Riding with 60+ angles?

[Sultan Guy]

OK, so yesterday I setup my Donek FC1 for my first time having been just learning on the Prior 4WD. This board has an 18cm waist and with my 28 size feet I had to install the plates at 62F/60R to avoid any overhang.

Board was practically unridable for me. Just could not get any leverage. Dropped it back down to 55F/50R and this problem went away and it felt much better.

How many people here use angles of 60+?

Any extra tips on stance width or canting to help with these high angles?

On the Prior I ride 50F/45R and it feels great. I have a size 32 inch inseam, and usually setup at about 19.5"-20" stance.

[Hans]

I ride about 65 degrees on my Tinklers and in the 70/80 range on my Cyborg.

If the angles become bigger than 55, I use a 3 degree disk in the back (TD3).

Flat in the front. Under 55 I ride flat back and front.

With the high angles you don't need that much to rotate the upper body as with moderate angles. Just shift your bodyweight to the side and cross-under.

That's how I ride them.

Just my 2 cents.

[pebu]

Both of my rides are front foot at 60-62 degrees, and that's just with my MO26 raichles. Maybe it's the snow I ride, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I still get some heel drag if I don't set my bindings up just right. I've just been driving with the knees and dropping my hip and been getting good reaction.

This brings up another some-what of an issue though. I mean, I love the idea of the td3sw, but I'm a little concerned, If you're riding upwards of 60 degrees or more, aren't you going to lose that edge control? It seems like an ideal setup would be for the axis of the pivot to be straight across the board. Of course it would be one hell of a project, from the design point of view.

[tex1230]

I ride mid- to - high 60's

try widening your stance and adding a little cant to the rear foot (I ride 6 degrees rear, 3 degrees front, mostly heel/toe lift) - just experiment a bit.

never had a problem getting leverage...but I've been riding those angles for a long time...

[Jack M]

Angles of 60 plus are fairly common, and if you ride them right it's not a problem. I'm at 58 degrees now on a 21cm wide board and I prefer it, but I used to be at 66 degrees on an 18cm wide board. It was no problem for carving, but not so good for all-mtn riding. You have to remember that at these angles turning becomes more of a side-to-side motion, and less of a "frontside/backside" motion. And forget about kicking the tail of the board around to skid turns. You will have an easier time once you figure out how to turn (carve or skid) without swiveling at the waist. Think board and body turn as one. One test is when you go for a heelside turn, does your front hand swing across the front of the board to the toeside of the board? You want to avoid this.

[Dave ESPI]

I tend to never get under 55 degrees on anything, and have been as high as 78. Big feet are a curse in this sport, so you have to change your ride style greatly to accomodate such.

+1 to what Hans said.

And I think riding a TD3sw anything higher than 60 degrees could potentialy be very dangerous and could cause some very squirely unintended undulations with board movements at inopertune moments, but again, I have not played with them yet (hope to @ses) so it may just be an irrational fear and have no merit.

[Thor VonRippington]

And I think riding a TD3sw anything higher than 60 degrees could potentialy be very dangerous and could cause some very squirely unintended undulations with board movements at inopertune moments, but again, I have not played with them yet (hope to @ses) so it may just be an irrational fear and have no merit.

There isn't enough movement for this to happen. There is slightly less movement than riding a F2, Ibex, or any other 5mil bail binding. If you've been in a 6mil bail (especially a step in) for a long time, this movement seems foreign and unnecessary on paper. Give them a spin and you will find a smooth ride that allows for adjustments in body positions as the surface of the snow warrents... not floppy binding movements you must compensate for

I ride the TD3SW at 63/60 on a 17 wide board

It's by far the best set up I've ever riden... stable, precise, and more power than any 5mil bail binding

[tex1230]

And I think riding a TD3sw anything higher than 60 degrees could potentialy be very dangerous and could cause some very squirely unintended undulations with board movements at inopertune moments, but again, I have not played with them yet (hope to @ses) so it may just be an irrational fear and have no merit.

Now I know why Bob gets irritated with you...paranoid speculation when you have no clue what you're talking about.

:smashfrea:smashfrea

[Thor VonRippington]

... and now back to the subject at hand

try widening your stance and adding a little cant to the rear foot (I ride 6 degrees rear, 3 degrees front, mostly heel/toe lift) - just experiment a bit.

+1 for this advise

Sultan -

I usually don't comment when it comes to technique in riding but I have to agree with tex here. In my opinion, you first need to get your body parts to the proper positions which I think some cant/lift will help you accomplish especially at high angles. Someone besides me will have to help you get to the proper position... I just wont go there online. Once you have the body in proper position, then concentrate on what Jack is saying in post #5... you are changing pretty much everything in terms of how you turn the board, but the results when you get there will be quite blissful.

[Bobby Buggs]

Im going up into the 60 range this weekend on my 173 Volkl Rentiger. This will be a good test of my ability to adjust techniques. I will report what I felt and what I needed to adjust in my style to be successful

[Helmut Karvlow]

I ride around 78 front and 73 rear with just heal lift and have no trouble at all even on a 23 wide board. if I drop them down any more I feel sideways on the board. I have run those angles for around 12 years now.

[Jonny]

60-60 on both my 18cm boards. I've been as high as 66-63 and was even 60-66 for one demented day riding with a euro-trained maniac.

Catek step-ins with a fair amount of toe lift on the front and even more heel lift on the back, very slight inward cant on both and a fairly wide stance. It's not a particularly good setup for skidding around in a crowd and it's plumb awful for riding switch, but on moderate terrain it's very comfortable and balanced.

The key deal for me is to have my heelside and toeside turns feel more or less equally locked in and fluid. If I go too low with my back foot then toeside feels great - like a bottom-turn on a windsurfer - but with my limited flexibility I can't really carve heelside on hard snow without sticking my butt out.

If my quiver and budget allowed more riding out west I'd set up in the mid-50s on something around 22.

[johnasmo]

Just stick with it a while. It may not feel natural now, but your brain will sort it out. I'm size 29.5 and have a 175 mm waist Donek that I ride around 70. Feels good. Imagine you were on a Skwal. The steeper you go, the more manhandling the board around comes from your hips rather than legs. I shouldn't say it, but yes, it starts to look a bit like skiing. Don't tinker too much, leave your stance alone, don't bother with new disks yet, just give it time and I think you'll like it. Maybe lock you forward lean differently, but otherwise just enjoy adapting your technique.

[Dave ESPI]

Now I know why Bob gets irritated with you...paranoid speculation when you have no clue what you're talking about.

:smashfrea:smashfrea

I beg the pardon of the masses with a lack of first hand experience on TD3sw (untill SES) and they came up in conversation here. I clearly stated in my post I was not familliar with how they feel and ride. For the most part; virtualy all of us are unfamiliar with them as well. It is a discussion forum, and in such there is plenty of room to ask questions, and voice concerns.

Paranoid speculation? perhaps, but I have 9 stitches in my chin, and 2 cracked teeth from falling off a skateboard at high speed while experienceing an unstable gyration of the trucks from just such lateral movement that was too loose in settings, so forgive my concerns as they are indeed for personal reasons to be learly of movements that can easily become out of control under foot and act in unexpected ways when transitioning from edge to edge in steep angles as oposed to fore/aft rocker-motion that we would feel differently at angles around 45 or so.

Again, I'm not putting the cart before the horse and proclaiming I'm an equestrian guru here, just simply voicing a concern as a rider about a new technology being presented with the Bomber binding.

OP question about technique: I found decambering the board was of great importance in both heel and toeside turns. Bowing it and pinching the knees together and sitting on the tail while exiting turns at high binding angles would make riding steep angles easy, but on agressive diamond runs, it got a bit hairy when the treeline comes at you around 40 mph, so I would also have to load the nose initiating the next turn and pull the back leg up in and forward to the front knee. HTH.

[photodad2001]

I beg the pardon of the masses with a lack of first hand experience on TD3sw (untill SES) and they came up in conversation here. I clearly stated in my post I was not familliar with how they feel and ride. For the most part; virtualy all of us are unfamiliar with them as well. It is a discussion forum, and in such there is plenty of room to ask questions, and voice concerns.

Paranoid speculation? perhaps, but I have 9 stitches in my chin, and 2 cracked teeth from falling off a skateboard at high speed while experienceing an unstable gyration of the trucks from just such lateral movement that was too loose in settings, so forgive my concerns as they are indeed for personal reasons to be learly of movements that can easily become out of control under foot and act in unexpected ways when transitioning from edge to edge in steep angles as oposed to fore/aft rocker-motion that we would feel differently at angles around 45 or so.

Again, I'm not putting the cart before the horse and proclaiming I'm an equestrian guru here, just simply voicing a concern as a rider about a new technology being presented with the Bomber binding.

OP question about technique: I found decambering the board was of great importance in both heel and toeside turns. Bowing it and pinching the knees together and sitting on the tail while exiting turns at high binding angles would make riding steep angles easy, but on agressive diamond runs, it got a bit hairy when the treeline comes at you around 40 mph, so I would also have to load the nose initiating the next turn and pull the back leg up in and forward to the front knee. HTH.

Don't sweat it, it's just Tex being Tex. Sorry I haven't posted more to give him his daily dose of self-righteousness.:)

[Silver Bullet]

And I think riding a TD3sw anything higher than 60 degrees could potentialy be very dangerous and could cause some very squirely unintended undulations with board movements at inopertune moments, but again, I have not played with them yet (hope to @ses) so it may just be an irrational fear and have no merit.

I have 28 feet and set angles t0 70 front and 65 rear on a 18 cm board. I also use Sidewinders and love it.

[NateW]

Dropped it back down to 55F/50R and this problem went away and it felt much better.

Get comfortable riding 55/50, and then turn both angles up by 2 degrees, and get completely comfortable again. Repeat until you're at 65/60. I bet it works. :)

I had a board with a 17cm waist, it's been a couple years but I think I was running 65/60 on it. It felt weird at first, but it didn't take long to feel normal doing almost everything with that stance.

The exception: counter-rotation, such as when riding moguls, felt a little bit constrained. I still think that's a solvable problem, but I broke the board before I got completely comfortable riding it in moguls. At some point I will get another skinny board, and try to figure that out.

[BadBrad]

I ride a variety of angles depending on board width. On my Madd 158 I'm around 63/60, on the wider 4WD I'm at around 55/50, and the WCRM is in between. I have no problem switching from one to the other.

[Ear dragger]

setup is important, and if you can, add toe and heel lift. stay away from canting. you will lose energy that you should be putting into the board. I think that the higher angles are akward at first. like other people are saying, it takes time to get used to it.

My advice is set up the board at 62-65 range (front), then minus a couple of degrees for the back (3-5). maybe start with 3 heel lift and 3 toe. You will probably like the toe lift and may add more. I ride with 6 toe and 3 heel. It seems to make the legs feel under you're body, add some comfort, and increase control.

riding is different, my best advice would be treat you're legs as shocks (athletic position), and let the rest of you're body do the turning. Its kind of a rotation of the hips and the shoulders to make a turn. Don't forget the body will follow where you are looking. I'm no race coach, but I hope my:barf: helps a little.

[colintkemp]

Sultan Guy,

I think you are getting good advice here. Widen the stance some, add some toe and heel lift - give those a try. I think Tex said it once best about just "tinkering" with your stance - bring tools and mess around with the stance over a day on the mountain. On that note: I thought I would never ride with angles lower than 65 - higher angles felt better on my knees. Now, however, I ride my Kessler (180) at 61 or 62, and I absolutely love it. I know you are talking about riding higher angles and my comment is about me going to lower angles, but the point is take some time and experiment. Good luck.

Have a great season.

[BlueB]

I would give slightly different advise on the tinkering... While you are learning the technique, it could be counterproductive to keep on changing the setup, as you wouldn't know if the new sensations are due to the new settings or doing it right/wrong with the technique.

I would start by a lot of tinkering back at home, carving the carpet. Fiddle with it until you found a comfortable stance. The one that would let you stand there for 20 minutes without anything hurting or twisting in funny manner. Also the stance that would allow you a good range of motion, crouching, bending, rotating. Last but not least, it should allow for alligned feet/hips/shoulders, without any effort. Then to the slope...

Ride a bit. If nothing felt too awkward, you are in business. Otherwise, do a small tweek, one at the time. Then, stick to the setup for couple of days at least and learn to ride it.

As for the technique, as someone above said, higher the angles, more important the knees/hip drive becomes.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Have you hooked up with any local alpine riders??

Post on the PNW ride board. There are some great riders in your area.

Can you come down and visit Mt Hood or Mt Bachelor during the week?

Just a thought.

I ride steep angles, no worries. Yes, it does feel a bit strange at first.

Currently the general feeling is to ride as low an angle as the board/boot allows. Since this feels better to you, go with that.

Bryan

[bobdea]

I ride around 78 front and 73 rear with just heal lift and have no trouble at all even on a 23 wide board. if I drop them down any more I feel sideways on the board. I have run those angles for around 12 years now.

lol, sideways, that's what makes it snowboarding to me. I feel you though but just I come at it from the other way past 65 and I hate it.

[bobdea]

I beg the pardon of the masses with a lack of first hand experience on TD3sw (untill SES) and they came up in conversation here. I clearly stated in my post I was not familliar with how they feel and ride. For the most part; virtualy all of us are unfamiliar with them as well. It is a discussion forum, and in such there is plenty of room to ask questions, and voice concerns.

Paranoid speculation? perhaps, but I have 9 stitches in my chin, and 2 cracked teeth from falling off a skateboard at high speed while experienceing an unstable gyration of the trucks from just such lateral movement that was too loose in settings, so forgive my concerns as they are indeed for personal reasons to be learly of movements that can easily become out of control under foot and act in unexpected ways when transitioning from edge to edge in steep angles as oposed to fore/aft rocker-motion that we would feel differently at angles around 45 or so.

and espi just now went on to show tex how he really pisses me off. you back up really bad statements with even more far out logic.

he went and used a poor example showing him blaming the most common n00b skate accident on equipement.

it's called speed wobbles and generally speaking it's because your ankles and brain working against you and cause it not (usually) loose trucks. as master yoda has said fear is the mind killer. you can have trucks too loose but even then wobbles are kinda like dealing with ice patches. it's when you freak and tense up/freeze you get to kiss the ground at top speed.

not saying I have not done it, I still can't skate well but I know it when someone describes speed wobbles, we have all been there even if we've had only a few days skating.

http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/skateboard-safety-ride-hard-ride-safe-live-ride-another-day/57637-speed-wobbles-you.html

but yeah, unfounded fears about something pretty simple. but it was funny where you were asking michelle for just one, that was good. were you baiting again?

were you with your skate thing too?

on topic again, as my angles increase my lift does as well and overall alignment becomes much more important for me.

[Guest]

I have not played with them yet (hope to @ses) so it may just be an irrational fear and have no merit.

+1 to that.

Ride what is comfortable and within the board's parameters. Then just play around. I'm 5'6" and I ride a 22" stance with 57* 54*. It's all personal preference.