John E Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 I did a search on this but to no avail. Wasn't sure what keywords to use. I assume this topic has been discussed before. Maybe discussed to death & maybe a very contentious issue. My question is this: Is the pinnacle of carving technique to touch the snow with hands / body etc. on the inside of the carve or not? If there is a thread on this, please point me to it. At my level of carving, it is not really an issue. I don't get low enough for this to be a concern to me. I aspire to be able to decide this for myself. As I watch fellow carvers, I note that some virtually rub their bodies on the snow with each turn, others do not. I realize this is a question of style - not a right or wrong. I'm sure it also dictates how often one has to replace one's clothing (gloves, etc). In my mind's eye, if I were the best carver I could be, I would ALMOST (but not quite) touch the snow on each turn. This would imply that my center of gravity was going right through the edge - not inside, not outside. It seems to me that if one were to err on the side of caution, it would be better to touch rather than have your center of gravity go outside the edge and risk going over the high side. Can of worms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladia Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 You bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkaholic Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 I aspire to be able to decide this for myself. Above is your answer and you came up with it all by yourself. Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crucible Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 When it comes to scraping your palms and hips on the snow, I try to stay as close to the snow as I can without actually making contact. The reasons for this are two fold- I don't have the core flexibility to actually touch my toes, let alone the ground while carving, and I also hate having to patch up my gloves and snowpants on a regular basis.... Some of the guys that I ride with have no problem with the patching up their gear- my buddy Doug Wong has mittens that are so well covered in multiple layers of duct tape that they look like oven mitts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban Carving Gooding Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 I touch the SNOW keep it clean everyone. But some Snow/grooming conditions are not good to touch. So on those days I try to get as close as possible without touching. Its A blast ether way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 No it isn't. But if I'm low enough that the snow is right there anyway, I don't have a problem with touching it as a feeler for how far over I am. Motorcycle racers touch their knee to the pavement for similar reasons. But it is not the goal. Reaching down for the snow will put you in a bad position. <img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/profile/h1.jpg" width=600> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 No it isn't. But if I'm low enough that the snow is right there anyway, I don't have a problem with touching it as a feeler for how far over I am. Motorcycle racers touch their knee to the pavement for similar reasons. But it is not the goal. Reaching down for the snow will put you in a bad position. What Jack said... ... I also think that the ability to get low without touching is something to strive for. Me, I'm still working on it. I do it easily on moderate pitches but get me on something steep, and I invariably panic and overdo it, and wind up with one or both hands on the snow as well as a hip on heelside and a kneecap and/or side of thigh on toeside. TThe combination of laying it over hard and dragging body parts slows me down. What I *should* be doing is initiating the turn faster so I don't have to lay it over so much... more cross-through, less cross-over. Now, I'm not reaching for the snow with my hands/arms when doing this... but I am not getting into the new turn quick enough so I over-compensate very soon afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Wear the snow like a badge of honor! Especially when it is stuffed entirely up your jacket sleeve, and the mittens have bare patches and torn stitching :D * but it all depends on the quality of snow and conditions. Ride appropriately for the slope and style. Then again, I'm constantly pushing the envlope and end up wearing a snowsuit full. I like showing up at the bottom covered in snow. It keeps me smiling being "in touch" with Mothernature :D IMHO if you are not falling atleast twice a day from the height of ~12 inches off the snow and sliding out, yer not really riding hard enough to get any better than you were the previous time you were out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Ahh if its that close then touch it. Bad habit for some like Jack said is reaching for the snow, or putting yer hand down and putting pressure on it. For some its a style thing, for me I get low enough to touch but my best turns seem to be when I dont touch, just inspect the surface from close proximity :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colintkemp Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 +a lot, for not "reaching" for the snow. I do tend to let my hand dust the snow if (as in Jack's photo - classic shot) it is right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Touch, or better "contact" either happens or not, but do not reeeeeeaaaach IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me jack Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 i usually do not touch the snow. but i fallow a more "race carve" style. although once in a while my hand will brush the snow on toe side. but that has only happens on a very fast part of a race course. ... idk i'm glad you posted this cause it's a very debatable topic. ... not to thread jack you but while we're on a similar subject; whats the difference between a push pull method of carving vs a typical cross through? i'm guess that has a more definitive a answer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terekhov Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 my ideal: not touching surface but being 1cm over it in a carve. placing any of body weight on any body parts touching surface - like in some full-laid styles - is a complete no-no and loss of dynamic and fun in riding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I think this article sums up pretty nicely... ;) Inclination vs. Angulation By Dan Bogardus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I've got into the bad habit of dragging a hand in the snow, kind of like a training wheel, in case I lose the edge or throw my weight too far to the inside too early in the turn. It's already caused me to twist my front shoulder a couple of times when I hit soft snow so I've got to work on not doing that. Hover = ok Leaning on it = cheating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Agree with Jack. Reaching for snow is bad form (hard not to do when you think your chin is going to eat it). Let the snow come to you. Best sensation for me is when the snow graze the body/knee/hand(effleurer in French is a better word, can't find the translation, EDIT hover is good) without pressure and you're just floating above the cords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slider32 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I've seen quite a few painful injuries as a result of people putting their hands down. Had a buddy pull off his mitten after digging a hand into a soft patch of snow to discover a badly dislocated finger one time. Get close but keep the hands off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Karvlow Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 All good points...........how about this if it works for you, do it. example: Jack, or Ack-no as I affectionately call him. (inside joke) ride two WAY different styles. what works for Jack is not comfortable for me and vise-versa. but we both can ride the same hills, same pitch ect.ect.ect. so try everthing people tell you, but keep what works for YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 :D Helmut definitely gets it done, and he is going for two-handed second base with the snow on every turn. However there is touching the snow and then there is reaching down for the snow. The mystery photos in this article are examples of an unbalanced position. Butt in the air, bent over at the waist, reaching down. No match for ice or bumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 No touch. The no touch style looks way cooler, even magical. When other people see you mere inches, or even centimeters from the ground, but you get up without touching it... Yeah, they like that. As do I, when I do it. Like it's said in the carvers almanac, Whereas in other sports, great athletes make it look easy, in carving, great carvers make it look impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbass Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 What Jack said... What I *should* be doing is initiating the turn faster so I don't have to lay it over so much... more cross-through, less cross-over. Now, I'm not reaching for the snow with my hands/arms when doing this... but I am not getting into the new turn quick enough so I over-compensate very soon afterwards. I've been trying to figure this out. What is the difference between a Cross-through and a cross-over? Does anyone have example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Like it's said in the carvers almanac, Whereas in other sports, great athletes make it look easy, in carving, great carvers make it look impossible. completely disagree. I can think of many riders here who make it look effortless. Paul K, Eric J, GeoffV, ~tb, Arcrider, the list goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I've been trying to figure this out. What is the difference between a Cross-through and a cross-over? Does anyone have example? http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/cross_over.cfm Cross-through is basically cross-under for fast, GS sized turns. If you're too low to do cross-under, you do cross-through. Basically you start to rise up like the beginning of a cross-over, but only enough to complete the transition with a cross-under move. Hence, "cross-through". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 touching, whether is be a hand, hip or knee, wears out your clothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 touching, whether is be a hand, hip or knee, wears out your clothing Carving wears out your edges, just to be devil's advocate. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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