience and responded the same way I did so you could say by example he agrees with me, jp1, Vapor (indirectly), ...you have been reading other peoples posts haven't you? I know, just prove me wrong by showing your argument in action. Take your time and go through the vast number of videos on here and show me just how much we as carvers look behind us. Maybe put together an instructional video showing us the proper frequency for backwards glances.

So that would be:

OhD

queequeg

carvedog

BlueB

JP1

Vapor

I wonder if they would actually agree that looking over your shoulder every 2-5 carves is BS and cannot be done.

You haven't actually been reading other post yourself, have you (typical). But it is moot anyway. Only inexperience carvers could disagree that, if you don't know what is behind you, you are taking a significant risk.

Ride how you want. Best of luck.

Buell

[KingCrimson]

I didn't call myself a decent carver until I looked uphill the whole time..It's where I'm going anyway!

My rate of descent, even on a 16m board, is slower than pretty much everyone, and as I change edges, the head flip is all the verification I need. Seriously, I feel more insecure looking downhill than up. I can spot where the board is taking me, and I know I can slam on the brakes should a straightliner head at me.

[BobD]

Have carvers ever considered as a group wearing something of e.g. a certain dayglo that the masses will learn to identify, and which could be flagged up at the resorts until the public learn it?

Stunning Videos to music maybe (provided free by the carving community), making them aware of how carvers use the slope; e.g. in the cafe or wherever. ..Could end up with more folk carving, cheaper kit, better grooming, and more specialist venues.

They've had a deal of success in the UK making 4 wheel drivers aware of motorcyclists with posters reminding drivers to look out for us/ reminding them that we will often rapidly be in and out of (or dead in), their zone of influence before they are aware of it. If their brains are already primed, and there is a public acceptance of the vulnerability of carvers, and carvers are easy to spot, maybe things would improve.

There's lots of psychology going into road safety in the UK, which is one reason why, that despite smaller roads, higher speeds, and far greater traffic density, the fatal and serious injury rate is half that of the US, BUT there is a huge difference between carvers and cyclist in the UK. They have a entrenched legal right to a right of way. We on the other hand, if identified as a group with higher risk, and not of fiscal significance, could be easily banned from ski resorts.

However, I do think carving in general, on skis and boards is at a stage where the responsibility code needs review. We could never have much impact on the establishment, but now so many skiers are also carving large arcs, things are different. Locally, skier recognition of carving safety has seen marked improvement. A couple years ago it was common to see skiers colliding, or having near misses, as they carved wider turn shapes. That is becomming far less common.

The problem will always be the once or twice a season warrior, who just wants to bomb the hill. No amount of responsibility code will dissuade these types.

BobD

[Buell]

Just went through the thread.

Unfortunately for queequeg, I have to give you that one.

The others you mention as agreeing with you, I only see them saying that they look up hill often, or they don't address looking up hill at all.

This is not helping my impression of you and your opinion.

Again, ride how you want, just don't promote it as smart.

Right of way has to be simple and unambiguous, or people will get confused and make bad decisions. This was thought through when the Skiers Responsibility Code was formulated and adopted by the NSAA (http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/heads_up/know_the_code.asp).

The first four rules, printed on the lift tickets and signage at most member resorts, are simple and unambiguous:

1. Always stay in control.
   
2. People ahead of you have the right of way.
   
3. Stop in a safe place for you and others.
   
4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.

There is nothing conditional about any of these. They are generally couched in the agreement for use of the facilities. Buying a ticket legally implies that you agree to abide by these rules.

If you air blind off a roller in a run, you are out of control from the moment you leave the ground until you have landed and can avoid anything that might be in your path. If you hit someone who's parked, fallen or cruising slowly below the roller, you are at fault if only because you violated two rules to their one. They are violating #3 if just sitting there (and I, for one, make a point of stopping and warning folks I find doing so - just let them know they aren't visible from above and might be in danger - that usually gets them moving) but the uphill party has no way to know WHY they are there so has no justification for hitting them on the basis that they were at fault.

If you hit someone ahead who's just cruising down the hill, visible, under control and already in the same run, there's no excuse at all.

Riding across a slope is violating none of these rules, as long as you aren't entering the run from the side (from another run, cat-track, or just from a stop at the edge or in the trees), in which case #4 would apply.

A lift line should be a safe place to stop. Anyone making it unsafe should be banished by the management, or if they won't, by local law enforcement. A citizen's arrest would be entirely justifiable, IMHO, in the case of a collision.

That said - I look uphill a lot. Similar to Buell every few turns just as I coming on toeside. And it's not a "look" up the hill for me as much as a quick flick of the eyes. Almost peripherally sometimes just to make sure and cha, cha, cha.

Phil's pretty much on the money. Segregation is bad. It could backfire on us, as a group, big time.

I admit that sometimes after a few fast turns I stop looking uphill. Somehow your own speed can lure you into feeling that no one would catch up. Then suddenly the "bomber" that was just a dot on top of the hill, when I started the run, is zooming by...

Yup, more signs and more awareness would be good.

I believe that the small print on the tickets, at most resorts, says something about "...I declare that I red and understand the Skiers' Code..."

photodad2001, " I'm telling you carvers are growing in number. I know 2 of the instructors at my hill carve and I've seen at least 7 different guys out there this year and still haven't ran into some of the guys from last year I saw. There's a storm a brewin'. When we get more and more guys going cross slope these incidents are going to start to pile up and resorts are going to feel the need to do something about it."

Have to agree with you, be it on ski's or boards, more and more people getting into turning and Carving :).

I'm seeing some 'sweet turns' at the local hill. Resorts have Parks, Pipes, and SLOW areas, why not have a Carving Area?

One trail marked for 'Turning & Carving ONLY, No Straightliners'.

Send the Straightliners to the Tubing Lanes where they have less chance of making any turns and can be less dangerous to others.

The patrollers on Big White call cheap fri night femur fri.Basicly yahoos that dont have a clue come up and cause havoc.

Good that you brought up the downhill thing with then but it prob fell on deaf ears as they sounded like the type where they are always right.

More carving on the slope means more people are exposed to it and know how to deal with the situation. What needs to happen is in serious situations where people are put out of commision because of negligence the patrollers/skihill need to step in and take action.

[dingbat]

Yes, the downhill rider has the right of way.

Yes, the uphill rider is resposible for avoiding the downhill rider.

Regardless of these facts, if you don't look out for yourself, you may not deserve it, but you're still going to get what you've got coming to you.

If you don't want to look out for yourself, god bless you and good luck with that.

(Photodad,

None of this changes the fact that those guys who hit your daughter were a bunch of punk a** b*****s that were in the wrong.)

[photodad2001]

So that would be:

I wonder if they would actually agree that looking over your shoulder every 2-5 carves is BS and cannot be done.

Buell

The evolution of what you "quote" me of saying is really amazing. So for the record, now I am saying, and correct me if I am misquoting you, that... "it cannot be done". Man, I'd think I was a terrible carve too if that was what I believed was being said. It is very possible to look up hill, but at the rate you are talking, taking that much attention away from where you are going begins to make you a risk to people down hill from you, who, I'm sure aren't looking up hill as often as you are. And let me state again, and as you have failed to be able to have this sink in without me placing it in the most obvious way.... Now here is the original post you got so worked up over as being that this is crap that I'm fill other peoples head with...

I disagree to a point about the need to constantly keep looking up hill. When I start my run, I wait till I know I'm going to be the only one going at that time and maybe after about half way down or so I may glance back a second time but I'm going to spend most of my attention downhill where I am going, and where it is supposed to be so I don't take out any people I may be passing.

Let me point out again parts you may have missed from another post...

I'd be stopping at spots down the way too, but with a 300ft. vertical you are probably riding further before you stop than I when I take the whole run from top to bottom.

I can only make 13 arching carves from top to bottom so half way seems to be a good place to take a glance wouldn't you say? This IS straight from what I've already said before.

Now if I was out west on a 2+ mile run I'd check more than once, but these quarter of a mile runs I'm on one look back should be more than enough.

This is what you've spent so much time and effort fighting. I DO look back, but again, every 2-5 carves?

2?!

[Ear dragger]

looking uphill when riding is ok once in a while in my mind. It just makes it sort of unsafe for me to choose my line at speed. I totally agree that being aware of you're surroudings is very important, which is exactly why I don't ride with head phones in.

Some times i can hear someone come up on my, sometimes not. I've been hit once very hard on the widest possible trail. I looked uphill before I started to carve, and looked up occasionally in the toe side. but all of a sudden, wham! It's just a matter of luck sometimes.

Looking uphill every other turn or what ever is just another way of riding unsafe. Riding is all about everything around you. It just happens that people just can't judge our turns, and or don't want to and think they can slide by.

squash the pissing match, it's painful to read all the bs

[Puddy Tat]

I sit and listen to music until all is clear. I praise God for allowing me to be on an abandoned slope with the perfect tool and then without worrying or looking up hill I create "The Trench". The kid swallower. The one that will be there all afternoon. The one that bad skiers will complain about.

I love this quote! It needs to be overlaid on a poster-sized shot of some impeccable groom with a deep curving trench in it.

Dave

[photodad2001]

Looking uphill every other turn or what ever is just another way of riding unsafe.

squash the pissing match, it's painful to read all the bs

Absolutely! And consider it over!!!

[Buell]

The .............................................2?!

That was quite a smoke screen pd. What happened to all your support?

A few years ago I was complaining to a much more experienced carver about almost getting hit. He said, "You have to look uphill more." He was right. It is extremely rare now that I almost get hit.

Don't continue to insist that it is not possible to look uphill every 2 to 5 turns just because you have not learned to do it. Ride how you want but do not endanger other people with your horrible advice when you don't know what you are talking about.

[photodad2001]

That was quite a smoke screen pd. What happened to all your support?

A few years ago I was complaining to a much more experienced carver about almost getting hit. He said, "You have to look uphill more." He was right. It is extremely rare now that I almost get hit.

Don't continue to insist that it is not possible to look uphill every 2 to 5 turns just because you have not learned to do it. Ride how you want but do not endanger other people with your horrible advice when you don't know what you are talking about.

Sorry, I made a promise to Ear dragger so, you're right, you win.

[tahoetrencher]

You realize that not looking uphill every 2-5 cycles is as smart as riding with headphones.

It doesn't matter if the slope was empty last look- they come out of the trees to get you!

[Buell]

looking uphill when riding is ok once in a while in my mind. It just makes it sort of unsafe for me to choose my line at speed.

I said this earlier:

It is not that hard to look uphill every 2 to 5 turns (situation dependent). If you cannot do it, you are probably riding slopes or speeds that are over your ability.

I've been hit once very hard on the widest possible trail. I looked uphill before I started to carve, and looked up occasionally in the toe side. but all of a sudden, wham! It's just a matter of luck sometimes.

Sometimes you may miss them coming, but you really cannot look at the collision and see anything you could have done better?

Looking uphill every other turn or what ever is just another way of riding unsafe.

Wow.

[photodad2001]

You realize that not looking uphill every 2-5 cycles is as smart as riding with headphones.

It doesn't matter if the slope was empty last look- they come out of the trees to get you!

Actually the original point to the thread was making those who don't follow the code more responsible, not passing the buck to those who are following the code. Again, I promised Ear dragger this part of the argument was over so if you'd like to argue that those that don't ride in control or give those down slope the right of way shouldn't be properly dealt with that's fine I'll argue that with you but no more "looking behind you" posts. Thanks.:D

[Buell]

Actually the original point to the thread was making those who don't follow the code more responsible, not passing the buck to those who are following the code. Again, I promised Ear dragger this part of the argument was over so if you'd like to argue that those that don't ride in control or give those down slope the right of way shouldn't be properly dealt with that's fine I'll argue that with you but no more "looking behind you" posts. Thanks.:D

You are King!

[photodad2001]

I said this earlier:

It is not that hard to look uphill every 2 to 5 turns (situation dependent). If you cannot do it, you are probably riding slopes or speeds that are over your ability.

Sometimes you may miss them coming, but you really cannot look at the collision and see anything you could have done better?

Wow.

Still not out of gas? Maybe you could look for a forum of victims of DUI crashes and you can tell them how they could've done something better to have avoided that drunk on the road and how no matter how drunk the other person is it's their responsibility to make sure they don't get hit. Be sure not to say anything negative about the drunk either.

[photodad2001]

You are King!

I have a dream!!!

[Buell]

Still not out of gas?

Not when dangerous advice is still being posted.

[BlueB]

Actually the original point to the thread was making those who don't follow the code more responsible, not passing the buck to those who are following the code.

Actually, he's kinda right with this statement.

At no stage, uner no circumstances, we (as a group) should allow anyone to imply or even to start thinking, that the way we ride is in contravention of the Alpine Code and that uphill person should, somehow, magically, have the right of way.

Irrespective of that, the self-preservation common sense should still apply. Follow the Code AND do whatever is possible to protect yourself.

[photodad2001]

Not when dangerous advice is still being posted.

Well there goes my idea for my next thread!!!